Ben Davis' NS deferment


Yappy

Senior Member
May 30, 2004
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Should Ben Davis' NS application for deferment be approved?
 

why not? what have Singapore got to lose? 1 less NS man. what can Singapore gain? first EPL player who could gives more inspiration than serving NS. also, what would the Army gain by forcefully recruiting a disgruntled teenager who sees his future evaporated in front of him.

anyway, he already holds British and Thai passports, and can just leave anytime, why not make use of him instead of just letting some one with potential leave for nothing?

he can always return to serve out his NS obligations after he soccer career around 35, since the age limit is 40, or once he screwed up and cannot make it in Europe's top leagues.

if Singapore have any ambitions of completing in the worldwide stage, then they should re-strategised, as professional football careers nowadays starts at 16-17 years old. imagine if Mabbpe, age 19, needs to serve NS and missed out on World Cup and becoming the youngest to score in a World Cup finals, then France may not have win the last World Cup tournament.

what would any members in here will do, if he or his kid face the same situation? would anyone really blame what Ben Davis' father did by threatening to give up SG Citizenship for the future of his son? or just resigned to fate, let his son finish NS, and maybe just be a pro in Singapore or just go Uni and end up working like everybody, wondering what would/could have happen if he can play in EPL for once in his life time...
 

why not? what have Singapore got to lose? 1 less NS man. what can Singapore gain? first EPL player who could gives more inspiration than serving NS. also, what would the Army gain by forcefully recruiting a disgruntled teenager who sees his future evaporated in front of him.


What SG lost is more than one NS man... what SG lost is the sense of fairness, and that anyone that has some skill and personal ambition... could skip/defer his/her national responsibility when they so chooses.... while others with less 'skills', will be expected to do their NS. I'll bet good money if Davis WASN'T going to play for some top EPL club... but instead some other football club in Malaysia, Indonesia or Thailand.... Singaporean won't have reacted so strongly as we did. If we minus the fact that he is playing for a top EPL Club... but instead lets said he is going to French and training to be a Street Poet... what would be your reaction ?? And further more... what are the percentage of willing, non-disgruntled teenager that serve NS yearly ?? You mean there us no one else who see NS as 'wasting' 2.5yrs of their live beside Davis ?? No one who wish to continue their education aboard ?? No one who wish to be doing something else... beside NS ?? Therefore... disgruntled or not... he'll have to serve, much like everyone else.


, he already holds British and Thai passports, and can just leave anytime, why not make use of him instead of just letting some one with potential leave for nothing?


And you don't see a problem with that ?? A Singaporean since he is 5yrs old... having passport from 2 other countries when dual citizenship is NOT allow in Singapore... and can use all the benefits, privileges and protection that comes with being a citizen... and yet can 'Leave' when it suits him or his family.... this, my friend, is why some Singaporean distrust non-local born Singaporean... and stereotype them as untrustworthy and is basically here just to make use of our system. Giving real immigrants to our country... a bad name. Therefore NO... he should be treated the same as everyone else... local born or foreign born, you follow our laws and rules if you live here... especially when NS Obligation is written in bold red letters when you applied for PR and/or Citizenship...


can always return to serve out his NS obligations after he soccer career around 35, since the age limit is 40, or once he screwed up and cannot make it in Europe's top leagues.


Again... if we minus the fact that he is going to play for some Top EPL Club and is going to be a street artist or poet... or even just to experience life fully when young.... are we going to defer everyone ?? I'll admit that I'm NOT a football or even much of a sport fan... therefore who he is playing for meant little to me... so, just by looking at the fact that he is playing for the Club... not for SG. Gaining fame for the Club... not for SG. Earning top $$$$ for himself.... not for SG. Is enough reason for me NOT to support his deferment...


Singapore have any ambitions of completing in the worldwide stage, then they should re-strategised, as professional football careers nowadays starts at 16-17 years old. imagine if Mabbpe, age 19, needs to serve NS and missed out on World Cup and becoming the youngest to score in a World Cup finals, then France may not have win the last World Cup tournament.


Ambition for Sports achievement must not come before Singaporean sense of Fairness or our National Obligation.... again, if he wasn't playing for a EPL Club... would the average Singaporean still be as emotional about the issue...


would any members in here will do, if he or his kid face the same situation? would anyone really blame what Ben Davis' father did by threatening to give up SG Citizenship for the future of his son? or just resigned to fate, let his son finish NS, and maybe just be a pro in Singapore or just go Uni and end up working like everybody, wondering what would/could have happen if he can play in EPL for once in his life time...


* As a father myself... I understand and have sympathy for their situation.
* As a Citizen... I expect those who live here, follows the law and rules of the land. Especially when you willingly took up Citizenship.
* As a Local Born Singaporean... Don't you even dare trying to blackmail me or the country because your son have skill. Quit and Migrate the F*** off if you want... but that would be after your Son, who have enjoy all the Benefits/Privilege/Protection as a Citizen, finish his national obligation...


PS... at the beginning of this Story... I have NO objection if MINDEF had approved his deferment, even when I think they shouldn't. But what harden my disagreement and p*sses me off, is when his father, in my mind, trying to blackmail/threaten the Nation with his attitude of simply having his son 'throw' his Citizenship for greener pastures. I would have more respect for Mr Davis if he had told his son to give up his citizenship and never return to SG quietly, away from Media attention... then the stereotyping of 'New-Citizen' as fair weather friends that would move on as soon as they find something better...


* Took me almost an hour during work to write and explain my thoughts... and all these, are just my own opinion. I'm sure someone else will have a difference opinion to mine... and thats alright. This will be my last reply as I have a full time job to do.
 

It is as simple as:

"Why stay if you don't like the place.. go and become a Super Star!

And GOOD LUCK!"
 

What SG lost is more than one NS man... ................................I have a full time job to do

My thoughts echo your words. Well said. I wonder what if one day we have to depend on citizens like these to defend and fight for Singapore at the risk of their lives, their possessions, and achievements..... Will they throw in their citizenship and disappear?
 

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diver-hloc: "What SG lost is more than one NS man... what SG lost is the sense of fairness, and that anyone that has some skill and personal ambition... could skip/defer his/her national responsibility when they so chooses.... while others with less 'skills', will be expected to do their NS. I'll bet good money if Davis WASN'T going to play for some top EPL club... but instead some other football club in Malaysia, Indonesia or Thailand.... Singaporean won't have reacted so strongly as we did. If we minus the fact that he is playing for a top EPL Club... but instead lets said he is going to French and training to be a Street Poet... what would be your reaction ?? And further more... what are the percentage of willing, non-disgruntled teenager that serve NS yearly ?? You mean there us no one else who see NS as 'wasting' 2.5yrs of their live beside Davis ?? No one who wish to continue their education aboard ?? No one who wish to be doing something else... beside NS ?? Therefore... disgruntled or not... he'll have to serve, much like everyone else."

me: But the fact is that he IS PLAYING FOR A EPL CLUB that makes it significant. because, so far in our short history, nobody, not even Fandi have the chance! Life is not fair, some are more talented, some are richer while most others, like me, are just plain normal.

Like if you said that what if he were to be a street poet, then its like comparing apples to durians, as one can go be a street poet anywhere anytime, there are no contracts, no time limit, so he can finish his NS and go wherever the F he want to sing and dance on any street he wants. totally missing the point.

but you agreed that 2.5yrs is a waste of a teenager life. To me, its not a waste of 2.5 years, I enjoyed it and would I like to do something else besides it, yes...I think as much as there are people who thinks its a waste of time, there are as much who thinks otherwise. about studying abroad, one can always do it after NS, I did that and I never miss a single ICT, even when there was once where I was called up twice in one workyear and never requested a deferment. and I was not even an officer. thats my obligation to my country, but that does not prejudiced me to be against Ben Davis' case.

diver-hloc: "And you don't see a problem with that ?? A Singaporean since he is 5yrs old... having passport from 2 other countries when dual citizenship is NOT allow in Singapore... and can use all the benefits, privileges and protection that comes with being a citizen... and yet can 'Leave' when it suits him or his family.... this, my friend, is why some Singaporean distrust non-local born Singaporean... and stereotype them as untrustworthy and is basically here just to make use of our system. Giving real immigrants to our country... a bad name. Therefore NO... he should be treated the same as everyone else... local born or foreign born, you follow our laws and rules if you live here... especially when NS Obligation is written in bold red letters when you applied for PR and/or Citizenship..."

me: Its a true fact that many immigrants are here to make use of our system. and why Singapore government did not demand that they surrender his other passports before giving him citizenship? (anyway, side fact, i am a first generation Singaporean and my parents came here before WWII, I am proud to be born and raise here) but what are "real immigrants"? Even the government put in millions to import sports talents, in a bid to help win medals for Singapore, in the end, the best was olympic silver and they promptly went back to where they came from, taking our tax money along. but our dear Schooling, the sacrifices his family had to make, despite seeing millions given to the FT...btw, I am not sure, but, did Singapore import any male sporting talents? did any of them win anything? did they go NS?

diver-hloc: "Again... if we minus the fact that he is going to play for some Top EPL Club and is going to be a street artist or poet... or even just to experience life fully when young.... are we going to defer everyone ?? I'll admit that I'm NOT a football or even much of a sport fan... therefore who he is playing for meant little to me... so, just by looking at the fact that he is playing for the Club... not for SG. Gaining fame for the Club... not for SG. Earning top $$$$ for himself.... not for SG. Is enough reason for me NOT to support his deferment..."

me: Why do you keep wanting to minus the fact of him playing in EPL? its like asking if Hitler is a good person if minus the fact of the Jews Genocide or if he becomes a painter instead of a dictator! and I have said earlier about being a street poet, so not repeating here. totally missing the point. also, can everyone get a EPL or any of top European leagues' club contract? it definitely not the same as "just to experience life fully when young". even if you are not a football or sports fan, how do you feel when Schooling won the nation's 1st ever Olympic gold medal? Ben Davis maybe playing in a foreign club, but what if he can lead the national team to greater glory because of his eventual exposure and experience gained there?

If he plays in a top European league, he will most definitely be in the national team, and that will have a positive effect, in terms of inspiration and leadership. many top players in Europe's national team don't play in their own national leagues, and they make their name in a top club level before becoming a national player.

and about earning money, well, of cause they keep what they earn. did Fandi share his earnings? Schooling? the FTs who won Olympic silver medal? do you earn money for SG or for yourself?

diver-hloc: "Ambition for Sports achievement must not come before Singaporean sense of Fairness or our National Obligation.... again, if he wasn't playing for a EPL Club... would the average Singaporean still be as emotional about the issue..."

me: what is "Singaporean sense of Fairness or our National Obligation"? heard of white horse? as above-mentioned, what about the FT imports for sport achievements? so it ok for them and not for local boys or non-white horse? and its precisely about playing for EPL, or any of top European leagues, that, in itself is an achievement that none in Asean have done before.

diver-hloc: * As a father myself... I understand and have sympathy for their situation.
* As a Citizen... I expect those who live here, follows the law and rules of the land. Especially when you willingly took up Citizenship.
* As a Local Born Singaporean... Don't you even dare trying to blackmail me or the country because your son have skill. Quit and Migrate the F*** off if you want... but that would be after your Son, who have enjoy all the Benefits/Privilege/Protection as a Citizen, finish his national obligation...


PS... at the beginning of this Story... I have NO objection if MINDEF had approved his deferment, even when I think they shouldn't. But what harden my disagreement and p*sses me off, is when his father, in my mind, trying to blackmail/threaten the Nation with his attitude of simply having his son 'throw' his Citizenship for greener pastures. I would have more respect for Mr Davis if he had told his son to give up his citizenship and never return to SG quietly, away from Media attention... then the stereotyping of 'New-Citizen' as fair weather friends that would move on as soon as they find something better...

* Took me almost an hour during work to write and explain my thoughts... and all these, are just my own opinion. I'm sure someone else will have a difference opinion to mine... and thats alright. This will be my last reply as I have a full time job to do.

me: thanks for your thoughts and since its your last reply, would not expect any replies from you, as you have a full time job, which I guess many here do as well. and I can see that you are most upset by his father trying to threaten/blackmail the country. Don't take it too personally, though I don't know his father, but its probably spoken out of desperation and love. Quietly or not, this issue will be exposed some how, especially if he makes it to be a top footballer and people will lament why did he went away.
 

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My thoughts echo your words. Well said. I wonder what if one day we have to depend on citizens like these to defend and fight for Singapore at the risk of their lives, their possessions, and achievements..... Will they throw in their citizenship and disappear?

its not only "citizens like these"...if there's a war and a call to arms, there will be born and bred citizens who had gone through NS that will go MIA. I managed NSmen, or reservists during my time, and there are people who shuns call-ups even in time of peace, for no good reasons. and I have seen many got caught and sent to DB because of that.
 

just a little something to share which I see is a fair comment...its quoted from someone which I will omit his name, so as not to be too political. anyone who wants to know the originator please PM me...

"Ben Davis was a graduate of the Singapore Sports School. He is an outstanding footballer. If we do not allow him to develop his skills and eventually encourage him to represent Singapore, then what was the point of setting up the sports school in the first place? That was set up to promote sporting excellence!
The very ordinary people that make up our government today have no idea how to handle the Extraordinary.
Ben Davis is one of our Extraordinary citizens and we should be facilitating his journey to be the best he can be in every way.
How many more of our Extraordinary talents lay on the wayside undeveloped and unsupported by our government today?
Why is this government only interested in having foreign mercenary sportsmen make up our First team while our own Singaporeans are benched!?

PS: I just read Tharman’s congratulatory message to the French Football team on winning the World Cup. He said the French footballing system was a fine example of how “ Every young person is encouraged and supported in developing his or her strengths “ . The irony of his message will not be lost on Singaporeans. He should be telling that to his colleague the Minister of Defence! No use commenting on the success of others if you can’t get your own house in Order!"
 

its not only "citizens like these"...if there's a war and a call to arms, there will be born and bred citizens who had gone through NS that will go MIA. I managed NSmen, or reservists during my time, and there are people who shuns call-ups even in time of peace, for no good reasons. and I have seen many got caught and sent to DB because of that.

I did not say they are the only ones or that only foreign citizens are like that. So you agreed with me on what kind of characters these are, just that there are more whether locals or foreign. Point is if they have no sense of responsibility and obligations, willing to make sacrifices, then how to rely on them?
 

I did not say they are the only ones or that only foreign citizens are like that. So you agreed with me on what kind of characters these are, just that there are more whether locals or foreign. Point is if they have no sense of responsibility and obligations, willing to make sacrifices, then how to rely on them?

I can't say for Ben Davis if he have any sense of responsibility and obligations. maybe he have and if he was not chosen to play in EPL, he might just serve NS dutifully or he might not. and as you have mentioned, it applies to new citizens as well as born and bred Singaporeans...for now, I shall reserve my judgement of his character, as I do not know him personally and its unfair to judge a person when one is prejudiced, do not have all facts and do not know that person personally.
 

I can't say for Ben Davis if he have any sense of responsibility and obligations. maybe he have and if he was not chosen to play in EPL, he might just serve NS dutifully or he might not. and as you have mentioned, it applies to new citizens as well as born and bred Singaporeans...for now, I shall reserve my judgement of his character, as I do not know him personally and its unfair to judge a person when one is prejudiced, do not have all facts and do not know that person personally.

Well, you are making the same speculation or assumption that IF he was not this and that or he will or will not do this or that.. The FACT is he has not fulfilled his obligations and responsibilities to serve in NS. What he did was to serve his own interests first and not the country's interest. He is only pursing fame and glory, for himself, not for the country. Thats why his request for deferment was rejected. In my books, If he cannot make a sacrifice over his job, he will never make a sacrifice with his life.
 

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Cases like this make me wonder why some people are so hungry, desperate for international fame and glory that they want to obtain them vicariously through someone else's personal ambitions and achievements. What has Ben Davis's achievement to do with Singapore? What has the country done to train and groom him to where he is now? What has his joining the footbal club anything to do with Singapore or Singaporeans? Just because he is a Singaporean and we are Singaporeans?

Fulfilling a person NS obligations makes HIS FUTURE EVAPORATES in front of him??? Makes it sounds like its doom and disaster to serve NS. Its only a two to two and a half years service and hundreds of thousands have gone NS without their future careers being stunted, much less destroyed. Fact is there are many talented Singaporeans and its right to be proud of their achievements. There are many talented in the sciences, arts, music, sports etc and their careers have not been affected, much less destroyed by serving NS. Some try to justify that this is the most crucial age and time for Ben Davis when his career is just starting. The same can be said for all other talented people. Now the justification for deferment is missed opportunity in a career, later it will be a complete waste when the success achieved has to be abandoned, to serve NS. So when will all the deferment end? Even Davis father cannot commit to a date when Davis will return and serve. Personal talents, ambitions, achievements, fame and glory is no cause for deferment if they do not serve the country.

As to what horse, white or black, they all have to serve NS. Even the Prime Minister had to serve NS. Equality and fairness is NOT about everybody having the same qualities, characteristics, possessions, wealth, rank, status, privilege etc We know these are and WILL NEVER be equal and depends on qualifications, abilities, opportunities etc. In the context of national service and under the law, all able bodied men has to serve and deferment is granted where they serve the country's interest in another capacity. I agree with what the Defence Minister explained on this issue.
 

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