Bad Trading Experience in Buy & Sell

[sandman]

A warning to all forum readers,

I have had a horrible experience experience dealing with Powerxu aka Xu Zhi Dao, a Chinese national who trades in the Clementi area.

I bought a Tokina 20-35 from him in early June. Upon trading, I told him that I will shoot with it and if I am not satisfied with the results, will contact him for an exchange back. He agreed and even said I could take up to a week. That was the one and only condition of the trade.

The prints came out and I found that the lens was not sharp enough for me. Emailed Xu Zhi Dao and he refused to return my money back, citing that a refund can only be due to mechanical or optical problems. I was rudely shocked and insisted we had an agreement to exchange back if I am not satisfied with the results. Again he refused, adding that even camera shops do not allow exchange once goods are sold.

I am appalled by the attitude of this person. How can conditions of a trade be added AFTER the trade? How shops or any other trade that occurs is subjected to the terms of the trade at the point of exchange. In this case, the only condition of I being dissatisfied with the results shot with this lens has been fulfilled and Xu Zhi Dao is defaulting on his end.

Perhaps I have been too presumptuous in this instance and should have the whole trade executed in writing, instead of a verbal agreement. A suggestion to future traders is to state clearly the terms of the trade in writing before committing to it. Apparently, there are people who have no integrity and whose understanding of the term "only" is of warped proportions.

The lens is now up for grabs. I do not want to be reminded of such a bane to society. Different people have different needs, if this lens is sufficient for your use, propose a transaction.

Powerxu aka Xu Zhi Dao is currently selling a Nikon EM+AI50/1.8+Tokina AT-X 28-85/3.5-4.5(MF) <showthread.php?threadid=36730> in Buy & Sell, please deal with him in writing.

 

[baiyun]

hmm...maybe a case of miscommunication? maybe to him, dissatisfied with results, means got problem with the lens optically or mechanically...

frankly,seldom sellers will agree to ur condition...in the 1st place...

 

[Goldmember]

Originally posted by sandman
if I am not satisfied with the results, will contact him for an exchange back

how much more did you pay for the "extra" assurance?

 

[zekai]

actually i think there is nothing wrong.

there can be many reason why the picture was blur.

it is very hard to refund based on not sharp enough picture.

you should try and shoot a few exposure before paying for it... provided it is an expensive purchase.

now you are giving negative remarks on his other sales publicy.
I think that is not very nice.

 

[denizenx]

go buy a new lens from a shop in US, they'll give u money back gtee...

 

[StreetShooter]

I remember dealing with a seller named Zhi Dao a few weeks ago. He had a Canon 16-35mm for sale at a good price. I met him at MacDonald's, tried out the lens, compared it with my fisheye, hummed and hawed, and in the end decided not to get it. I was pretty apologetic about it, and he took it very well, even though he had come down to Peninsula specially to meet me. Not pushy or anything at all. We had a nice chat about photography.

His English is not very good. I can testify to this. In all probability there was some miscommunication, his understanding of "not being satisfied" being limited to mechanical or optical defects, rather than lens performance issues. This is my humble opinion.

As someone pointed out, not many sellers would agree to your original terms, as you understood them. Put yourself in the seller's shoes - it would seem as if the buyer is taking advantage of the seller (eg if I wanted a free loan of a lens for a week). The asking price of the lens was $280, which is pretty cheap if you ask me. Not sure what the actual transaction price was. If I, as a seller, were to agree to these conditions, I would ask for a premium to cover the potential opportunity cost (ie someone else wanting to buy the lens).

Yes, shops in the US allow you to exchange or return if you are not satisfied with the product (and people DO take unfair advantage of this policy). But they are businesses, not second-hand sellers. Try that with an ebay seller.

 

[cyrilng]

Originally posted by sandman

The prints came out and I found that the lens was not sharp enough for me.

That's very subjective unless you are saying that the photos are unsharp due to some defect in the optics or mechanics of the lens.

I wouldn't agree to any such condition nor refund either if this were not the case.

As for US shops allowing money-back guarantees, apparently there is a lot of abuse of that by unscrupulous people as well as StreetShooter has said.

 

[sadness]

Originally posted by sandman
A warning to all forum readers,

I have had a horrible experience experience dealing with Powerxu aka Xu Zhi Dao, a Chinese national who trades in the Clementi area.

I bought a Tokina 20-35 from him in early June. Upon trading, I told him that I will shoot with it and if I am not satisfied with the results, will contact him for an exchange back. He agreed and even said I could take up to a week. That was the one and only condition of the trade.

The prints came out and I found that the lens was not sharp enough for me. Emailed Xu Zhi Dao and he refused to return my money back, citing that a refund can only be due to mechanical or optical problems. I was rudely shocked and insisted we had an agreement to exchange back if I am not satisfied with the results. Again he refused, adding that even camera shops do not allow exchange once goods are sold.

I am appalled by the attitude of this person. How can conditions of a trade be added AFTER the trade? How shops or any other trade that occurs is subjected to the terms of the trade at the point of exchange. In this case, the only condition of I being dissatisfied with the results shot with this lens has been fulfilled and Xu Zhi Dao is defaulting on his end.

Perhaps I have been too presumptuous in this instance and should have the whole trade executed in writing, instead of a verbal agreement. A suggestion to future traders is to state clearly the terms of the trade in writing before committing to it. Apparently, there are people who have no integrity and whose understanding of the term "only" is of warped proportions.

The lens is now up for grabs. I do not want to be reminded of such a bane to society. Different people have different needs, if this lens is sufficient for your use, propose a transaction.

Powerxu aka Xu Zhi Dao is currently selling a Nikon EM+AI50/1.8+Tokina AT-X 28-85/3.5-4.5(MF) <showthread.php?threadid=36730> in Buy & Sell, please deal with him in writing.

he sold the lens to u for?

 

[jesser]

Originally posted by sandman
A warning to all forum readers,

I have had a horrible experience experience dealing with Powerxu aka Xu Zhi Dao, a Chinese national who trades in the Clementi area.

I bought a Tokina 20-35 from him in early June. Upon trading, I told him that I will shoot with it and if I am not satisfied with the results, will contact him for an exchange back. He agreed and even said I could take up to a week. That was the one and only condition of the trade.

The prints came out and I found that the lens was not sharp enough for me. Emailed Xu Zhi Dao and he refused to return my money back, citing that a refund can only be due to mechanical or optical problems. I was rudely shocked and insisted we had an agreement to exchange back if I am not satisfied with the results. Again he refused, adding that even camera shops do not allow exchange once goods are sold.

I am appalled by the attitude of this person. How can conditions of a trade be added AFTER the trade? How shops or any other trade that occurs is subjected to the terms of the trade at the point of exchange. In this case, the only condition of I being dissatisfied with the results shot with this lens has been fulfilled and Xu Zhi Dao is defaulting on his end.

Perhaps I have been too presumptuous in this instance and should have the whole trade executed in writing, instead of a verbal agreement. A suggestion to future traders is to state clearly the terms of the trade in writing before committing to it. Apparently, there are people who have no integrity and whose understanding of the term "only" is of warped proportions.

The lens is now up for grabs. I do not want to be reminded of such a bane to society. Different people have different needs, if this lens is sufficient for your use, propose a transaction.

Powerxu aka Xu Zhi Dao is currently selling a Nikon EM+AI50/1.8+Tokina AT-X 28-85/3.5-4.5(MF) <showthread.php?threadid=36730> in Buy & Sell, please deal with him in writing.

May be next time you may wish to get a roll of film or your digital cam along to test out the lens you wish to get, develope the photo out and then decide if to buy it. save lottsa problem here.

 

[David]

Originally posted by cyrilng
As for US shops allowing money-back guarantees, apparently there is a lot of abuse of that by unscrupulous people as well as StreetShooter has said.

While I'd agree that such a system is subjected to abuse, it is generally more of an exception than the norm. If ever it happens, it's usually done by those US immigrants. I'm particularly wary of those from China, especially students. They are quick to see how to gain advantage. For eg, they'd buy camping equipment BRAND NEW, used it over the weekend and went back to the shop saying they didn't want it anymore. The policy in the US is such that they have a no questions asked money back guarantee. You can see this in almost anything, be it books, CDs, camera equipment, etc. That's just how gracious their society is. Not in Singapore though. I can imagine all the KS and shrewd Singaporeans abusing the system big time.

Trust me, if you are in the position of making a rash decision in buying something expensive and regretting your action later, this money back guarantee is a big relief. It's sort of a freedom of rights too. When these people return the goods they bought previously, it's really bcos they find they made a rash purchase, found something better, or that the product did not satisfy their needs/standards. It's not so much I buy it, use it and return so I don't have to pay a single cent in the process.

As for Sandman's case, I think it's too good to be true to have a money back policy. Well, at least not over here and between 2 strangers. Perhaps he should have made it very clear to the terms and conditions with the seller. Unless he or she is your close friend....

Well, much said, I'd be very wary in doing business with pple form China. Ok, I have to be honest, I'm quite biased with them. But to be fair, not all are like that. But generaly, I'd be wary...

 

[sandman]

"maybe to him, dissatisfied with results, means got problem with the lens optically or mechanically"
If such a problem exists, it is a physical defect, which should be declared beforehand. My condition of not being "not satisfied" covers a broader scope. So am I to be on the losing end because somebody has failed to grasp the geist of a mutual agreement?

I did not pay extra for the assurance as the issue was not brought up. If a seller demands a premium for money-back assurance, it will be taken into consideration at the point of trade.

If there was no such understanding, I would not have traded in the first place. Regardless of price, I paid hard cash for it, where's my guarantee of getting it back? Try looking at it from a genuine buyer's point of view to get a desired lens.

I have traded with sellers in Ebay US. 2nd hand with moneyback guarantee less shipping, individuals and not businesses. Its all about integrity, isnt it?

For testing the lens, a roll of Fuji 200 was run through it at focal lengths of 20, 24, 28 and 35. Each focal length had shots through it at progressive apertures. Tripod-mounted with cable release. Results were viewed through a loupe by 3 different individuals. All within 2 days of trade. Fair enough testing?

Best to deal in writing. If either side screws up because he does not understand what's written and signs an agreement, it will be a legal issue.

Now that the whole situation is of a clearer picture, you can view the other tread and see somebody still gloating over his gain. Get the point?

 

[cyrilng]

Originally posted by sandman
"maybe to him, dissatisfied with results, means got problem with the lens optically or mechanically"
If such a problem exists, it is a physical defect, which should be declared beforehand. My condition of not being "not satisfied" covers a broader scope. So am I to be on the losing end because somebody has failed to grasp the geist of a mutual agreement?

If there was no such understanding, I would not have traded in the first place. Regardless of price, I paid hard cash for it, where's my guarantee of getting it back? Try looking at it from a genuine buyer's point of view to get a desired lens.

Sorry but I still don't get your point really. As said "maybe to him dissatisfied with results, means got problem with the lens optically or mechanically" which is exactly what he replied to you when you emailed him right? "The prints came out and I found that the lens was not sharp enough for me. Emailed Xu Zhi Dao and he refused to return my money back, citing that a refund can only be due to mechanical or optical problems." Whereas your definition "covers a broader scope". Like I said your condition is very subjective. How do you define it? "Not sharp eonugh for me" is very subjective.
So was it a communication breakdown due to his poorer grasp of English?

For testing the lens, a roll of Fuji 200 was run through it at focal lengths of 20, 24, 28 and 35. Each focal length had shots through it at progressive apertures. Tripod-mounted with cable release. Results were viewed through a loupe by 3 different individuals. All within 2 days of trade. Fair enough testing?

Now that the whole situation is of a clearer picture, you can view the other tread and see somebody still gloating over his gain. Get the point?

You did not state what were the results? What were you & the others' findings of the results based on comparisons with? So is there an optical or mechanical fault with the lens that results in poor photo quality? If so, then I fully agree that you should be refunded as this is what the seller himself assured.

I don't mean to doubt you nor am I related to he seller in any way but I'm just trying to point out that even if you were to buy a lens from any store like CP & then find that the results were not up to your expectations, not as sharp as you want it to be & not to your satisfaction, they are not going to refund you based on that.

 

[mpenza]

Are the "poor" results due to Zhi Dao mishandling of the lens or just the inherent quality of the lens? It might not be fair to "put" the lens back to the seller just because the lens quality isn't as good as another lens costing many times as much.

 

[Allen]

Originally posted by sandman
The lens is now up for grabs. I do not want to be reminded of such a bane to society. Different people have different needs, if this lens is sufficient for your use, propose a transaction.

Powerxu aka Xu Zhi Dao is currently selling a Nikon EM+AI50/1.8+Tokina AT-X 28-85/3.5-4.5(MF) <showthread.php?threadid=36730> in Buy & Sell, please deal with him in writing. [/B]

I have dealt with him before and he's a gem of a person. Your not being satisfied here is "unreasonable" if you are looking for sharp lens, why don't you get Carl Zeiss or Nikon's ED lens?

No offence.

 

[cyrilng]

Originally posted by sandman


Now that the whole situation is of a clearer picture, you can view the other tread and see somebody still gloating over his gain. Get the point?

I don't see him "gloating" over any gain in any of his threads. In fact it's quite rude to post disparaging remarks in other's sales thread.
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36730
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35418
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35160
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35370
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35119
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34222

In fact, find that he's quite forthcoming & reasonable in his description of sale items & asking price.

Like mpenza & Allen pointed out, this is not a premier, brand new lens, so don't expect exceptional results. Basically, you get what you pay for.

 

[sandman]

To cyril's post, I was quoting Baiyun in the 1st statement. Yes, the agreement was not understood due to his poorer grasp of English. But a person is as good as his word, if you agreed to it, then its sealed.

The pictures were not sharp even at infinity. I dealt with an individual not a shop. The terms of trade are as stated at the point of trade. Please do not compare with any other trade.

Final Question:

So is it that a trade cannot be transacted based on a mutual agreement that if the lens involved is not sharp enough for the buyer, a moneyback guarantee will be performed?

Let this be the final question. If the answer to this question is Yes, then perhaps my perception of trade in this market needs to be finetuned.

 

[stk]

Originally posted by sandman
Final Question:

So is it that a trade cannot be transacted based on a mutual agreement that if the lens involved is not sharp enough for the buyer, a moneyback guarantee will be performed?

Let this be the final question. If the answer to this question is Yes, then perhaps my perception of trade in this market needs to be finetuned.

Personally as a seller, I would not agree to such terms becos it is too subjective and some people have unrealistic expectations. Someone might buy my $400 digicam and expects it to produce photos like the 10D..

I also see your case as one of miscommunication..

 

[cyrilng]

Originally posted by sandman
To cyril's post, I was quoting Baiyun in the 1st statement. Yes, the agreement was not understood due to his poorer grasp of English. But a person is as good as his word, if you agreed to it, then its sealed.

The pictures were not sharp even at infinity. I dealt with an individual not a shop. The terms of trade are as stated at the point of trade. Please do not compare with any other trade.

Final Question:

So is it that a trade cannot be transacted based on a mutual agreement that if the lens involved is not sharp enough for the buyer, a moneyback guarantee will be performed?

Let this be the final question. If the answer to this question is Yes, then perhaps my perception of trade in this market needs to be finetuned.

Yes, sorry, realised that.

I think the point is that 'not sharp ENOUGH' for the buyer is very subjective, no matter how good the seller's command of the language may be.

I suggest you do your research, read reviews, go to CP or AP & ask them to let you take a few test shots of the lens you intend to buy to get an idea of what results can be achieved out of a new lens but as you also pointed out, although this was not a purchase from a shop the same principles apply.

So then, maybe you could have taken some test shots with a DSLR or film SLR, tell the seller you'll analyze the results FIRST to see if they are up to your expectations, THEN get back to him to close the deal. Shouldn't take more than a day but if buyer & seller are keen, I'm sure both can wait. But once you have bought the lens, unless there is an obvious defect leading to results being not what they should be, most people won't refund you based on "The lens is not sharp enough for me". Sorry. I'm out of here now, enough said.

 

[Zerstorer]

I think the crux of the issue lies with whether PowerXu actually did agree to the terms stated by Sandman or not. If he did, then he is obliged to live by the agreement, regardless of how presumptuous it may sound, as the deal hinged on that agreement.

However, we will never know if its a case of miscommunication or PowerXu reneging on the agreement.

Sandman: Since there is no way to prove either case, you might as well give it a rest. You have already given other prospective buyers ample warning and nothing can be gained by pushing on as there is no way us bystanders can ascertain who is right.

 

[ahbeng]

Originally posted by sandman
For testing the lens, a roll of Fuji 200 was run through it at focal lengths of 20, 24, 28 and 35. Each focal length had shots through it at progressive apertures. Tripod-mounted with cable release. Results were viewed through a loupe by 3 different individuals. All within 2 days of trade. Fair enough testing?

i am a bit confuse here. what was the result of the testing? good or not good and were you satisfied? i believe its good and satisfactory, otherwise you would'nt have buy the lens? but then you are not satisfied with the results "After" you bought the lens? :dunno: :dunno: