Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

[eikin]

as per thread title.

wow, why so mad... i've done a peanut job before and it literally does not pay nor does it really get you the kind of contacts or network you may be looking for. if a few other people made comments, so can i correct? calm down buddy. anyways no worries this was obviously a misunderstanding.

what i meant was instead of only making a list have you considered flushing out companies that exploit CSers? perhaps name the companies that pay cheap so CSers know who to look out for. or even maybe have CSers give their experiences, good or bad working with various companies or organizations? When i said no action regarding what good this list will do yeah i guess that was a bit harsh and i apologise. but what i meant is that if people or organizations are exposed by our comments then if they come here for a second go around, either Csers can look up their history or hopefully the company, business, or organization will be too embarrassed to ask again

anyways you have a good day !!!

i'm more concerned about CS becoming the place to source for free/cheap photography services. anyway from posts in other forums and members' sentiments, it is the place to look for free/cheap services.

let me illustrate how easily the current system can be exploited.

Company A looks for low costing services.
An employee from Company A comes into CS, register a nick 'Mr1' and looks for cheap/free services.
Staff1's thread get publicised on CS, attracting lots of unsuspecting members.
Some CS members see the thread and decide to voice against the thread.
Staff1's aim has been fulfilled and stop posting in CS no matter how much flames have been fired.
When the need arise again, the employee comes into CS, register a new nick 'Mr2' and looks for cheap/free services.
The employee goes on to tell all his friends and colleagues about how convenient it is to make use of CS to look for freebies.

my concern is not how Company A conduct their business, my concern is how people who are like that employee time and again exploit this website to get free/cheap services.

we need specific posting guidelines with respect to looking for photography services in this website so that we can 'officially' get rid of the loophole.

together with that, we need those with the industry experience to share so that newcomers have access to knowledge about their rights, and the traps.

Why Should CS and participating members care?

simple, this forum is about photography; with majority of the members in Singapore, this forum is very much about photography in Singapore. we have people with the professional knowledge about industry practices, why should we allow exploitation of this website to continue? the only possible reason is that we are all too selfish to bother about things not right around us, if that is the case might as well not have the services section in here, at least we don't see the problems happening.

 

[deckard]

blame it on cheap DSLRs, now EVERYBODY can afford one. :sticktong

 

[eikin]

blame it on cheap DSLRs, now EVERYBODY can afford one. :sticktong

i think statements like this does not help in any way. it's like blaming soccer for the spread of soccer betting.

cheap DSLRs have made it more accessible for those outside of the photography industry to participate in photography, that's a wonderful thing.

 

[itsybitsyspidy]

there is no way you can totally get rid of such stuff. For every "professional/expensive/whatever" photographer you have, there will always be people who will do it for free. You probably won't and never will understand such mentality, as such, there are people on the other end who don't believe in paying(much) for photography either. This trend is uprising and it will only continue to escalate further.

Back to the topic, it is precisely CS is so popular that such things happen. So if there is a demand for free services and there is a supply of photographers who are willing to do it for free, why not? Others who recognise that good photography comes at a price will understand the efforts and hard work that a photographer puts in to produce photographs, these are the people who will pay the premium to have the moments captured.

Bottom line is, i believe it's two different market, and yes the consumers themselves can recognise quality when they see it.

 

[eikin]

there is no way you can totally get rid of such stuff. For every "professional/expensive/whatever" photographer you have, there will always be people who will do it for free. You probably won't and never will understand such mentality, as such, there are people on the other end who don't believe in paying(much) for photography either. This trend is uprising and it will only continue to escalate further.

Back to the topic, it is precisely CS is so popular that such things happen. So if there is a demand for free services and there is a supply of photographers who are willing to do it for free, why not? Others who recognise that good photography comes at a price will understand the efforts and hard work that a photographer puts in to produce photographs, these are the people who will pay the premium to have the moments captured.

Bottom line is, i believe it's two different market, and yes the consumers themselves can recognise quality when they see it.

i've never thought of getting rid of it, what i'm proposing here is a clear stance on preventing this site from becoming a freebie centre.

the workshop subforum has evolved into a controlled subforum where information is clear for consumers, why can't we have similar level of control in the service subforum?

this can actually be done easily.

if it is made compulsory that anyone who wants to come into the forum to look for photography service must provide clear information about

1. scope of job
2. terms of payment
3. copyright settlement

we can effectively deter a good number of those who want to exploit this site. with such high visit rate, an offer that's obviously trying to take advantage of unsuspecting newcomers can be quickly detected when the conditions are laid out. shady threads with single liners like 'looking for photographer to cover an event, limited budget' ought to be banned in my opinion.

 

[Wisp]

there is no way you can totally get rid of such stuff. For every "professional/expensive/whatever" photographer you have, there will always be people who will do it for free. You probably won't and never will understand such mentality, as such, there are people on the other end who don't believe in paying(much) for photography either. This trend is uprising and it will only continue to escalate further.

Back to the topic, it is precisely CS is so popular that such things happen. So if there is a demand for free services and there is a supply of photographers who are willing to do it for free, why not? Others who recognise that good photography comes at a price will understand the efforts and hard work that a photographer puts in to produce photographs, these are the people who will pay the premium to have the moments captured.

Bottom line is, i believe it's two different market, and yes the consumers themselves can recognise quality when they see it.

This is not about the willingness of both parties, or markets issues.

It is to recognize the invididual rights of even an amateur photographer who may be clueless about the industry standards or their worker rights.

 

[satay16]

FTs and Singaporeans.

Problem: Singaporeans are highly-skilled, but due to high wages, companies often hire FTs since they are much cheaper, yet still equipped with acceptable levels of quality. This is making Singaporeans extremely unhappy, and they feel unfair.

 

[eikin]

FTs and Singaporeans.

Problem: Singaporeans are highly-skilled, but due to high wages, companies often hire FTs since they are much cheaper, yet still equipped with acceptable levels of quality. This is making Singaporeans extremely unhappy, and they feel unfair.

i'm going to barbeque you big time for this. please throw your OT out of here.

 

[Wisp]

FTs and Singaporeans.

Problem: Singaporeans are highly-skilled, but due to high wages, companies often hire FTs since they are much cheaper, yet still equipped with acceptable levels of quality. This is making Singaporeans extremely unhappy, and they feel unfair.

Yep honestly, take it out on another thread if you want.

 

[satay16]

kind of disappointed, i thought someone would actually see the analogy i was trying to make.

 

[fotoudavid]

True enough, CS is not the place for such practices.

 

[eikin]

kind of disappointed, i thought someone would actually see the analogy i was trying to make.

it's a horrible analogy, if not terrible. this is the worst reasoning i've read so far :thumbsd: if you know what a cold joke is, this one's a freezer, and frozen satay taste really bad.

 

[fotoudavid]

FTs and Singaporeans.

Problem: Singaporeans are highly-skilled, but due to high wages, companies often hire FTs since they are much cheaper, yet still equipped with acceptable levels of quality. This is making Singaporeans extremely unhappy, and they feel unfair.

apple and orange is always different.

 

[satay16]

it's a horrible analogy, if not terrible. this is the worst reasoning i've read so far :thumbsd: if you know what a cold joke is, this one's a freezer, and frozen satay taste really bad.

it's not a joke. these amateur photographers are cheaper and gives acceptable quality. professionals give much better quality, but at a higher cost.

 

[eikin]

it's not a joke. these amateur photographers are cheaper and gives acceptable quality. professionals give much better quality, but at a higher cost.

can you please read properly what's the issue at hand? i did not start a discussion thread initially simply because i know such OT replies will flood the thread and kill it. if you may, please stop posting and read and understand. including the original thread, thank you.

 

[ortega]

i agree

if there was a form to fill up, like the B&S treads
that would be easy to impliment

it is time the industry looked after it's own

 

[satay16]

can you please read properly what's the issue at hand? i did not start a discussion thread initially simply because i know such OT replies will flood the thread and kill it. if you may, please stop posting and read and understand. including the original thread, thank you.

hmm..kk. i think i roughly get the idea. looks like i barked up the wrong tree.:embrass:

 

[ykia]

It is interesting that, in the buy and sell section, there is keen market information with regards to the offer/buy price and the "reputation" of the buyer/seller.

On one hand, you have a tangible item -- camera body, lens, flash, etc. These items have a "market price", usually the upper limit is set by what is sold brand new at shops. The seller or buyer would appear "uninformed" if he/she were to advertise a price too high or too low.

On the other hand, you don't see people offering "free" products, just so that they can...
- "network" with potential customers
- build up their profolio of free products given away
- push their sales skills to the next level by slowly increasing prices from starting at "zero"
etc, etc, etc.

Unfortunately, when it comes to photographic services, entrants and opportunists, cannot/will not see the relationship of their service to a "tangible" product. I offer 2 reasons for this "blind area"...
1. The photog does not know what value to charge.
2. The photog believes the value gained in experience outweighs the need to charge appropriately.

For #1, CS can definitely play a part in "publishing" the market rates of various types of photog charges for different events (e.g. hourly rates for weddings, official ceremonies, product shoots, etc). This could be done by a confidential survey of known reputable full-time, part-time photogs in CS, aggregating the amounts and showing the min, max, average and mean charges.

For #2, this is a personal believe or attitude of the individual, and no amount of campaigning, arguing or sanctioning will ever change that individual's mind. I doubt that even shaming a person in public for doing so will have any significant impact.

With that said, going back to the analogy of B&S in CS, who are we to judge if a seller does decide to sell away his gear for next to nothing or give it away? Do I dare say that he/she is spoiling the market for brand DDDD's camera because this person is being generous?

At the requestor's end, the temptation is always to get the highest service at the lowest value (i.e. free), and there are a million reasons/justifications to do so. For whatever the reasons, ultimately they are consuming a photog's time.

The opportunity cost of a photog's time, regardless of whether full-time or part-time, has to account for a dollar value, be it a student, an NS man, a freelancer or even a hobbyist.

Just because it may be a charity event, non-profit event or "earn what you learn" event, it does not mean that a dollar value cannot be made to the photog. If it is for charity, pay the photog and let him/her decide to return the dollar value (or never cash in the cheque).

One way I see CS helping out in this area (from the requestor of free/low value photogs) is to have a sub-forum with an appropriate title (e.g. Non-paying Services Requested) and have the mods/admin move these threads to that sub-forum, if they are found out of place else where.

In the end, there will always be type #2 photogs out there and requestors that seek them out. Perhaps by giving them their own space, while publishing the market rates of services, there will be a more balanced approach to this issue.

 

[Hawaiisg]

satay and ykia make some good points

one has to ask what is the difference from a business or person trying to find the cheapest labour possible? it is a real situation as satay pointed out...and why are people getting upset? i think almost all of us try to get the best bargain possible...correct? i think maybe to have good dialogue or debate all parties must be willing to understand all sides and realize a situation for what it is and not what they idealistically want it to be. i think what a few of us are trying to say is that alongside with signing this thread, we have to understand why it is and not be blind to it.

again, not knocking anyone or any opinion, just broadening views. and as stated earlier, i dun want people being exploited too. so maybe the thing we have to do is point out who are the ones that exploit so CSers can make better decisions about taking peanut jobs. at the end of the day, we cannot stop anyone from coming here asking for a job to be done with cheap or no pay. but what we can do, is inform other CSers, make them more knowledgeable to know what might happen long and short term if they take peanut jobs.

keep smiling people

 

[Zplus]

Professionals (Dr, Lawyers, etc) are able to charge premium prices because of the relative scarcity of these people providing the service. When supply is low price is high. How do they keep the supply low? Barriers to entry.

Photography does not have any man-made barriers to entry. Previously, the film development cost is high and it takes longer to master the techniques. These 2 factors form a kind of natural barriers to entry. It would have taken a real passion and patience to master photography. With the coming of the digital age, film development cost is zero, learning curve is steeper - instant feedback. Hence, there is a sudden spike in the number of people willing to pick up this hobby. Instant gratification.

When barriers of entry are removed, the pool of supply increases. Plus the fact that this is Spore... a lot of new photographers would want to try to earn some money out of this hobby. Like all profitable business in Spore, everyone wants to jump in (look at the bubble tea sudden boom and bust). Of course, the demand side is willing to sacrifice some quality for pictures that are "good enough" rather then "damn good" beacause of the low prices.

Just some thots of why you have the situation today...;p