A New Forum for paid service and freebies

[red eye]

there should be another topic for paid jobs and for freebies....

actually i think there should be another one... for cheapos!

come on lah.. give chance for people to earn money! and dont be a cheapo!

you ask the photographer to be there for 10hours then pay $100 only... then some more you want the photographer to bring very good equipment???

wth! i know there are people who just wants to build up portofolio... i think you should go to that freebies topic and leave the services wanted topic.... you spoil market you know!

clients dont be cheapo! budding photographers dun spoil market... i know you want to build portfolio, but dont waste the opportunity to earn money also!

sorry had to rant here

 

[catchlights]

Just to highlight that we strongly discourage anyone come here to look for services for free/pittance, such requests will not be approved or deleted.

I don't think a Freebies section will able to help anybody. Anybody need something, either work for it or pay of it, this is how our society works. Photography service is an not necessity to most people, putting it at the last priority and didn't set a decent budget, that is their choice and we respect that, But these people can't come here to ask photographer to help them solve their problem.

For members thinking of offering free services, I have share my views on "volunteering" in exchange of experience, portfolio building and exposure at Media pass to a sport event, will u volunteer? It is not directing to sport photography or any organization but in general view of offering free services.

Some wedding photographers starting by working as apprentice, promote to second shooter than junior photographer, they never offer themself as free photographer. and usually they are rather successful once their shoot on their own.

However, many others photographers taking the route of offering free and cheap to gain portfolio and clientele, such failing rate is very high, most of them won't able to make it, even they do, they still have hard time to remove the label of cheap photographer on them. This label making the photographer going nowhere, the only way out is to re-brand themself by cutting off all the connection with existing clientele and re start with a new source of clientele. How many photographers willing to do that? can they afford to do that in the first place?

For those really want to consider photography as a career, it is very important to start with the right footing at the beginning.

Lastly, Service Wanted section is not for discussion, thread moved to The Photo Biz.

it has come to our attention that there are a number of people asking photographers/models to work for free/pittance because they are on a 'tight' budget.

please take note that CS strongly discourage asking photographers/models to work for free/pittance, unless it is for a charity or other noteworthy causes (subjected to prior approval by the CS Admins). such posts will be summarily deleted.

taken from Posting guidelines for Services Wanted (read before posting)

 

[inflammation]

yup i agree too.. i think the service section should be segregated into TFCDs/cheap section and the normal services. or smth like that.
I understand that some cant afford so they'll be looking for young photogs. and as yound photog they cant charge beyond their limits.

on the other hand those who those with good experience should pock out some extra cash. With good experience, we photogs would be able o present decent work for that amt.

ofcourse, there would be pros and shortcommings of bring out the new idea to act.
Moderators could consider our suggestion or devise a solution for our concerns.

thank you. Do accept my apologies if it was wrong to post over here.

 

[Agetan]

It's more willing user willing photographer situation. There is no cure for this...

Photography services will just get more and more competitive and the only way to survive is to stay on top of your game at all time.

As I mentioned before, if price is your selling point, then you should worry about it as someone else will be cheaper and better than you.

There should not be a section for free/cheap service but if CS moderator wanted to do it, you may consider giving some sort of idea for those who offer their service as portfolio building an avenue to have access to model release to really differentiate between portfolio building and simply service exploitation.

Regards,

Hart

Regards,

Hart

 

[red eye]

all i'm saying is... if your new and want to build portfolio, just say you are a newbie BUT STILL CHARGE! DONT SPOIL MARKET AND DONT SPOIL THE BLOODY CHEAPO CLIENTS!

they should know that first off, photography is a skill and its not cheap! camera alone will cost over $1k! some more, some people will ask for expensive equipment then pay $100 for freaking 10hours!

if you think photography is so easy and so cheap, go buy a compact camera and shoot yourself! better yet use your freaking iphone or handphone or whatever you have!

come on, theres skill involved in photography! and its not just a point and shoot! people invested time and money for their equipment!

i still say there should be a cheapo section, for those clients on real budget or asking for freebie, and all the newbies who spoil market should stay there as well

FOR CLIENTS AND OTHER PHOTOGRAPHERS (NEW OR OLD) DONT SPOIL MARKET!

clients, i'm sure you want to hire a photographer is because you believe that he has the skill and the equipment to use for your project, if not why hire??? shoot yourself! so pay them appropriately for their work!

photographers (new or old) its also your livelyhood, dont be stupid!

 

[kentwong81]

Agreed with what Agetan said, if price is your selling point, then definitely someone will be cheaper than you and yet offer more things than you, ie if you offer free service with return of xxx photos, then someone will be offering the same things yet giving free montage with songs, free 4R photos cum album, photobook etc. In the end, only yourself will suffer by doing so much things for no/insufficient monetary compensation. Also do remember the money you have invested in your camera bodies and lenses, the money you pay for expensive editing software like photoshop, the precious weekends(especially you wake up at 4am and stand/shoot until 11pm), the time you spend on editing after that, etc.

Why not join an experienced professional photographer as a 2nd shooter or assistant first? It's much easier and faster to learn from them, see how they shoot, how they setup the lightings and how they control the situation than offering free service to build up portfolio and doing all the trials & errors yourself(sometimes even risking to spoilt the big day of the couples). There is no rush to build your portfolios, but how many things/techniques you have learned from the pros are more important. When you have the right skills and techniques, the customers will come to you naturally.

 

[red eye]

i think clients should state on their ads how much is their budget, so we know if they are cheapos

 

[Fiveten]

i think clients should state on their ads how much is their budget, so we know if they are cheapos

+1 hahaha

 

[benny2174]

Especially you are serving as volunteer at community and they expect you to give free services and keep saying no budget. and when there is budget, they engage others to take the photos...so pissed off. Now I dun take FOC. I tell them no budget I get my DSC and take for them no problem. They demanded you give them the photos the very next day. They even go extend tell you that a small forum of about 2hrs for about less than 70 ppl total 200+ photos not enough. Craps

 

[ortega]

if there was a charge to post an ad then the cheapos will all go away :devil:

or on the other end
the ad will only display the date/time and details of shoot including price offered
to accept the job and contact the advertiser you will need to pay
then all the free photographers will also go away

 

[catchlights]

if there was a charge to post an ad then the cheapos will all go away :devil:

or on the other end
the ad will only display the date/time and details of shoot including price offered
to accept the job and contact the advertiser you will need to pay
then all the free photographers will also go away

If both parties don't want to pay, can always go craigslist.

 

[Entity]

I think what Hart and Uncle Ben have been trying to tell everyone for sooo long is that you should charge what you should be charging. If you think you have invested enough time and effort and of course money building your photography career, your clients should be paying what you are worth.

If you think your client base is threatened by those who are offering free or low-priced services even though your product is better than theirs, there may be a few things you need to re-look. Maybe your pricing needs a review? Perhaps your product may be better technically/ creatively but the clients you target are not willing to pay? It is possible you may need more marketing/ experience/ knowledge...the list is long.

One thing is certain - vying for customers who see no difference hiring you and a $100 per day up-and-coming newbie is going to be a trying experience.

 

[benny2174]

You can choose not to take up any assignments that ppl dun want to pay...my community group ask me to go overseas retreat with them not becos they like my company but my ability to shoot and can be ordered around like a paid photographer. I rejected going becos why should I be paying for my own trip while I am still been treated as if I am been paid to take photos for this group? they will be ordering you around taking pics tillu hv little time for yrself. I am not stupid!

 

[schizelle]

I can understand the feeling of being pushed around for everything

 

[Agetan]

To be entirely honest...

Client who is looking for service (in photography), they do have a set of budget in mind. If they have lower budget than the what average market is charging... it doesn't qualify them as cheapo clients... it could be a simple case of un-informed clients.... it is up to the photographer to serve the clients by giving them the breakdown and also tell the client why they should afford their service. Yes, you don't always get the job... but at least you care enough to tell them your difference.

For example, many photographers out there also offer "newborn photography" and I am very sure many of them charge a lot lower than I do... but would people still book my service? Clients do pay for non-tangible stuff like service, reputation and experience, and it is up to me to make them realise why I worth what I charge. It is not always PRICE... it is often Value that people are looking for. If clients don't see the value, they simply won't book regardless of how much it is.

It is not a client's fault if they are not being informed about why you should be the the service provider that they should use. It is the service provider's fault by not giving them enuf information for them to make their decision.

For those who is building portfolio, you can cut them some slack for not charging. Everyone start somewhere and I start doing my first few shoots for a coffee... not everything is measurable with money... but certainly, if you feel that you are being exploited, it is still your choice to stay or to leave.

What is there a market to spoil? I don't quite understand... by charging lower simply spoils the market? I don't think so and I would suggest TS shouldn't feel that way. There are enough jobs for everyone who care to serve their clients... those lose out and not getting any business generally those who don't even read their client's email or phone call properly to start with nor showing their clients what they should know about you.

Everyone has very different bottom line and many mis-calculate their bottom line in their costing... they simply losing money by even charging. I read on someone's website stated clearly that everyone who charges more then her simply too greedy and asking for too much.... when one got their camera free of charge, mom and dad still pay for everything they use at home and what they wear and what they need for the future... sure... there is no COST to cover... whatever, the photographer charge simply their profit, but not many is that lucky... so obviously she think we charge over the top.

For some, making $100 over a weekend seems to be good money... some would think $25 is fine... some even think it is fun to do it free of charge as long as the clients pay for the food and transport and some even think it is cool to just be there and take some shots even if they have to pay for their transport and food. So there is nothing wrong here... it is a perception about value.


I hope what I post make some sense.

Regards,

Hart

 

[LukaviZ]

Ahh.. darn. pressed the wrong button and i lost my post...

Anyway. to repeat what i just said, because i just had to say it...

I think I know who TS is referring to... I counter quoted, and to my expectation, I did not receive a reply. Not surprising, because i wasnt expecting one.

I'll compare this to Chicken rice.

If you are expecting to pay $1 for chicken rice at a food court, and want minimum requirement to have at least '120g of chicken', then you're not going to get what you want. You could get '90g of chicken' for a $1.80 plate of chicken rice. This is the typical 'budget chicken rice' that many coffee shops here and there may offer (not in food courts still). If you have requirements of 'kampong chicken' with 'quality rice', you'd expect to pay $4-6, otherwise, again, you're not going to get what you want. Otherwise you could settle for the average '$3 chicken rice' that can be had at just about every coffee shop and some food courts, that give average rice, average quality chicken, and decent environment.

You pay what you get for, is what I always believe, though, there ARE exceptions. BUT still not to the extent of $1 chicken rice with lots of meat and cosy food court setting (do tell me where you can find this, I really love my chicken rice =D )

Cheers, just sharing an opinion and my view of this situation.

 

[surrephoto]

I don't think the pricing or the budget of the client or the price of the photographer actually determines the output quality in 2011.

Probably more like...

1. How good the client is at finding the best deal (sometimes it's the bosses forcing their project/event managers to find one at $X budget hook or crook)
2. How low of a pricing a pg (good or bad) is willing to stoop to, to get that job.

 

[brapodam]

I don't think the pricing or the budget of the client or the price of the photographer actually determines the output quality in 2011.

Probably more like...

1. How good the client is at finding the best deal (sometimes it's the bosses forcing their project/event managers to find one at $X budget hook or crook)
2. How low of a pricing a pg (good or bad) is willing to stoop to, to get that job.

Yes. It is very possible now because a lot of amateur photographers looking to earn some money from their hobby don't quite know the value of the services they provide, and as such underprice by a lot.

 

[Luval]

There will be only a respond from me , "NO" Not easy for some of us to come out all the way here. Did we go thru all that for someone to come out for a new forum for cheapo.. Hell no..
I be honest. You go have all the hard work put in and others are there to offer cheap services to get portfolio ? !!

 

[surrephoto]

There will be only a respond from me , "NO" Not easy for some of us to come out all the way here. Did we go thru all that for someone to come out for a new forum for cheapo.. Hell no..
I be honest. You go have all the hard work put in and others are there to offer cheap services to get portfolio ? !!

There will be a market for cheapos and a market for people who appreciate quality service & professional photography. Just that obvious the former seems to be a sizable proportion of singaporean consumers.

I dare say that you that since you're "all the way here", you certainly will be able to cope with the turbulent & ever-changing market.

For the new guys, offering cheap services to get the portfolio may be the only means to jumpstart. This type of market penetration is always on-going, theres really nothing to scream about.

There are guys who have charged $600 for 10 hr AD for 10 years, and other guys who start at Mid-$1k region and dropped all the way down to sub-$800. If you're good enough you can choose to go up, and if you feel you're not good enough or don't wish to limit your jobs intake, you can always drop.

No hard rules imho. I only charge $600 for AD because i want jobs and quantity to keep myself on a regular shoot basis. Everyone has their own reason and doesn't mean low = newb.