6 stop v 6.6 stop ND filer for sunset


iosman123

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Hello,

I'm thinking of getting the Hoya Prond64 (6 stops) or Prond100 (6.6 stops) ND filters for trying out sunset photography. Are there alot of difference between 6 stop and 6.6 stop for sunset stuff?

Thanks
iosman






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Hello,

I'm thinking of getting the Hoya Prond64 (6 stops) or Prond100 (6.6 stops) ND filters for trying out sunset photography. Are there alot of difference between 6 stop and 6.6 stop for sunset stuff?

Thanks
iosman

Technically not much difference in fstop but I 'm more inclined to get nd100 after reading this below. It has less colour shift but a variation of 50 k -150k kelvin in colour temperature is not noticable by naked eye as claimed by author although it has some blue shift but most colour casts can be corrected in post processing.

 

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Hello,

I'm thinking of getting the Hoya Prond64 (6 stops) or Prond100 (6.6 stops) ND filters for trying out sunset photography. Are there alot of difference between 6 stop and 6.6 stop for sunset stuff?

Thanks
iosman

I got the proND 100. Bought it so that I just multiply 100 to the shutter speed.
The maths is easier in my opinion.
:p
 

Hi guys! Am searching through threads for help Variable ND filter. I just bought one, says on the packaging 16-2000. Wanna test it in daylight so I did a super quick test at settings: ISO100, f16, VND at max. I still see image on the viewfinder! And of course, I can't even do a decent bulb exposure without my recorded image being overexposed. :( Can anyone advise me on what I am doing wrong here?
 

Hi guys! Am searching through threads for help Variable ND filter. I just bought one, says on the packaging 16-2000. Wanna test it in daylight so I did a super quick test at settings: ISO100, f16, VND at max. I still see image on the viewfinder! And of course, I can't even do a decent bulb exposure without my recorded image being overexposed. :( Can anyone advise me on what I am doing wrong here?

I'm assuming there are markings of fstops it will cut light on the filter? If not nevermind can estimate, you need to know the number of fstops of the ND number it will cut.For example ND2000 is 11 fstops ( see link below for examples and the fstop table). If in daytime take exposure reading in your case ISO 100 f16 (aperture priority or manual) Whatever the indicated shutter speed ( without ND filter attached) you divide by the light output ND2000 which is your maximum setting of 11 fstop will cut which is 2000 times but for exactness it's 2048 times. See the example for iso200 and you will understand and I suspect it will not be at bulb setting..(less than 1 sec.) which you said is overexposed. As in the the table of the link below if the normal exposure is 1 second then for an 11fstop or nd2000 it is 30 minutes.

Edit: sorry instead of divide..it should be multiply the shutter speed if it makes sense..( increasing exposure time).

 

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I'm assuming there are markings of fstops it will cut light on the filter? If not nevermind can estimate, you need to know the number of fstops of the ND number it will cut.For example ND2000 is 11 fstops ( see link below for examples and the fstop table). If in daytime take exposure reading in your case ISO 100 f16 (aperture priority or manual) Whatever the indicated shutter speed ( without ND filter attached) you divide by the light output ND2000 which is your maximum setting of 11 fstop will cut which is 2000 times but for exactness it's 2048 times. See the example for iso200 and you will understand and I suspect it will not be at bulb setting..(less than 1 sec.) which you said is overexposed. As in the the table of the link below if the normal exposure is 1 second then for an 11fstop or nd2000 it is 30 minutes.

Edit: sorry instead of divide..it should be multiply the shutter speed if it makes sense..( increasing exposure time).


Thanks for helping, and for the link! :) I was trying to do a quick dirty text for "smooth water effect" so I minimize every setting to allow for an estimated exposure of 30s on the highest ND stop. The result of it being blown out, confuses me a bit.

I'd watched quite a few helpful youtube vids and the photographers exposed their shots longer than 30s. So they left me wondering if there is still a limit to "when" I could use the filter that I'd bought? Meaning it's not "performing" in bright daylight but better suited to overcast/low llow light situations? (BTW, the sun wasn't even bearing down, but it was bright enough). I'd watched a video of one photographer trying to make cars "disappear" so he exposed his shot for 16min (!!) Maybe he was using industrial strength filter, haha! Am trying to figure out if I should get a proper 10-stop filter for better experiment? Or there are really limitations for my VND filter :(
 

Thanks for helping, and for the link! :) I was trying to do a quick dirty text for "smooth water effect" so I minimize every setting to allow for an estimated exposure of 30s on the highest ND stop. The result of it being blown out, confuses me a bit.

I'd watched quite a few helpful youtube vids and the photographers exposed their shots longer than 30s. So they left me wondering if there is still a limit to "when" I could use the filter that I'd bought? Meaning it's not "performing" in bright daylight but better suited to overcast/low llow light situations? (BTW, the sun wasn't even bearing down, but it was bright enough). I'd watched a video of one photographer trying to make cars "disappear" so he exposed his shot for 16min (!!) Maybe he was using industrial strength filter, haha! Am trying to figure out if I should get a proper 10-stop filter for better experiment? Or there are really limitations for my VND filter :(

From the exposure times you quoted it could be they are using stacked filters as from the link there are 16 stop nd but the more you stack the light gets refracted causing aberations or distortions.

Vnd is fine when you are learning to use nd to get effects because it's cheap but opinions say quality is not the best compared to fixed value nd. More important is knowing how much light each grading of nd filter it cuts and calculating the right time or aperture vs iso.
 

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From the exposure times you quoted it could be they are using stacked filters as from the link there are 16 stop nd but the more you stack the light gets refracted causing aberations or distortions.

Vnd is fine when you are learning to use nd to get effects because it's cheap but opinions say quality is not the best compared to fixed value nd. More important is knowing how much light each grading of nd filter it cuts and calculating the right time or aperture vs iso.

Indeed! Thanks very much for your help! I appreciate it : )
 

Hi guys! Am searching through threads for help Variable ND filter. I just bought one, says on the packaging 16-2000. Wanna test it in daylight so I did a super quick test at settings: ISO100, f16, VND at max. I still see image on the viewfinder! And of course, I can't even do a decent bulb exposure without my recorded image being overexposed. :( Can anyone advise me on what I am doing wrong here?

Hmm I'm just wondering if the VND works as stated... 11 stop ND is very dark, a bit difficult to see through the viewfinder even in daylight, unless you are using the electronic viewfinder which will adjust the exposure automatically.

A quick test is to use aperture priority mode, set to max aperture number and take a test shot without the filter. In bright daylight maybe the exposure is like ISO100, f16, 1/125s. Put on the filter, turn to max and take another shot. If it works as stated, the camera probably chooses a shutter speed of around 15 seconds, and the exposure will roughly be around there. If the shutter speed chosen is much shorter and the exposure is still around there, then you know it is overstating it's effect. From the shutter speed you can work out roughly the actual amount of light the filter reduces.


BTW do start a new thread if you have a question different from the thread starter's :)
 

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Thanks for helping, and for the link! :) I was trying to do a quick dirty text for "smooth water effect" so I minimize every setting to allow for an estimated exposure of 30s on the highest ND stop. The result of it being blown out, confuses me a bit.

I'd watched quite a few helpful youtube vids and the photographers exposed their shots longer than 30s. So they left me wondering if there is still a limit to "when" I could use the filter that I'd bought? Meaning it's not "performing" in bright daylight but better suited to overcast/low llow light situations? (BTW, the sun wasn't even bearing down, but it was bright enough). I'd watched a video of one photographer trying to make cars "disappear" so he exposed his shot for 16min (!!) Maybe he was using industrial strength filter, haha! Am trying to figure out if I should get a proper 10-stop filter for better experiment? Or there are really limitations for my VND filter :(

IMHO from what you described, it cannot be. with ND2000, you should be able to easily extend your shutter speed. Many cheaper VNDs advertise numbers that are inaccurate. Seriously so far I have yet to see any VND filter offering more than 10 stops (ND1000). Same for even the really good quality ones that cost $300-$400, 9.5 to 10 stops is the max I see.
 

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There is such product but at maximum 11 stops not really usable because you will see an X in photo.Test "indicate" 9.6 stops so it's marketing hype. Usable range is 4 stops at the starting at minimum. The usual disadvantages are colour shifts, vignetting and sharpness but this product is sharper than competing vnd. So if want the real thing pay $$$.
 

Thanks for helping, and for the link! :) I was trying to do a quick dirty text for "smooth water effect" so I minimize every setting to allow for an estimated exposure of 30s on the highest ND stop. The result of it being blown out, confuses me a bit.

I'd watched quite a few helpful youtube vids and the photographers exposed their shots longer than 30s. So they left me wondering if there is still a limit to "when" I could use the filter that I'd bought? Meaning it's not "performing" in bright daylight but better suited to overcast/low llow light situations? (BTW, the sun wasn't even bearing down, but it was bright enough). I'd watched a video of one photographer trying to make cars "disappear" so he exposed his shot for 16min (!!) Maybe he was using industrial strength filter, haha! Am trying to figure out if I should get a proper 10-stop filter for better experiment? Or there are really limitations for my VND filter :(

Honestly, before you do anything like long exposure you must learn the theory first. It's not a random hit and miss, every single setting is calculated precisely. This is one of the first lessons I often teach others (in the past), and the very first lesson in long exposure.

1) Before you start anything, you *have* to meter the scene. Take a normal photo without any filter, does it look ok? If nothing is blown, what is the setting? For this example, let's say the camera gave you 1/30, f8, ISO 100.

2) Put in your filter. How many stops is it? 10 stops?

3) Then multiply the shutter speed by 2. Do this 10 times because you are using a 10 stop filter. Hence, 1/30s will become 30s. Therefore,
1/30s, f8, ISO 100 == 30s, f8, ISO 100 w/ 10 stops ND. Both settings will give you EXACTLY the same exposure.

That's the basic of how to use an ND filter; you can't use it without knowing how to count stops by heart. This example here is just changing the shutter speed by dividing or multiplying by 2 and it can get more complicated with f-stops and ISO.

For f-stop:
f/2 > f/2.8 > f4 > f5.6 > f8 > f11 > f16 > f22 > f32

For ISO:
ISO 50 > ISO 100 > ISO 200 > ISO 400 > ISO 800 > ISO 1600 > ISO 3200 > ISO 6400 > ISO 12800

For Shutter Speed:
1/1000 > 1/500 > 1/250 > 1/125 > 1/60 > 1/30 > 1/15 > 1/8 > 1/4 > 1/2 > 1s > 2s > 4s > 8s > 15s > 30s > 1min > 2mins > 4mins > 8mins > 16mins > 32mins

Every single jump in the above results in an increase or decrease of light by 1 stop. You have to memorize all these by heart (at least the f-stop). I know as a beginner it's extremely overwhelming; you fumble the numbers, you miscalculated and watch sadly as the sun sets quickly without waiting for you. Then as you finally calculated the numbers, the metering for the scene had already changed due to the rapidly setting sun. Every experience landscaper had been there (those were the days :/). But as you get more experience, you will be simply be able to pull the numbers out of your head and mix everything around. Say,

1) You metered 1/250, f8, ISO 400 for the scene.
2) You should know the setting above will be EXACTLY the same exposure as 30s, f11, ISO 100 w/ a 10 stops filter (or at least be able to calculate within 30s). Or 4mins, f22, ISO 50 w/ 10 stops filter. They are all the same.
Unrelated) Then as the sun sets, you can decrease your stop to compensate for the lack of light. So maybe you will end up with 30s, f8, ISO 100. Or 30s, f11, ISO 200. Or 60s, f11, ISO 100. They are all the same thing and rebalancing will come naturally to you in due time. As for which setting to choose, it will depend on the scene and/or skills of your post-processing.

It gets more interesting with half stops, but you can always round them up to a full stop for easier calculation. Of course, you can use an app to calculate for you but as you get more experience in landscapes, you will find yourself in more precarious positions. The last thing you want is to bring out your phone to swipe the numbers while you can standing in the middle against the downstream shooting waterfalls, or by the edge of the cliff shooting the canyon :)

Lastly, I want to say that alot of people will try to bullshit you (pardon my language) when it comes to long exposure and bulb mode. The first telltale sign will be telling you they use a shutter speed resulting in an *odd* number (if number is greater than 1). If you notice the the counting, everything is either divided or multiplied by 2. So as long as your shutter speed is slower than 1s, you will never end with an odd number. Hence "I have to open my shutter for 47s" shows the person have no idea what he's talking about. Other than that, if the shutter speed is not close to a full stop or a half or third stop, he/she also have no idea as well. So if it looks as random as "52s", it's as random as it looks.
 

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There is such product but at maximum 11 stops not really usable because you will see an X in photo.Test "indicate" 9.6 stops so it's marketing hype. Usable range is 4 stops at the starting at minimum. The usual disadvantages are colour shifts, vignetting and sharpness but this product is sharper than competing vnd. So if want the real thing pay $$$.

Just to add on, cross-banding (the X shadow from VND) will happen faster the wider your focal length is. This is due to how a VND is made (ie using 2 polarizers). Polarizers will give differing effect from different angles. So with a wide angle lens, you get uneven polarization and with 2 CPLs in a VND you get a X band.
 

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Hmm I'm just wondering if the VND works as stated... 11 stop ND is very dark, a bit difficult to see through the viewfinder even in daylight, unless you are using the electronic viewfinder which will adjust the exposure automatically.

A quick test is to use aperture priority mode, set to max aperture number and take a test shot without the filter. In bright daylight maybe the exposure is like ISO100, f16, 1/125s. Put on the filter, turn to max and take another shot. If it works as stated, the camera probably chooses a shutter speed of around 15 seconds, and the exposure will roughly be around there. If the shutter speed chosen is much shorter and the exposure is still around there, then you know it is overstating it's effect. From the shutter speed you can work out roughly the actual amount of light the filter reduces.


BTW do start a new thread if you have a question different from the thread starter's :)

O yes, the EVF, realised that while I was experimenting with it yesterday! Of course, am using a (built-in) evf that’s why I was able to “preview”. Didn’t make the connection before hahahaha, mystery solved!

And yesssss! The filter was definitely overstated. I “calculated” the exposure to be 25 sec (by using an app) but the sky was blown out. So I reduced the exposure time from there as I realised that the “grade” is not accurate. Another note, am using an app by Lee filter (recommended by SLR Revolution), so as the filters are not of the same grade, results are grossly off LOL).

Plus, nearer to the 11th stop, the cross vignette crept in as “promised”. With the weird colour cast. Trippy.

I ended up using the T mode on my Fuji XT20. So, with 9–10.5 stop on the VND filter, I vary the the exposure time to attempt to smooth out water texture (of the reservoir). There was rapid water movement so at least I don’t have to use 15sec to see results!

It was really fun and educational, and I’d learned a great deal from all those videos, and this forum. Experimenting with the VND further solidify the concept of long exposures with VND. Am nowhere near calculating on the fly (!!) but all these have helped me recognise the many different variables that influence the results—positively or negatively.


• make of filter. VND not of reputable brand is quite sketchy and messes up calculations and learnings gained.
• relying on apps is not accurate as the grade of the filter (single grade or VND) is not factored.
• limitation of strength of filter depends on weather condition
and so on

So … nothing is absolute! I just have to practice long enough to be more adapt in calculating and re-adjusting the stops based on the current situation!

Also, apologies on not starting a new thread! Paiseh max!

And am very thankful for all the help rendered : ) Such a great community! <3
 

IMHO from what you described, it cannot be. with ND2000, you should be able to easily extend your shutter speed. Many cheaper VNDs advertise numbers that are inaccurate. Seriously so far I have yet to see any VND filter offering more than 10 stops (ND1000). Same for even the really good quality ones that cost $300-$400, 9.5 to 10 stops is the max I see.

Yes LOL, I got mine from SLR revolution, at $88 (!) and learned it the hard way. But it's all good! I have to start somewhere and a VND allows me to experiment as I would have no idea which grade to buy if it's a single grade ND filter. I may have to invest in a good 10 stop ND filter for bright daylight conditions, as I get the "promised" trippy efx near the 11th stop on my VND haha. I gave thoongeng my learnings in my reply to him :D

Thanks for your advice! Very much appreciated! :)
 

Honestly, before you do anything like long exposure you must learn the theory first. It's not a random hit and miss, every single setting is calculated precisely. This is one of the first lessons I often teach others (in the past), and the very first lesson in long exposure.

1) Before you start anything, you *have* to meter the scene. Take a normal photo without any filter, does it look ok? If nothing is blown, what is the setting? For this example, let's say the camera gave you 1/30, f8, ISO 100.

2) Put in your filter. How many stops is it? 10 stops?

3) Then multiply the shutter speed by 2. Do this 10 times because you are using a 10 stop filter. Hence, 1/30s will become 30s. Therefore,
1/30s, f8, ISO 100 == 30s, f8, ISO 100 w/ 10 stops ND. Both settings will give you EXACTLY the same exposure.

That's the basic of how to use an ND filter; you can't use it without knowing how to count stops by heart. This example here is just changing the shutter speed by dividing or multiplying by 2 and it can get more complicated with f-stops and ISO.

For f-stop:
f/2 > f/2.8 > f4 > f5.6 > f8 > f11 > f16 > f22 > f32

For ISO:
ISO 50 > ISO 100 > ISO 200 > ISO 400 > ISO 800 > ISO 1600 > ISO 3200 > ISO 6400 > ISO 12800

For Shutter Speed:
1/1000 > 1/500 > 1/250 > 1/125 > 1/60 > 1/30 > 1/15 > 1/8 > 1/4 > 1/2 > 1s > 2s > 4s > 8s > 15s > 30s > 1min > 2mins > 4mins > 8mins > 16mins > 32mins

Every single jump in the above results in an increase or decrease of light by 1 stop. You have to memorize all these by heart (at least the f-stop). I know as a beginner it's extremely overwhelming; you fumble the numbers, you miscalculated and watch sadly as the sun sets quickly without waiting for you. Then as you finally calculated the numbers, the metering for the scene had already changed due to the rapidly setting sun. Every experience landscaper had been there (those were the days :/). But as you get more experience, you will be simply be able to pull the numbers out of your head and mix everything around. Say,

1) You metered 1/250, f8, ISO 400 for the scene.
2) You should know the setting above will be EXACTLY the same exposure as 30s, f11, ISO 100 w/ a 10 stops filter (or at least be able to calculate within 30s). Or 4mins, f22, ISO 50 w/ 10 stops filter. They are all the same.
Unrelated) Then as the sun sets, you can decrease your stop to compensate for the lack of light. So maybe you will end up with 30s, f8, ISO 100. Or 30s, f11, ISO 200. Or 60s, f11, ISO 100. They are all the same thing and rebalancing will come naturally to you in due time. As for which setting to choose, it will depend on the scene and/or skills of your post-processing.

It gets more interesting with half stops, but you can always round them up to a full stop for easier calculation. Of course, you can use an app to calculate for you but as you get more experience in landscapes, you will find yourself in more precarious positions. The last thing you want is to bring out your phone to swipe the numbers while you can standing in the middle against the downstream shooting waterfalls, or by the edge of the cliff shooting the canyon :)

Lastly, I want to say that alot of people will try to bullshit you (pardon my language) when it comes to long exposure and bulb mode. The first telltale sign will be telling you they use a shutter speed resulting in an *odd* number (if number is greater than 1). If you notice the the counting, everything is either divided or multiplied by 2. So as long as your shutter speed is slower than 1s, you will never end with an odd number. Hence "I have to open my shutter for 47s" shows the person have no idea what he's talking about. Other than that, if the shutter speed is not close to a full stop or a half or third stop, he/she also have no idea as well. So if it looks as random as "52s", it's as random as it looks.

wow! Thanks for taking the time for this in-depth explanation! Big thanks to you :) I'll need to practise more, albeit on my sketchy VND but it's a starting point! I'll get a "proper" ND filter once am more confident with assessing the situation and calculations! ; )
Thank you!
 

You can still use your VND, just that you can't trust the markings and don't use the highest strengths heh... and if you notice other aberrations eg more flare or reduction is sharpness which impacts your final image then maybe it's time to get a better one. VND are especially useful for video work, for photography can still get fixed ND filters. Depending on the types of photography, the ones more commonly used in landscapes are the 10 stop and 3 stop filters, add a 6 stop for in-between if you can't get the shutter speed for sunrise / sunset timings.

You can also still use apps, they generally are ok however you still need to know the basics so that you know when it's not correct and adjust accordingly. And as the master has said, you get more familiar with practice.

Ah you are using the Fuji, so my "aperture priority" mode might not make sense. I'm not a Fuji user, but from my previous brief hands on with one, I think you have to set the shutter speed to 'A' so that the camera can choose the shutter speed according to it's light meter. Then set the desired Aperture and ISO value and carry on from there to find out the strength of the filter.

Happy experimenting! :)
 

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Yes LOL, I got mine from SLR revolution, at $88 (!) and learned it the hard way. But it's all good! I have to start somewhere and a VND allows me to experiment as I would have no idea which grade to buy if it's a single grade ND filter. I may have to invest in a good 10 stop ND filter for bright daylight conditions, as I get the "promised" trippy efx near the 11th stop on my VND haha. I gave thoongeng my learnings in my reply to him :D

Thanks for your advice! Very much appreciated! :)

VNDs are actually most useful in video shooting where we want to keep the shutter speed to twice the framerate. For stills single density filters are still the best in terms of quality.
 

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