Canon 500D (T1i) vs Nikon D90

[MelbourneGuy]

Gosh, I think you're being a little oversensitive here. I've read plenty of posts debating Ken Rockwell and thought it might make somebody reading this smile. It obviously didn't. I apologise. I never made anything personal towards you though. Peace?

The 12/14-bit thing has got me confused because I don't understand it all that much. I know that Canon's entire line supports 14-bit. But with Nikon you have to jump past the D90 to get it. I just don't know how much it matters or what limitations it imposes. I thought it gave better tonal range having more bits. Please don't criticise me if I'm wrong. Educate me

 

[Edwin Francis]

It's funny that you have issues with Ken Rockwell -- he actually has quite a good article comparing Nikon and Canon:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/nikon-vs-canon.htm

If you can't be bothered to read it, the first line sums it up, "Nikon and Canon are as good as each other".

12-bit a disadvantage compared to 14-bit? Tell that to all the 12-bit DSLR users who have created incredible images. You will probably never notice the difference.

If you really waited "ages" waiting for the 500D to come out to make your decision, then you've probably just wasted "ages" when you could have been out taking photos and having fun

Go try the models you've shortlisted, ask a friend if you can try theirs for a while if that's possible. You'll probably get a better idea of which system you prefer that way than poring through all the in-depth reviews.

 

[MelbourneGuy]

Agreed. And thanks. Analysis paralysis gets me every time!
I've read his article. I thought it was a little silly comparing lens caps etc, but I'm just going to drop the whole KR thing!
But in all humility, regarding 12/14-bit and tonal range, wouldn't you like as much as you can get? I know there are some stunning photos taken with 12-bit, but technology marches on. I'm not so concerned with the image as it's taken, but what possibilities having 14-bit images opens up in post-processing in Photoshop etc. It's not me saying this (I don't understand it fully which is why I'm posting the question here). I'm going by some pages I've found which are making me question this:

http://loewald.com/blog/?p=313
http://www.flickr.com/groups/nikon_d90_users/discuss/72157607808191942/
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D90/D90A.HTM
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10026094-1.html

 

[ggodetucsamoht]

How much did you pay for the 70-200 f/2.8 L?


Taken from the Canon and Nikon subforum
AF-S VR 70-200mm f/2.8G IF-ED - $2450 (TK, Dec08 - xtemujin) | $2450 (MS, Sep08 - Xiao_Shin) | $2500 (CP, Sep08 - MaZaCA) | $2450 (AP, Nov08 - Joe1031)

EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM (Yen280,000/US$1700) RS$3,300 - CP-M$2,450 (INC. GST)/ CP S$2336.00 (Dec 2008)/ MS$2,565/ TCW$2,800/ AP-F$2,430 (Ex-GST)/ JO$2580/ OP$2650

you generally dont seems to agree with what i say bro. does there's a need to bold my word on your quote? always means what? always means often, most of the time but not every time right?

please compare also 17-55f2.8 nikon and canon pricing, please go and compare also on 50 f1.8 pricing too.

 

[gymak90]

you generally dont seems to agree with what i say bro.
please compare also 17-55f2.8 nikon and canon pricing, please go and compare also on 50 f1.8 pricing too.

Actually, the problem is you used the word: always.

So here, zerocoolastra has shown you why "Always" is not a right word to use.

 

[ggodetucsamoht]

Actually, the problem is you used the word: always.

So here, zerocoolastra has shown you why "Always" is not a right word to use.

always means what? always is not every time right? eg, i always skip breakfast but not everyday i will skip the breakfast right?

Always will give people a thoughts that it is the fact but sometime have side circumstances right??

 

[MelbourneGuy]

Maybe we all need a bit of sleep since it's almost 2am I never intended to start this. In fact, I hope to meet you guys one day at a ClubSnap newbie gathering!

 

[ggodetucsamoht]

Maybe we all need a bit of sleep since it's almost 2am I never intended to start this. In fact, I hope to meet you guys one day at a ClubSnap newbie gathering

no worry, forum will always have such conflicts and misunderstanding flying around.

not to flame each other or kena flame by others, just wanted to aware the TS (you) for the ideal selection on your first DSLR.

both 500D and D90 is really good camera around but there might be a price difference when taking consideration for their lens prices and i shall metion again nikon lens generally is higher in prices.

 

[MelbourneGuy]

Thanks mate, appreciate your well-intended feedback!

 

[ZerocoolAstra]

you generally dont seems to agree with what i say bro. does there's a need to bold my word on your quote? always means what? always means often, most of the time but not every time right?

please compare also 17-55f2.8 nikon and canon pricing, please go and compare also on 50 f1.8 pricing too.

Definition of 'ALWAYS' from Merriam-Webster dictionary:

ALWAYS

1) at all times - invariably
2) forever, perpetually
3) at any rate: in any event

I don't see any definition like "often, most of the time"
I don't want to start another Canon-Nikon debate here.
I just want you to be careful of the words you write. Especially since this is a newbies subforum. If you make these sort of statements sounding like a pro or an experienced photographer, newbies would tend to believe you. Since your statement is not true ALL THE TIME, please don't make such statements.
I would have preferred you say something like "some of the more popular lens choices, such as the 50mm f/1.8, tend to be cheaper than their Nikon counterparts". That statement is true.

 

[ZerocoolAstra]

to TS (MelbourneGuy):
I did a quick read up of the difference between 12bit and 14bit RAW processing this morning.
Seems like 14bit does have 'SOME' benefit, but obviously at the expense of much larger file sizes.
But honestly I think you'd have to be such a stickler for details to know the difference.

To me, photography is about good composition and nice lighting to create 'wow' images, not pixel-peeping and comparing on test charts, etc.
Probably if you do very high-precision work and blow up to billboard size, you might appreciate the difference between 12bit and 14bit.

So ask yourself: what kind of photography are you interested in?

 

[MelbourneGuy]

It's funny that you have issues with Ken Rockwell -- he actually has quite a good article comparing Nikon and Canon:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/nikon-vs-canon.htm

If you can't be bothered to read it, the first line sums it up, "Nikon and Canon are as good as each other".

12-bit a disadvantage compared to 14-bit? Tell that to all the 12-bit DSLR users who have created incredible images. You will probably never notice the difference.

If you really waited "ages" waiting for the 500D to come out to make your decision, then you've probably just wasted "ages" when you could have been out taking photos and having fun

Go try the models you've shortlisted, ask a friend if you can try theirs for a while if that's possible. You'll probably get a better idea of which system you prefer that way than poring through all the in-depth reviews.

I guess the biggest thing worrying me since this will be my first dSLR camera is that once I buy I'm pretty much committed to that brand for lenses, flashes etc. So I really don't want to make the "wrong" choice.

 

[MelbourneGuy]

to TS (MelbourneGuy):
I did a quick read up of the difference between 12bit and 14bit RAW processing this morning.
Seems like 14bit does have 'SOME' benefit, but obviously at the expense of much larger file sizes.
But honestly I think you'd have to be such a stickler for details to know the difference.

To me, photography is about good composition and nice lighting to create 'wow' images, not pixel-peeping and comparing on test charts, etc.
Probably if you do very high-precision work and blow up to billboard size, you might appreciate the difference between 12bit and 14bit.

So ask yourself: what kind of photography are you interested in?

Thanks ZerocoolAstra. Appreciate your input. I guess you're right. I think half my problem is since I work in IT, I get carried away by specifications. Your comment about pixel peeping is probably true, although I have read that if I do processing in Photoshop it can result in loss of detail and if you start out with 14 bits instead of 12 then that loss won't be such a bad thing. But then again, I guess I'd have to be pixel peeping to notice the noise of the 500D's sensor too, or is it more noticeable with long exposures at night time? I just feel underqualified to make this decision

 

[spidercrown]

I'm a newbie, and I don't know as much as you do. That's why I'm here, to ask for advice I'm not trying to start a flame war.

Weather sealing is something I like in lenses because I want to avoid dust in them. The camera body has a dust cleaning system for its sensor.

And the statement from Ken Rockwell that sealed the deal for me was "The D40 is the only camera you will ever need". Lol The bit about me "hating Nikon" because of Ken was a joke, hence the smiley face.

Ahh, u hate him cos he hail nikon, but tell you what, thr's ntg wrong with the statement indeed. He judge that sorely based on the price, whr majority of ppl can afford, and what else you need?
If canon has such price range of cam, you'll like him . And someone else will hate him lol.
Trust no one, but yourself. that oths opinion is just their preference.

 

[wildsoyabean]

from the post i read u seemed to be pro canon , so since u have already made up ur mind, why ask here.
u dont need approval from us to get a canon camera.

btw dun worry some much about lens,
1) u might not have the money to get the L lens, if u have, then its aint that hard to get 2 sets right nikon trinity and canon L = God like.
2) i made the assumption that u wont spend too much, so u might end up using third party lens, which support both canon and nikon, hence lens arguement is out.
3) bottomline is are u willing to pay $$$ for 500D or $$$for D90. my gut feel is u alreay have a preference for 500D, so just go get it...dun need to compare with D90.
if i haven start out on nikon i might just grab canon, or even fuji s5pro

 

[ZerocoolAstra]

Thanks ZerocoolAstra. Appreciate your input. I guess you're right. I think half my problem is since I work in IT, I get carried away by specifications. Your comment about pixel peeping is probably true, although I have read that if I do processing in Photoshop it can result in loss of detail and if you start out with 14 bits instead of 12 then that loss won't be such a bad thing. But then again, I guess I'd have to be pixel peeping to notice the noise of the 500D's sensor too, or is it more noticeable with long exposures at night time? I just feel underqualified to make this decision

I mistakenly left my D80 on ISO800 for a night-time long exposure shot.
After reviewing the first 2 shots on the LCD, the difference is obvious even on the tiny 2.5" screen.
But the general rule-of-thumb for night landscapes is to use low ISOs anyway, so that noise is kept to a minimum.
Generally I believe that the more megapixels you cram into a cropped sensor like Nikon's DX, the worse the noise levels will be. Nikon's D90 (vs my D80) proved otherwise though.

I shoot mainly in JPG, coz as I said earlier i'm just a hobbyist who reviews on his screen and prints 4R or 5R. 12bit vs 14bit makes absolutely no difference to me.

 

[unclesam]

It's not so much on the spec, but how your pictures turn out. :embrass:

 

[MelbourneGuy]

I mistakenly left my D80 on ISO800 for a night-time long exposure shot.
After reviewing the first 2 shots on the LCD, the difference is obvious even on the tiny 2.5" screen.
But the general rule-of-thumb for night landscapes is to use low ISOs anyway, so that noise is kept to a minimum.
Generally I believe that the more megapixels you cram into a cropped sensor like Nikon's DX, the worse the noise levels will be. Nikon's D90 (vs my D80) proved otherwise though.

I shoot mainly in JPG, coz as I said earlier i'm just a hobbyist who reviews on his screen and prints 4R or 5R. 12bit vs 14bit makes absolutely no difference to me.

Thanks. I'm slowly being converted to Nikon The D90 does seem a little heavy though...I have a bad back and weight is an issue. Oh well.

 

[GoheadGostern]

Hi TS

firstly. Pls dont make sweeping statements. makes you sound like a fool.

secondly. as a newbie, do you think the difference of 12-bit and 14-bit gg to make you a better photographer?

thirdly. Kenrockwell says "all i need is a d40". here he is trying to say that you dont need those expensive camera ( as a hobbyist ) to take stunning pictures. ( my interpretation )

fourthly, you sound like a canon supporter ( shooting down Nikon stuff most of the time ), then why bother thinking abt D90. get 500D then

fifth, it is not really up to the camera to decide if you do get stunning images. but it is YOU who makes the difference. no matter how good the camera is, if you not good at photography you will not get good images. so think it is better if you emphasize more of your skills rather than on the make/build of the camera

six, Canon Or Nikon, once you go thru the image in Photoshop, alter the colors, reduce the noise bla bla bla. it doesnt really matter which camp you go for. 2 similiar images taken by the 2 camera mention may just have the same output after photoshop.

Cheers
Shaz

 

[MelbourneGuy]

from the post i read u seemed to be pro canon , so since u have already made up ur mind, why ask here.
u dont need approval from us to get a canon camera.

btw dun worry some much about lens,
1) u might not have the money to get the L lens, if u have, then its aint that hard to get 2 sets right nikon trinity and canon L = God like.
2) i made the assumption that u wont spend too much, so u might end up using third party lens, which support both canon and nikon, hence lens arguement is out.
3) bottomline is are u willing to pay $$$ for 500D or $$$for D90. my gut feel is u alreay have a preference for 500D, so just go get it...dun need to compare with D90.
if i haven start out on nikon i might just grab canon, or even fuji s5pro

What is this trinity you are talking about?
I wouldn't get a third party lens probably because it's my understanding that you lose things like image stabilisation/VR and silent wave motor/USM.

I read that digital cameras, unlike film cameras, tend to show a bit of noise with long exposures at night time (even with low ISOs)...is that true?