Malay and Mandarin Chapter

[Winsonapm]

The Wedding Photographer Association of Singapore’s (WPAS) first AGM is coming up by end of March, we may need to pass a few new resolutions.

It was brought up on a few occasions on the need to create a Mandarin and a Malay Chapter. We would like to gauge the interests from the various ethic groups of Wedding Photographers.

It would be great to hear your comments on why you voted Yes, if No, why?
It's business. Let's keep it civilise and no racist remark, please.

 

[ungku]

I do not think that there is a need.

 

[CYRN]

Umm... How about the others?

 

[simranjits]

What about the jewish chapter?

 

[Winsonapm]

I do not think that there is a need.

Why not?

What about the jewish chapter?

If there are enough interests from the Jewish community, we'll be happy to work on one. For our interests, how big is our Jewish population in S'pore? :bigeyes:

The responses from the Malay Wedding Photographers is good so far, :thumbsup: we'll definitely have a chapter for our brothers. With one or two representations on the committee to sweat it out. Perhaps those interested may want to post a wishlist or what you would like to see happening with WPAS.

 

[synapseman]

Well, if I may, I strongly oppose the idea. (And do note that a poll such as this might have absolutely no bearing on what the general population truly feels).

The number of inter-ethnic marriages are increasing in Singapore. Malay-Chinese, Eurasian-Chinese, Western-Indian and whatever combinations you can think of. As such, there'd be little relevance of having such chapters.

Secondly, being part of a particular "ethnic chapter" might encourage some sort of "photographic inbreeding". Meaning each group will always keep to themselves, and learn nothing beyond what they are familiar with, and as such, may not have a chance to learn more about the cultures and photographic styles of another race.

Thirdly, the photographic community in Singapore is already polarised (let's be honest here). CS is largely Chinese-dominated, and the Malays have their own local photographic forum. We already have the "us", "you" and "them" mentality. Although it would be nice, it's also not realistic to reverse the trend of Chinese couples hiring Chinese photographers, or Indians hiring Indian photographers, is there a need to formalise this compartmentalisation?

Fourthly, where will it end? If there aren't enough numbers to make up say, the Eurasian or Naturalised Singaporean (which could be further subdivided into African, West Asian, South Asian, European, etc?), how would they be represented? There's a danger of marginalisation here. And also, when it comes to weddings, religious customs play at least as important role as traditional ethnic customs, so when a person is say, an Indian photographer, he may be familiar with Indian-Hindu weddings, and not Indian-Catholic weddings. So will there be subcategories for ethinic/religious groupings as well?

Just playing Devil's advocate here. Not trying to make life difficult.

What are the specific reasons that led to the proposal of this idea?

For me, I envision WPAS to be an assoc for Wedding Photographers in Sg - Anybody's wedding.

A suggestion might be that each WPAS photographer has a profile that states his/her relevant experience in photographing different types of traditional weddings Chinese/Malay/Indian, or even an option for "any", backed up with an online portfolio of his/her works. This will allow the freedom of choice from the potential client's perspective.

 

[Winsonapm]

Just playing Devil's advocate here. Not trying to make life difficult.

What are the specific reasons that led to the proposal of this idea?

For me, I envision WPAS to be an assoc for Wedding Photographers in Sg - Anybody's wedding.

A suggestion might be that each WPAS photographer has a profile that states his/her relevant experience in photographing different types of traditional weddings Chinese/Malay/Indian, or even an option for "any", backed up with an online portfolio of his/her works. This will allow the freedom of choice from the potential client's perspective.

I agreed and understood your 4 points of concern and noted with care. :sweat: This is what we should see in forums, constructive thoughts, pointers and suggestions. :thumbsup::thumbsup: With CS’s support, WPAS is using this biz section to gather feedbacks.

As we can see by now, there is no interest in a Mandarin Chapter. As you rightly pointed in your pt. 3, the market and CS are dominated by Chinese Photogs with most of them English speaking. But they are a couple of Chinese Photog whom are Mandarin speaking only and could not participate or contribute with a lack of language skill. Without interest or support, it’ll be a no-go.

“is there a need to formalise this compartmentalisation?”
Our concern too, how to avoid it?
10 Malay Photogs felt there’s a need to form a Malay Chapter. How do we proceed from here?

I think the crossing sharing of practices and rituals amongst the various races are very interesting with cross-marriages. The Malay Weddings have lots of customs, rituals and religious processes. It’s unique and ethic based. I’ve met and got to know some Malay Photogs whom are very talented with great works. Liked the Chinese wedding market, there’s professionalism issues, low-priced and under-cutting. We’ve a small market with about 20,000 marriages a year, about 1000 photographers sharing or fighting over this small pie. How to be recognized as a Professional Wedding Photographer?

 

[razor]

Hey!

I bumped into u at your shop the other day.

 

[synapseman]

I agreed and understood your 4 points of concern and noted with care. :sweat: This is what we should see in forums, constructive thoughts, pointers and suggestions. :thumbsup::thumbsup: With CS’s support, WPAS is using this biz section to gather feedbacks.

As we can see by now, there is no interest in a Mandarin Chapter. As you rightly pointed in your pt. 3, the market and CS are dominated by Chinese Photogs with most of them English speaking. But they are a couple of Chinese Photog whom are Mandarin speaking only and could not participate or contribute with a lack of language skill. Without interest or support, it’ll be a no-go.

“is there a need to formalise this compartmentalisation?”
Our concern too, how to avoid it?
10 Malay Photogs felt there’s a need to form a Malay Chapter. How do we proceed from here?

I think the crossing sharing of practices and rituals amongst the various races are very interesting with cross-marriages. The Malay Weddings have lots of customs, rituals and religious processes. It’s unique and ethic based. I’ve met and got to know some Malay Photogs whom are very talented with great works. Liked the Chinese wedding market, there’s professionalism issues, low-priced and under-cutting. We’ve a small market with about 20,000 marriages a year, about 1000 photographers sharing or fighting over this small pie. How to be recognized as a Professional Wedding Photographer?

Well, there's no easy solution to this. I can offer only my opinion. Perhaps during the next AGM, it'll be easier to gather more feedback from more people?

The problem that I see is that once a Malay (for e.g.) chapter is formed, what would it mean? What purpose would it actually serve? Networking perhaps? But this already can be done without the need for any official segmentation. Would this mean that only Malays will have access to shooting Malay weddings? Or Chinese can only shoot Chinese weddings? What if a person, due to mixed-marriage/mixed parentage wants to shoot both?

Maybe one way we can approach this discussion is to flesh out exactly why we need several race-based chapters. What are the benefits, and who will benefit from this? There may yet be logical and pragmatic reasons behind this, and if that is the case, then having such chapters may actually be justified. It's just that, from my own perspective, I can find no positive or real reasons to support the need for establishing such chapters.

 

[zechraffie]

Just out of curiosity and not totally irrelevant - how many members are there in the WPAS?

By the time you subdivide it further, what do you end up with? Is it a number which is meaningful?

Would it not work better for the common good to formulate actions which can better build the cohesiveness of the association instead of one which may potentially polarise members further?

 

[mo2]

To those whom question the viability of even a WPAS ...

Forgive those whom are ignorant & too much of themselves to understand the importance of minute details & efforts put together for the good of photography community.

ARE U TOO PROUD or YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL !!

There's a word ...

procrastinate:
to keep delaying something that must be done, often because it is unpleasant or boring

WHY PROCRASTINATE ? ... JUST DO IT ?? YOU DONT TRY YOU WONT KNOW !!

:think:

 

[synapseman]

To those whom question the viability of even a WPAS ...

Forgive those whom are ignorant & too much of themselves to understand the importance of minute details & efforts put together for the good of photography community.

ARE U TOO PROUD or YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL !!

There's a word ...

procrastinate:
to keep delaying something that must be done, often because it is unpleasant or boring

WHY PROCRASTINATE ? ... JUST DO IT ?? YOU DONT TRY YOU WONT KNOW !!

:think:

Who are you screaming and shouting at?

If you say that this is something that "must be done", then I'd like to ask, "why?"

Setting up a chapter isn't too difficult. Type out a few stuff, a few mouseclicks, and there we have it - as many chapters as you want.

However, there may be ramifications, and I prefer that we carefully consider the various factors before committing to anything. Remember, in this particular instance, we are dealing with categorization based on race, which is not something to be taken lightly. I'm sorry that you think us as detractors who are just trying to stall the process. I don't think of it as procrastination; I think of it as being careful. You don't try, you won't know? I'm not going to jump into the ocean just to find out what it feels like without doing my homework first.

I'm actually glad that Winson is taking the time to gather feedback first. If WPAS were to be callous enough to anyhow adopt a "Just Do It" attitude for anything, then we will be headed for serious trouble. Nobody's questioning the viability of WPAS itself (not within this discussion anyway); I'm just concerned about the proposed chapters within WPAS.

(By the way, have you cast your vote yet?)

 

[CYRN]

.....

“is there a need to formalise this compartmentalisation?”
Our concern too, how to avoid it?
10 Malay Photogs felt there’s a need to form a Malay Chapter. How do we proceed from here?

....

I'm neutral on this... but below are my $0.02 thoughts...

WPAS was set up precisely because the photogs are fragmented in the first place, I'm thinking we should consolidate as a whole and gain sufficient momentum before we start segmentation... I'm saying it's good... but only if it doesn't dilute our focus.

Why not ask them what they envision by having a chapter? It's easy to form a chapter, but who will run it and what will the load on WPAS limited resources? How will the chapter be represented in ExCo...etc.

I don't know who the 10 photogs are personally, but if you think they can be a seed to significant improvement in the industry, AND they are willing to take necessary action to organize and recruit their focus group, mabbe we should give them reasonable support. :think:

 

[mo2]

Allo ...

There's 2 ways to read the message .... Screaming or Stressing to make a point ...

Look at the 'smiley' properly :think: ... It's a PONDERING !! Smiley !!

Why get so worked up?

WPAS needs people like you with a voice.

It's all abt brainstorming together, so why not join WPAS then brainstorm to get it working.

 

[mo2]

Remember Singapore MULTI RACIAL ...

It's like having a sub committee to look into the malay or mandarin come together to unite,
and then report to main committee.

United we stand ... divided we still stand ... but it's gonna be tougher to survive ...

Why do you think there's more co-op amongst the top wedding photographers ...

 

[zechraffie]

Remember Singapore MULTI RACIAL ...

It's like having a sub committee to look into the malay or mandarin come together to unite,
and then report to main committee.

United we stand ... divided we still stand ... but it's gonna be tougher to survive ...

Why do you think there's more co-op amongst the top wedding photographers ...

If i read this correctly, what you're saying is that by dividing WPAS into chapters by racial lines, we are uniting?

Maybe i'm slow - but i can't see the logic of it all. Why can't the unity be done without dividing along racial lines?

thinking your thoughts through isn't procrastination - someone wise has said - there are ramifications.

Hurray if unity results, but what if the opposite holds true?

 

[simranjits]

Maybe you can call it malay weddings chapter , chinese weddings chapter , hindu weddings chapter, sikh wedding chapter, jewish wedding chapter, christian wedding chapter. Then race of the photographer not impt , but they need to understand the complexities of each type of wedding. I know a bit hard but it will be better in the long run. I mean you can have malays doing lion dance etc , so it is entirely possible to have a chinese covering a malay wedding.

 

[synapseman]

Allo ...

There's 2 ways to read the message .... Screaming or Stressing to make a point ...

Look at the 'smiley' properly :think: ... It's a PONDERING !! Smiley !!

Why get so worked up?

WPAS needs people like you with a voice.

It's all abt brainstorming together, so why not join WPAS then brainstorm to get it working.

Sorry, man. It's hard to judge sometimes, but netiquette dictates that if you type in caps (and end it with double exclamation marks), and put in bold red words, it does imply screaming and shouting.

Anyway, I have put in my application to WPAS quite some time ago, but I'm not sure if it has been rejected or not, since I do not fulfil certain criteria. Nonetheless, I still want to support the industry as best I can.

Moving right along...

With regards to having such chapters as sub-committees, again, fundamentally we need to ask: Why?

Generally, sub-committees are formed on a temporary basis when there's a project that's too large to be handled by a regular committee. If WPAS has all these sub-comms, what is there to "report" to the main committee?

Maybe from another perspective, having chapters could be a stepping stone for groups to eventually break away from WPAS to form their own association? (I'm just speculating the possibilities).

According to the polls, there are people who are in support for separate chapters within WPAS. Maybe we can invite them to give opinions about this matter? Like I mentioned before, if there are indeed good reasons why we should do so, then of course we should all throw in our support to make this happen.

 

[Winsonapm]

Well, there's no easy solution to this. I can offer only my opinion. Perhaps during the next AGM, it'll be easier to gather more feedback from more people?

The problem that I see is that once a Malay (for e.g.) chapter is formed, what would it mean? What purpose would it actually serve? Networking perhaps? But this already can be done without the need for any official segmentation. Would this mean that only Malays will have access to shooting Malay weddings? Or Chinese can only shoot Chinese weddings? What if a person, due to mixed-marriage/mixed parentage wants to shoot both?

Maybe one way we can approach this discussion is to flesh out exactly why we need several race-based chapters. What are the benefits, and who will benefit from this? There may yet be logical and pragmatic reasons behind this, and if that is the case, then having such chapters may actually be justified. It's just that, from my own perspective, I can find no positive or real reasons to support the need for establishing such chapters.

You may be reading too much and overly concern, I do not know too. It’ll be up to the chapter to evolve on a fair play and to follow the rules of WPAS. There will be benefits and it can only be achieved with hard work. Don’t expect to form a Chapter and rest back and enjoy, it doesn’t work this way. As of now, we would only work on one Malay Chapter, not several.

Just out of curiosity and not totally irrelevant - how many members are there in the WPAS?

By the time you subdivide it further, what do you end up with? Is it a number which is meaningful?

Would it not work better for the common good to formulate actions which can better build the cohesiveness of the association instead of one which may potentially polarise members further?

WPAS has 40+ members and a couple of Malay Brothers. We should eventually reach 100 to be effective and better funded.

If i read this correctly, what you're saying is that by dividing WPAS into chapters by racial lines, we are uniting?

Maybe i'm slow - but i can't see the logic of it all. Why can't the unity be done without dividing along racial lines?

thinking your thoughts through isn't procrastination - someone wise has said - there are ramifications.

Hurray if unity results, but what if the opposite holds true?

It is very common for Associations and organizations having chapters and groupings for various interests. It would be better managed, more focus and commitment.

A classic example would be the SCCCI, they have groupings and interests “polarized” into Teochew, Cantonese, Hakka, etc

Unlike sub-committees that look after functions like PR, Recruiting, D&D, etc,.

When I started this poll, I’m mindful of the sensitivities along racial line and religious taboos. Since these issues are already existence, why not face it with an open mind?

Maybe you can call it malay weddings chapter , chinese weddings chapter , hindu weddings chapter, sikh wedding chapter, jewish wedding chapter, christian wedding chapter. Then race of the photographer not impt , but they need to understand the complexities of each type of wedding. I know a bit hard but it will be better in the long run. I mean you can have malays doing lion dance etc , so it is entirely possible to have a chinese covering a malay wedding.

As we can see by now, there’s no interest in a Chinese Chapter with 8 against the idea. But 12 polled for a Malay Chapter with 5 Nos. It will be up to the interested group to push for their interests and create an identidy and perhaps reinforce the customary practice of Malay weddings.

We see the Chinese weddings evolving to torturing the groom, the mix of western practice of cakes and champagne, the Pernarakans vanishing rituals. We have a mixed culture, or are we are losing our traditions?

A wedding photog is tasked to catch the moments, knowledge of the various procceeding would be a strength and a major consideration in appointing one. I’ve been printing lots of coffee table books for Malay photogs for Chinese, Chinese Photogs for Indian weddings, etc,. Malay Lion dance, no.

If there are Sikh, Jewish, etc, groupings coming forward, we should look into it as a multi-racial country. I’m neutral on this issue too, I’m just facilitating.

 

[artfakeme]

I think, there is no need to create a chapter. If the intention is to help a different race photographer to shoot another race wedding, u can always open up a new thread for that and let every body contribute.

To learn another race wedding custom just need more practice. Perhaps when the thread is open, whoever is interested to shoot and experience it, can always invite or ask for opportunity.