Was wandering into Portraits and Poses section just now, and couldn't help but wonder, when someone posted a picture or pictures, and states that he is just sharing, do you guys think its a little disrespectful to threadstarter by giving tons of "ideas" to "improve" his version? Not that his picture is bad, actually pretty well taken, with good PP as well, but somehow, someone just wants to give his direction to make this picture "his". As I could not start a poll, so maybe would like to hear what others think. Eg of the thread I saw: http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402186
Sharing of picture in Clubsnap
- Thread starter Macho-san
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I agree with you, but you should always listen to professional comments to improve 
;p
If it does happen to you one day. You can always admit that it was an honest mistake and ask them to move on to another thread
;p If it does happen to you one day. You can always admit that it was an honest mistake and ask them to move on to another thread
well, there are people who state explicitly that they do not want comments, that is fine.
otherwise i guess it is free game for all. it is a public forums, public forums are for discussion and sharing. if you post to showcase, then won't it be better to put in website proper? that is the unwritten premise, i feel.
otherwise i guess it is free game for all. it is a public forums, public forums are for discussion and sharing. if you post to showcase, then won't it be better to put in website proper? that is the unwritten premise, i feel.
.... particularly when the shooting styles of the individuals are so diff....
what to do? just come across a thread in depreview the poster mentioned that ever since he went to photography club weekly for the critiques lesson.... he being enjoying less and less of the hobby in particularly when the 'seniors' talk abt the supposely rite way to take and framing. a pics...the writer mentioned that after every time he still take the style he like to take ...knwing that he be castigated for doing so...had put a strain on his hobby..eventually decided to stop going for the weekly critique session and is now much happier than before...
what to do? just come across a thread in depreview the poster mentioned that ever since he went to photography club weekly for the critiques lesson.... he being enjoying less and less of the hobby in particularly when the 'seniors' talk abt the supposely rite way to take and framing. a pics...the writer mentioned that after every time he still take the style he like to take ...knwing that he be castigated for doing so...had put a strain on his hobby..eventually decided to stop going for the weekly critique session and is now much happier than before...
I believe he may have done that, but since this forum is pertaining to Singapore, and he might be a Singaporean or person staying here, he might just want to share it to the local community instead.
I guess if you were to explicitly state that you dun want comments, you will be labeled as someone who thinks he is already at the top and needs no comments for improvement. However, as photography is a very subjective art, he may not want others to help him do it in any other ways, but to explicitly say "no comments please", he would be inviting unwanted comments, could be even worst than the "suggestions" that were the "norm" here. So I guess he says "just sharing", is to hope the rest will get the idea.. I believe some words are not meant to be said so explicitly..
i think it depends on the individual, how open-minded he is.
if the "seniors" are talking sense and pointing out the problems with his photos correctly, rather than enforcing senseless rules like "rule of thirds", giving rigid color palettes, etc.. then there is something to bring away and he should not take things too personally. life is too short for that, if one can improve while being slammed horribly, and one has the heart to improve, then one will accept the slamming.
then again, if he cannot tolerate such comments then perhaps it is better he stay away.. that much is true. not everyone is the same.
i do think it is fair to say that everyone has their own point of view and style, that much is true. some are more traditional, some like to try to develop their own style and break free of "classic rules".. but if you say that the first group cannot contribute to the latter and vice versa.. then i have to vehemently disagree.
so you are saying that
he wants to beat around the bush, but has no tolerance for people who fail to see that he is beating around the bush? we are not born mind-readers.
in an equal breath, you might as well say that people who state "all c&c welcome' are actually hinting that they do not want critique. or people who do not state explicitly that they want critique might actually thirst for critique. it is highly possible.. so are you saying that the first few posts in the thread should be to clarify if the person actually wants critique? then it is a hard life indeed.
i would view the hypothetical person you have constructed above as extremely hypocritical. why fear being labelled, if it is indeed the truth that you do not want comments? :dunno:
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As much as I wish this world is as clear as binary can be, but it isn't.. so I am not sure if u can say that u never needed to hint anything in life at all, cos if u can, either you are very lucky, or you are very unlucky..
But besides the hinting part, I believe some may prefer to learn things slow, taking time to enjoy the hobby he engages in, and liking the results he is getting(thats why he shares). To be "corrected" by so called "seniors" who sometimes like to act as one without knowing that art is so subjective, will dampens the enjoyable process of improving one selves photography, much like the aging of wine..
you don't get my point.
everyone and anyone will benefit from anyone or everyone else commenting in his photos, so long as the intention and starting point is a genuine and sincere one. there is no so-called division between so-called seniors or juniors or what in my book. what basis is there for the denomination here you propose? age? experience? all that count for naught, what matters is the end result we see here. if the so-called senior is commenting to put people down, it is obvious and one should just ignore him. if the so-called junior is commenting and spouting ignorance, then one should just as equally ignore him (for example, calling an infrared photo "excessively manipulated" when that is an out-of-camera result) because he does not know what he say.
art is subjective, but if only the artist understands his art, then maybe the artist should wonder if he is using this "art is subjective" tagline to prevent a convenient excuse to be exempt from criticism. there is art, there will be critics, there will be comments, there will be judgements. are you telling me that you can look at something that someone calls "art' and feel nothing about it?
another question - if your art has no one around to appreciate it, then have you heard of the phrase 孤方自赏? what is art that only one person can appreciate?
i am sure people are going to move out old skeletons, misunderstood artists that became popular later on, and then use this to provide excuses as to why their work is art, and no one should comment on it because art is subjective. then my reply is simple - those artists got negative comments, later on their work was realised.. won't the success be sweeter then?
Just feel that these days ... things are getting too liberal and getting out of hand.
Personally, critiques by the seasoned more senior shooters DO HELP in you getting your shot and how to frame / visualize it next time.
Its how it works when we were once all shooting in film. Its hard to maintain the same discipline with digital now.
I for one, miss this kind of treatment as it pushes oneself learn... to improve and to "visualize" even before pressing the shutter.
Personally, critiques by the seasoned more senior shooters DO HELP in you getting your shot and how to frame / visualize it next time.
Its how it works when we were once all shooting in film. Its hard to maintain the same discipline with digital now.
I for one, miss this kind of treatment as it pushes oneself learn... to improve and to "visualize" even before pressing the shutter.
rather in the opposite direction, in the quest to be oh-so-liberal and think out of the box (what a cliched term) many just end up trapping themselves in another one that they cannot get out of. i cannot think of any name for it but "self-stabbing liberalism" - it preaches "freedom" to lead to the greater development of art, but it also prohibits comments on this. i wonder why none of those using the "this is art" defense ever stop to think that hey, there are examples where artists have gotten new styles PRECISELY because of criticism, and not necessarily due to lack thereof.
to think that one little comment, 2 paragraph of words is going to cause a paradigm shift is amusing to me. there are so many other factors other than comments on clubsnap, but oh, a single post is going to "hinder development of art".. i must say the thought is extremely ludicrous to me.
i have no idea why everytime i post here i end up using this quote from rushdie:
but photography is a viewpoint, is it not? it is an opinion, your take on the scene you see. if we must be liberal and allow for art and development of art, then similarly, development of criticism that is properly done, and not infringing the division between "art" and "person".. should be given greater leeway. it is one thing to say that a person's photograph is poor, but linking it to his character, i.e. that he is lazy, that he is retarded, or stupid, etc.. is another thing altogether. and that is the sort of comment that should not be tolerated.
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i do get your point, I never said its wrong, but living in this imperfect world, sometimes we need to have some "EQ" when it comes to dealing with people.. I know this is a public forum, but somehow there should be some respect and courtesy when commenting or criticising. And for the thread i mentioned, the TS did have a good picture, and personally think all the suggestions does not really "improve" the picture, just one's own version of how he may want to shoot. And when he mentioned "just sharing", my interpretation is, he wants to let me see what he thinks is a good picture created by him. Even if I think its better if I do the shoot in my way, I still should respect him by not giving him ideas as though he is incompetent enough to pull the thing off(at least thats what also interpreted from the comments given by some, and i also question these guys' sincerity). In this TS's case, I think i can appreciate his art, and so he is definitely not 孤方自赏.
The main thing I wish to bring up is, whether to one should exercise some restrain when commenting.
so are we talking about general cases or this particular case? you cannot just change the topic as and when suits you, if we are to have a less than frivolous discussion. you are displaying a lack of conviction as to what point you are trying to make. if you have seized on this particular topic to make a point about restraint when it comes to commenting, then it is probably a poor example to drum on. otherwise, maybe you could stop hinting and state out your points clearly instead of grabbing onto random examples.. your points here do not seem to match what is displayed in the particular thread quoted.
for this particular case - i don't think that there is any lack of restraint shown in the thread, if there is, maybe you can elaborate without pointing fingers. the replies there have been cordial, polite and not too harsh.. literally no room for misunderstanding in fact! i think the comments made there are with good intentions, and frankly, there are some good points mentioned that can help the threadstarter. or are you going to just tar everything over with a broad brush and say that they are absolutely useless comments? i think that is disrespectful of you, to all the people who have commented.. since you feel that their opinion counts for naught.
for general cases.. then i think my point stands, and there is no need to point to this particular thread you have raised the issue on.. because of the previous paragraph.
in any case, eq usually goes out of the window when it comes to the internet. just think about it, if this was work-related, and your boss has the habit of commenting on work that is well done according to you, and adds on all sorts of comments as to how it can be better done.. would you send an email to your entire company discussing it? :bsmilie:
"when you look into the abyss, remember that the abyss looks into you."
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usually I only give comments to the photos when I see "C&C are welcomed", "please help me to improve" etc in the post.
If it states, "for your viewing pleasure", "like to share", "enjoying viewing" etc.... I only give compliments if it is deserve it.
If it states, "for your viewing pleasure", "like to share", "enjoying viewing" etc.... I only give compliments if it is deserve it.
there's also the seniors who take it upon themselves to police the forum, telling people if their shots are good or not or even force their ideas of what is good on the greenhorns. All this in the name of feeling self important and its especially prevalent when the find someone who dares to experiment slamming something using the word gimmick. what to do ts. some people just like to make themselves feel big.
when i get bad reviews, i take it as a challenge to improve upon the image until the same reviewers (if i respect their views) sorta like it
that is the learning process
if the poster of the image has a certain message he wants to say with his image, then he/she has to say so
if others cannot see it, then it does not work
that is the learning process
if the poster of the image has a certain message he wants to say with his image, then he/she has to say so
if others cannot see it, then it does not work
is that what art is though? something to illicit a reaction from its audience be it favorable or not?
Firstly, this is a photography forum and as such C & C should be an integral part of the concept of sharing photos..... nothing can change this concept.
Luckily, we have some hardcore c&c "resident-experts" here who will go to the extreme to really c&c, becoz without them, this place would be quite boring. The negative effect is that many photographers are frightened or disgusted by their harsh comments, which resulted in much lesser images now then in the past. This is actually a blessing in disguise as we used to get energetic snappers who used to load as much as 48 images in one shoot .... literally like looking at a movie stills :dunno:
Now, most ppl are careful with what they post ..... which actually is a waste, coz there are many nice images which they did not bother to post.
IMO, every photographers should have the will to develop their own style and preference and should not be disturbed by all those "experts" views here.
What i hated most is when photographers regretfully acknowledging fault or failure just because the "experts" were not happy with their style or contents.:think:
Luckily, we have some hardcore c&c "resident-experts" here who will go to the extreme to really c&c, becoz without them, this place would be quite boring. The negative effect is that many photographers are frightened or disgusted by their harsh comments, which resulted in much lesser images now then in the past. This is actually a blessing in disguise as we used to get energetic snappers who used to load as much as 48 images in one shoot .... literally like looking at a movie stills :dunno:
Now, most ppl are careful with what they post ..... which actually is a waste, coz there are many nice images which they did not bother to post.
IMO, every photographers should have the will to develop their own style and preference and should not be disturbed by all those "experts" views here.
What i hated most is when photographers regretfully acknowledging fault or failure just because the "experts" were not happy with their style or contents.:think:
sad to say hor, i don't think i am in a position to say what is art
but hor, i think that your art, is your expression
but hor, if you want to be able to sell your art
some people must learn to like it enough to part with their money
and if you are not interested to sell it
then hor, only your opinion matters
and everyone else can just *&^$#$^*
i think its something where you tell the audience the message you want, the *&%) with whether they react favourably or not. as long as your work isn't offensive, why not? you're not creating something just so the audience likes it, you're creating it to express yourself/transmit a message.
IMHO, and this maybe a sweeping statement, if you're creating it just to have the audience respond favourably and not to tell them something, then don't call it art.
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