Owned a D70, want to upgrade, not your typical d80 vs 400d thread

[glenncain]

Yes I have read 5 threads worth of d80 vs 400d.
Yes I also have tried them out in the shop.

Here's the deal. I shoot events, indoor group photos, on-stage events, just plenty of scene that is highly artificial light dependent and usually dim. I've failed terribly by my own standards to battle the lack-of-light war with the in-built speed light of my d70, and I am hoping that the slightly advance tech of d80 or 400d can assist here. I will get a speedlight in future, but for now, i'd like my upgrade to be self-sufficient against these slightly dim situations, eg a not very well lit morning in a room with a few windows, or a indoor environment totally dependent on artificial light for illumination. I also enjoy taking long range shots of various things here and there, so I am pretty sure a nikkor 18-200 vr will be my wife.

1.)Seems like it was mentioned by the shop assistant that the cmos sensor in 400d handles noise better. but by how much? anyone with a comparison photo? and anyone with pratical experience in this aspect from both cam?

2.)I am leaning on d80 as everyone else, the build and grip feel. but the LCD, though reported by some as superior, has displayed a lower quality picture than the 400d. I was doing identical shot, with large and fine jpeg on both. it seemed that the d80 lcd display a very noticeable amount of jpeg conversion artifacting. So is this a LCD problem or is the image processor or whatever on the d80 less superior? note that me and shop assistant have made doubly sure that both were large and fine jpeg.

Also, it is said that the d80 lcd displays "higher exposures" than the real data, so I am suppose to compensate up from what I see in the lcd. is that true?

3.)i swear the d80 is the sexiest body before the d200/40d range. Add a 18-200 nikkor to it and extend it all the way, and its feels like a big pride to my manhood. nice big heavy and long. great to hold. no don't think crooked. yes thats what I meant.

as much as all that, should the above problems be major concerns? as far as i know, i refuse to be stuck in the same situation as my d70 18-55mm, where i couldn't get a satisfyingly clean low noise picture in the dim state thought the stage was lit, and I couldn't zoom to where i needed to, of which i was 20-30 meters away.

Appreciate all the detailed help in advance

 

[Leong23]

Think you had somehow made up you mind on the choice.

If you are getting D80 and as you mentioned
1.)"I shoot events, indoor group photos, on-stage events, just plenty of scene that is highly artificial light dependent and usually dim"
2.)"and I couldn't zoom to where i needed to, of which i was 20-30 meters away"

The 18-200mm and built-in flash light will not bring you any better.

For event, f/2.8 lenses & external flash is quite essential
Nikon 17-55f/2.8 & 70-200f2.8 is a better choice if you're going serious into it.
Tamron 17-50f/2.8 is a good choice too.
SB800 will have further reach and faster recycling time, if not SB600 is quite ok too.

 

[Galdor]

Agree with what bro Leong23 has mentioned. You would need a faster/brighter lens and a SB600/800 to help you get the results you want. Changing the body would not help you much if the set up is still the same or even if you get the 18-200mm VR.

 

[chanxj]

A 18-200 lens is not the sharpest btw. What u need is an external flash as others have said. Changing the body is not really significant unless ur talking abt the D3

 

[alternatve]

Canon's sensors do have lower noise then Nikon sensors which are really Sony's. Now this is not a simple opinion, but something I've experienced while using both systems. This does not apply to the higher end Canon and Nikon offerings, the D300 and 40D of course, which has far superior performance.

I do prefer the D80 over the 400D due to the feel of the camera, but chose to go Canon over the wider range of accessories and their commitment to FF. So I got a 40D instead.

Samuel

 

[Zeckson Chow]

From your thread, I understand that you are more or less sold to the Nikon D80. Good choice. In your application, your main concern is low light photography so your thoughts should be addressing this direction.

What is considered important in low light photography are

- large apertures
- low shutter speeds
- vibration reduction
- tripod
- additional lights
- ISO

You can have a combination of the above in your photography. All are important. It is also good to have all if you have the money to spare and if you are making money out of your photography.

The Nikon D80 has a very nice feature that really works for me -- Auto ISO. Switch it on and you will love it in no time, especially in low light photography. It works even with the use of flash on the D80. The Nikon D80 has a tendency to expose images 1 ~ 1.5 stops brighter. Some like it, some don't. If you find that it always expose too much, simply dial down the Exposure Compensation, something that can be easily done with the fingers. Or you can choose to bring down the exposure when you are doing post processing.

Your choice of the AF-S VR Zoom-Nikkor 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED is a good choice. This lens almost covers everything you ever wanted to shoot. It gives you the very nice wide angles and the telephoto zoom that you need. It is an all-around lens and it is very addictive. Once mounted onto your Nikon D80, you may not want to take it out unless really necessary. It gives you all the convenience you desire for a light compact setup. With the vibration reduction, you can take images sharp in low light. But do not rely on VR too much because VR also has its limitations. A tripod is the best to remove motion blur. VR only reduces but not remove. People say that this lens is not as sharp. It actually depends on people's opinions. To me, I am perfectly satisfied with the results. If I feel that the images are not to my expectations, I just do a little sharpening on my editing software. It doesn't take much trouble. Of course, if you shoot a lot, then choose the best ones and edit it.

As for the LCD of the Nikon D80, I don't think having JPEG artifacts on the screen is a big concern. After all, the LCD is just to show you your composition, colours and exposure mainly, it is not meant for you to judge if the pictures are sharp or of top quality. You should always upload the pictures into your computer and view them on your monitor. That way you will have a good feel of your images. Just think, how can one determine if the image is tact sharp or not by just viewing on that small screen compared to your computer monitor?

From your post, I am assuming that you are taking this up as a hobby. Photography is an expensive hobby so always think a lot about spending money on this. Always weigh the priorities and always think about what you can do to counter what is missing. If it calls for buying the equipment, do it. If what is desired can be achieved by adjusting ourselves or by some simple procedures, see if you can live with it or without. Everything is cost here. Don't be fooled by people saying this is good and buy. If you are not making money out of your photography, or just yet, I recommend to do a lot of priority setting and weighing before making any purchases.

Good luck.

 

[nikkie]

it's over-examination of things. let me help speed up your decision.
just get
A: the D80 and SB600 and AF-S 18-200 in the same order.
forget about measurebating the equipments. you're wasting your time. it never ends.
if you find some 'shortcomings' in this 'A' setup bothering you, then get setup 'B' and vice versa.
B: the 400D, 430EX, equivalent of 18-200 (maybe from the 3rd parties) also in the same order.

the choice is simple, it's either A or B. make your life easy.

If you want low noise, but in a amateur cam, long range zoom but good IQ, good grip feel.. etc...
you either have to build your own camera, lens etc... it doesn't exist yet in such a package at the consumer price point. Even pro level equipments have alot of short-comings..

OT abit. i overhead one conversation in a party.. (2 gals were engaged in a conversation one step away). gal 1 said she's disappointed the guys in the party has none that looks like andy lau or at least handsome enough. gal 2 said she didn't spot any cool guys for the whole night. gal 1 said the her ideal man should be handsome like andy and cute like edison chen. gal 2 said she should expect the guy to be talented like emil? chau and stable. by then i was thinking, how in the world can they find such a package that at the same time is available to them and also fall for them? i also imagined they must look quite pleasant at least. i turned around and.....forget the rest of the story liao. but you get the drift of things? It's not that hard to imagine... just keep imagining.

 

[johngiam]

regarding the canon and nikon lcd. I am a nikon user and was told by a canon user that the canon lcd is not as accurate as nikon (i.e. what u see on nikon lcd is 85% on the computer, whereas his 350d tends to show very different effects on the computer) can some one also comment on this since I am curious like this thread starter.

 

[geraldkhoo]

Just a suggesstion... that you may like to consider the D60. I have not personally touched that camera, but heard that it handles high ISO pretty well... so maybe you would like to research on that. If you are getting the 18-200 VR, then you won't need the in-camera motor for non-AFS lenses, and D60 could be an option for your consideration

 

[LearninKin]

I own and shot quite a few events using d70 only/sb600.. sb600/800 is definitely a must..
i have used my boss's d80 on 3 occassions and my d70/sb600 combo is alot better than her d80 only..

my advice is to get the sb600.. $360 for tonnes better lighting for indoor shots is better than forking out a thousand +for d80..

 

[ortega]

what you need is a fast lens and a flash

 

[2.8photography]

canon 400D ISO 1600 sample, 100% crop (no pp except the crop)

not to say that canon's noise control is bad - a d70 would have probably performed as badly or even worse. but if ur considering shooting at iso 1600 under low lighting conditions, this is what to expect - unusable images for most

i do shoot a lot of indoor events too, and usually i try to use an f/2.8 tele lens, iso1600. but often its not possible, cos the lighting changes a lot and sometimes can be quite dim. thats where an external flash is a must

abt leong23's post, i believe that the sb800 actually has a slower recycling time as compared to the sb600, due to its bigger GN

 

[racoon31e]

what you need is a fast lens and a flash

short and sweet :thumbsup:

get a Tamron 17-50 f/2.8 and a SB-800. Should be cheaper than buying a new D80, and the pictures will turn out much better.

 

[geraldkhoo]

short and sweet :thumbsup:

get a Tamron 17-50 f/2.8 and a SB-800. Should be cheaper than buying a new D80, and the pictures will turn out much better.

and add on an Expodisc... or some white balance tool

 

[giantcanopy]

Dun think the D80 has any much significant noise improvement over the D70.
The only body to make a significant difference will be the D3.

Will need to rely on faster lens and a flash.

Or if u can, use primes, can offer even larger apertures such as 50mm/1.4 , 85mm/1.4, 105mm/2 DC ..

Ryan

 

[Snowcrash]

Yes I have read 5 threads worth of d80 vs 400d.
Yes I also have tried them out in the shop.

Here's the deal. I shoot events, indoor group photos, on-stage events, just plenty of scene that is highly artificial light dependent and usually dim. I've failed terribly by my own standards to battle the lack-of-light war with the in-built speed light of my d70, and I am hoping that the slightly advance tech of d80 or 400d can assist here. I will get a speedlight in future, but for now, i'd like my upgrade to be self-sufficient against these slightly dim situations, eg a not very well lit morning in a room with a few windows, or a indoor environment totally dependent on artificial light for illumination. I also enjoy taking long range shots of various things here and there, so I am pretty sure a nikkor 18-200 vr will be my wife.

1.)Seems like it was mentioned by the shop assistant that the cmos sensor in 400d handles noise better. but by how much? anyone with a comparison photo? and anyone with pratical experience in this aspect from both cam?

2.)I am leaning on d80 as everyone else, the build and grip feel. but the LCD, though reported by some as superior, has displayed a lower quality picture than the 400d. I was doing identical shot, with large and fine jpeg on both. it seemed that the d80 lcd display a very noticeable amount of jpeg conversion artifacting. So is this a LCD problem or is the image processor or whatever on the d80 less superior? note that me and shop assistant have made doubly sure that both were large and fine jpeg.

Also, it is said that the d80 lcd displays "higher exposures" than the real data, so I am suppose to compensate up from what I see in the lcd. is that true?

3.)i swear the d80 is the sexiest body before the d200/40d range. Add a 18-200 nikkor to it and extend it all the way, and its feels like a big pride to my manhood. nice big heavy and long. great to hold. no don't think crooked. yes thats what I meant.

as much as all that, should the above problems be major concerns? as far as i know, i refuse to be stuck in the same situation as my d70 18-55mm, where i couldn't get a satisfyingly clean low noise picture in the dim state thought the stage was lit, and I couldn't zoom to where i needed to, of which i was 20-30 meters away.

Appreciate all the detailed help in advance

My practical experience to share:-
1) Get a fast prime if external flash is not an option.
2) Learn when not to shoot as the light is too dim
3) D70 can still get the job done, but some will say using a 'new camera' D80 will give you more 'joy' in shooting.

 

[night86mare]

I also enjoy taking long range shots of various things here and there, so I am pretty sure a nikkor 18-200 vr will be my wife.

if image quality is your concern, then best not to marry a superzoom.

it may be my imagination, but i have not seen a superzoom picture that does not suffer from some form of optical flaw. and no, i am not an equipment whore either, it's just understandable that a lens requiring such strained optics would underperform most other normal lens.

 

[lsisaxon]

canon 400D ISO 1600 sample, 100% crop (no pp except the crop)

not to say that canon's noise control is bad - a d70 would have probably performed as badly or even worse. but if ur considering shooting at iso 1600 under low lighting conditions, this is what to expect - unusable images for most

i do shoot a lot of indoor events too, and usually i try to use an f/2.8 tele lens, iso1600. but often its not possible, cos the lighting changes a lot and sometimes can be quite dim. thats where an external flash is a must

abt leong23's post, i believe that the sb800 actually has a slower recycling time as compared to the sb600, due to its bigger GN

This is a 100% crop of D60 image shot at ISO1600 using the 18-200VR. Straight out of camera JPEG. (EXIF intact) Noise? What noise?

This is the entire frame.

 

[glenncain]

wow lots of variating opinions. but looks like there options now.

1.) so how well will a flash work even at the 10-20metre range?
2.) my friends 10x optical zoom prosumer non-dslr camera simply defeated my 18-55mm, and we both could get closer to the subject for a close up shot to achieve and full upper torso crop from where we were. I refuse to be in that situation, but so is there a 18-70 f2.8 glass? would 70 mm do that trick?
3.) half my brain is infected with upgraditis. lol.

 

[night86mare]

wow lots of variating opinions. but looks like there options now.

1.) so how well will a flash work even at the 10-20metre range?
2.) my friends 10x optical zoom prosumer non-dslr camera simply defeated my 18-55mm, and we both could get closer to the subject for a close up shot to achieve and full upper torso crop from where we were. I refuse to be in that situation, but so is there a 18-70 f2.8 glass? would 70 mm do that trick?
3.) half my brain is infected with upgraditis. lol.

2) assuming widest end is 35mm, your friend has a 35-350mm lens on his camera. taking crop factor into account you will still need more than a 200mm lens to get his longest range. best not to go that way. you can split it up, a megazoom is not going to be fast in any case.

3) purge it. read this.