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Thread: Pentax FF to come?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycamera View Post
    I thought people buy full frame mainly for the shallow depth of field, cheap wide angle lens, as that may be major things APSC cant give.

    but NEX full frame may be cheaper than the Pentax, Canon, or Nikon's full frame, as it targets more for consumers.

    by the way, NEX system also can use those range finder lens and those ancient under-used FD, MD manual lens without losing optical performance, provided that you are willing to give up the fast AF, A mode, and rest.

    but you get one full frame camera with freedom to use any good, cheap, modern, ancient, dusty lens. and you still have choice to use fast mordern AF lens with everything automatic and fast. (provided it is relative cheap, half price of what Canon or Nikon charges.)
    first and foremost, there is no "nex FF" so u are essentially speculating that something that doesn't exist will be cheaper than something else that also doesn't exist.

    secondly, i think the reason why we haven't seen FF implemented in a big way is really very obvious - the sensor costs too much. any camera implemented with FF will be anything but cheap.

    thirdly, a form factor like the nex negates a few key advantages of FF - buttons for quick manual control and OVF.

    lastly, a "nex type" design, if ever released by pentax, will mean 1 thing: new mount. bye bye k-mount... careful what u wish for...

  2. #22

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycamera View Post
    I thought people buy full frame mainly for the shallow depth of field, cheap wide angle lens, as that may be major things APSC cant give.

    but NEX full frame may be cheaper than the Pentax, Canon, or Nikon's full frame, as it targets more for consumers.

    by the way, NEX system also can use those range finder lens and those ancient under-used FD, MD manual lens without losing optical performance, provided that you are willing to give up the fast AF, A mode, and rest.

    but you get one full frame camera with freedom to use any good, cheap, modern, ancient, dusty lens. and you still have choice to use fast mordern AF lens with everything automatic and fast. (provided it is relative cheap, half price of what Canon or Nikon charges.)


    FF is mainly for less DOF (but it cuts both ways) and the larger viewfinder.

    The wide angle part is an old half truth, passed on till today as 'truth'. At the beginning of the switch to digital, there was only crop sensors, so the widest lenses on 35mm format became less wide. Later designed for crop sensor UWA were designed, eliminating this problem.
    The widest on crop is 12mm (ie. Sigma 8-16mm). The widest on 35mm format is also 12mm (eg. Nikkor 12-24).


    As Detrius points out. There is no upcoming FF NEX. There is a rumored FF SLT. Though I won't be surprised if FF NEX becomes a reality within the next 2 yrs.
    But then a FF sensor is not going to be cheap. The yield loss on a FF wafer will be significantly higher than crop. That has been the unchanged reality, though overall costs have come down over the years.
    A NEX is not really a cheaper camera if you look at it closely. Less buttons; No SR; no viewfinder. The D5100 uses the same sensor with a better interface and has a viewfinder (ie. more mechanicals) at about the same cost.
    So sensor price will be a large factor affecting cost of a camera.

    Of course NEX can use many lens types. That is its attraction, esp. to the RF users, whose lenses are manual anyway, are small to make use of a smaller body like the NEX and have a next better option in a $9000 Leica M9.
    BTW, many of the good RF lenses are well sought after and not cheap at all.

    In the end, say a FF NEX cost in the region of $2.5K-$3K. Is it worth it as a MF lens platform?
    Only each individual can answer that.
    If the individual has plenty of MF lenses, then it can be a viable option if he/she does not need AF speed at all.
    If the person has mostly AF lenses, then to me that is too high a cost.
    I'd wait for it to appear 2nd hand on BnS at $1.5k or lower.


    Also, Sony price strategy is there for everyone to see.
    Cheap ones are all so=so commercial lenses. The good ones in that category are the Minolta ones (rebadged as Sony).
    You want better lenses, you pay big money for the CZ ones.
    So no free cheap/good/AF from Sonny boy

  3. #23

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by pinholecam View Post

    Of course NEX can use many lens types. That is its attraction, esp. to the RF users, whose lenses are manual anyway, are small to make use of a smaller body like the NEX and have a next better option in a $9000 Leica M9.
    BTW, many of the good RF lenses are well sought after and not cheap at all.
    only if u're willing to put up with very serious compromises to image quality...


    Sony NEX-7 First Impressions - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...ressions.shtml
    "the sensor on these cameras is not designed with the micro-lenses needed to properly handle the extreme off axis rays from a lens of the Summilux's design."

    Last edited by detritus; 22nd October 2011 at 11:04 AM.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by detritus View Post
    only if u're willing to put up with very serious compromises to image quality...
    Yeah. Read that mention too, but don't really understand what it means.
    Seems like Ricoh m-mount module is the only one that takes care of it.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by pinholecam View Post
    Yeah. Read that mention too, but don't really understand what it means.
    Seems like Ricoh m-mount module is the only one that takes care of it.
    yes. that, and the leica RF

    anyway, we digress. the original post by Adam raised the possibility of a Pentax FF DSLR.

    so as much as there are other products that we'ld love to see, this is not what it is about.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by detritus View Post
    Sony NEX-7 First Impressions -
    "the sensor on these cameras is not designed with the micro-lenses needed to properly handle the extreme off axis rays from a lens of the Summilux's design."
    LUMINOUS LANDSCAPE UPDATE: "It looks like I may have muffed the Zeiss / Summilix lens comparison in my just published NEX-7 report. I will redo this test as soon as I can assemble all of the gear again, this time in a more controled environment."
    Panasonic TZ-110

  7. #27

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Fuji has shown us that you can put an APS-C sensor into a small body and put on a small lens that takes fantastic photographs. As APS-C sensors come down in price due to advances in manufacturing, there is no reason why X100 clones can't be made for S$400 i.e., be priced as P&S. In a few years, everyone may have P&S with APS-C sensors.

    By then, the APS-C sensor in our K5 is going to look a bit long in the tooth when even a P&S can produce similar IQ. The K1 and its sister GX3 in 2015 will probably have a 100MP full frame sensor than can focus in total darkness by seeing the body heat we emit. Our TV's will all be 70 inch OLEDs with 16000x9000 resolution so all the pictures we took with our K5 will be tiny rectangles on the big screen. We are all going to need new full frame lenses and even our Pentax Ltds won't be able to resolve the resolution of the new sensors. It will be a brave new world and I'm looking forward to it.
    Panasonic TZ-110

  8. #28

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsammyc View Post
    Fuji has shown us that you can put an APS-C sensor into a small body and put on a small lens that takes fantastic photographs. As APS-C sensors come down in price due to advances in manufacturing, there is no reason why X100 clones can't be made for S$400 i.e., be priced as P&S. In a few years, everyone may have P&S with APS-C sensors.

    By then, the APS-C sensor in our K5 is going to look a bit long in the tooth when even a P&S can produce similar IQ. The K1 and its sister GX3 in 2015 will probably have a 100MP full frame sensor than can focus in total darkness by seeing the body heat we emit. Our TV's will all be 70 inch OLEDs with 16000x9000 resolution so all the pictures we took with our K5 will be tiny rectangles on the big screen. We are all going to need new full frame lenses and even our Pentax Ltds won't be able to resolve the resolution of the new sensors. It will be a brave new world and I'm looking forward to it.
    Frankly, whether Pentax will enter into the Full Frame Market is unknown yet. Until we hear real news from them, here, it's all guessing. Of course, we are hoping that Pentax come out with a FF DSLR, entering the APS-C mirrorless market which Sony is coming up strongly with their NEX 5N and NEX 7. And also, APSC- Mirrorless has a different flange back distance, will that also means new mount for Pentax, means new investment in new lenses. And if Pentax wants to milk their current market, they must come up with an K mount Adapter same as Sony which AF to earn their current Pentax users market. But, wont the set up still look Big? Unless you wants all the Manual focus, then it will be worthwhile to think of 3rd party adapter without AF.

    For the Fuji X100, I don't find it small. NEX 5N and NEX 7 seem to be smaller in term of size. NEX 5N: 111 x 59 x 38 mm (4.37 x 2.32 x 1.5") NEX 7: 120 x 67 x 43 mm (4.72 x 2.64 x 1.69") Fuji X100: 126 x 75 x 54 mm (4.96 x 2.95 x 2.13") and Pentax K5: 131 x 97 x 73 mm (5.16 x 3.82 x 2.87") Not considering the lens attached to it. Fuji only got a fixed lens for now. Would it be the same still the same for different types of Lenses which make it look bigger?

    Technology always changes and improve, therefore, you will see prices will drop. That's how it's work in this market now. How long will you think the K5 and NEX 5N will last if there are new model coming up again? It's only the consumers will bare all the costs each time he/she changes the camera just to own the latest model.

    For the 100MP FF, I doubt i would own it man. Come on, how big will the file size big? With the K5 or NEX 5N 16MP, it's already a huge file and it's slowing down the processing of photos taken (JPG or RAW.) Unless they increase the buffer of the camera and the SD card become wonderfully fast. I can't imagine how long it will write on the memory. And would the the Noise level be as good as the Nikon D3X (24MP now). And you can also dispose the current FA lenses, if the Pentax Ltd lenses won't be able to resolve of the new sensors? What's makes you think that the Current Full Frames lens of all brands will be workable for 100MP? (I have zero idea on this point, Lens and more Megapixels.)

    Ok, end of my rattling, each to its owns. There are so many types of users in the market. It's hards to please all. Who wouldn't want a small, powerful, feature pack FF camera which do wonders and a technology which even blurs shots can be clear with its enhancement (Read it somewhere there is this new technology created). Enjoy what's there for now and let the company have their headache in creating wonders for us (Users).

  9. #29

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    In the late 1990s, I had a number of APS cameras and decided to invest in a Nikon Coolscan APS scanner. I think it cost me about $7,000 at the time. It was quite neat as you just popped a APS cartridge into a hole and let it rip. Attaching it to the fastest PC of the era, it took many many hours to scan a 40 image APS roll. Tending to overheat, I ran it in a aircon room with a fan blasting at it. To keep it from taking 24 hrs to scan a roll of film, I limited the resolution to about 800x600, which was perfect for the monitor resolution of the day. Little did I know that years later, it would look so puny on the 2560x1440 monitor like an Apple Thunderbolt display.
    Panasonic TZ-110

  10. #30

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    It will not be easy for Pentax to challenge the existing FF camera makers but here are the features that will really appeal to me (if they really end up making one)

    - Compact size
    - Good ergonomics with good button layout
    - In body SR
    - Quiet shutter

  11. #31

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsammyc View Post
    In the late 1990s, I had a number of APS cameras and decided to invest in a Nikon Coolscan APS scanner. I think it cost me about $7,000 at the time. It was quite neat as you just popped a APS cartridge into a hole and let it rip. Attaching it to the fastest PC of the era, it took many many hours to scan a 40 image APS roll. Tending to overheat, I ran it in a aircon room with a fan blasting at it. To keep it from taking 24 hrs to scan a roll of film, I limited the resolution to about 800x600, which was perfect for the monitor resolution of the day. Little did I know that years later, it would look so puny on the 2560x1440 monitor like an Apple Thunderbolt display.
    so have to spend $5 - $7k to upgrade our PC in order to process a 100 megapixel raw file?

  12. #32
    Member banana0ne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by detritus View Post
    so have to spend $5 - $7k to upgrade our PC in order to process a 100 megapixel raw file?
    Not to mention that you also need to upgrade your lenses to accomodate the high resolving sensor. Fact is, Nikon maxed out the sensor resolution to 12MP for quite sometime as they didn't feel that additional pixels would help. It's only just recently that they bumped up th eresolution to 16MP... what more with sony 24MP and samsungs 20MP sensors... no help if optics are also too expensive...
    I dunno!!!
    It's banana-zero-neh. :)

  13. #33

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    I think we have hit a point of diminishing returns in terms of megapixels.

    The final resolution of an image depends on many factors - the resolving power of the lens, the number of megapixels of the sensor, whether the shot is in focus, the amount of handshake/shutter shake etc, the amount of noise present as well as the effect of any NR reduction.

    And in most real life situations, even if you are using a top class lens, handshake and focus accuracy will prevent us from using the number of MP of our camera to its full potential.

    The current number of MP can be considered very sufficient for the needs of most amatuers. It may be different if you shoot for large prints, which I don't think is a common scenario.

    Even Canon seems to be acknowledging this, with the launch oftheir new flagship camera, the 1DX, which they are intending to sell for USD $6,800. It is "only" 18mp, a step down from the 21mp 1Ds3.

  14. #34

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    I am breaking my neck when I carry canon 5d2 with 24-70 lens . Just hope the FF will be lighter than the rest with good egro .
    Shoot More Learn More

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    if there is really a coming FF, some of us would be more than happy!

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    or just simply false hope, that the star will fall from the sky. in others words wait forever, because so and so so...

  17. #37

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by P3ntx View Post
    or just simply false hope, that the star will fall from the sky. in others words wait forever, because so and so so...
    Actually for me, its just a 'if it comes, I'd buy it. No big deal if it does not' kind of thing.
    I print every now and then at about A3 (sometimes between A2-A3) and need to inspect that the sharpness is correct on the files before sending for printing.
    The o/p from the K5 with good Pentax lenses is already very good indeed.

  18. #38
    Senior Member creampuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    I don't think too much.
    I just follow the crowd.
    I save money and buy the latest.
    That's how it's been since my K100D.
    No need to debate, just decide.
    FF confirm good.
    Want to get serious, pony up the money.
    Only $$$$$ mah...
    Want to think hard, hard for what?

  19. #39

    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
    I don't think too much.
    I just follow the crowd.
    I save money and buy the latest.
    That's how it's been since my K100D.
    No need to debate, just decide.
    FF confirm good.
    Want to get serious, pony up the money.
    Only $$$$$ mah...
    Want to think hard, hard for what?
    That's our rich boy talking

  20. #40
    Senior Member creampuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pentax FF to come?

    Quote Originally Posted by fengwei View Post
    That's our rich boy talking
    No lah, just following you... kekeke

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