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Thread: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

  1. #1

    Default One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    As corrected by this community's peer: The title should be read as "One's Greatness Should Not Undermine The Other"

    Started this thread so as to not OT the original. Since this is the kopitiam section, I will presume this is a good place to discuss anything under the sun.

    I reckon that regardless of status, it is a privilege and also entitlement to express one's view towards any subject as long as the concern is justified.

    I am feeling particularly sympathetic towards some attitudes towards the contributions made by others, and in the process undermine another just because of seniority and achievements. While one may built upon another in achievements, and even progress further due to pre-works done, both attempted their fair shares and contributed to the world. For example, who can claim that, one of the forefathers of science, Albert Einstein would have succeeded in the discovery of relativity and his acclaimed achievements in the science arena, should he have not stepped on works done by Issac Newton on the discovery of Gravity ? Should therefore Albert Einstein be less commendable compared to Issac Newton ? In recent times, I do see more of Albert Einstein been mentioned as oppose to Issac Newton just because most have taken for granted that Gravity is a norm, while Quantum theory been the latter theory is more welcoming and more interesting.

    Hence it is especially commendable that both are fore-fathers of new trends and new disciplines, are recognized for their contributions to the world. Plain deliberateness in taking oversight of either of their achievements ought to be taken as plain narrow mindedness of any individual in my opinion.

    I strongly urge those individuals to reflect upon their own contribution to the community before attempting to undermine another's work. Whomever's contribution, regardless of size and faculty, priority in time, are definitely worthy respect and time to investigate about.

    As much as what we can see is only one of many perspectives, it is strongly encourage that individuals to have mature thoughts and perspective. Learn to respect instead of blindly making irresponsible statements that may upset others whom look upon the undermined as a role model.

    It is especially so should the individual holds a role that must or preferred to uphold impartiality upon the community. His or her words have greater influences across the board, and therefore should be exercised with cautious.

    The world understand nothing is prefect. There are times mis-used of words or speeches are unavoidable. We recognize it and in the process of doing so, it is also a wise choice whom misconduct to either silently let it past or bravely admit it. Respect share be earned, and the forgetful world will forget. Futile attempt to dwell further will only aggravate the matter to a point of no return. The wise community shall make the judgement on whose words are more convincing, and not the status.

    Regards
    David Kwok
    Last edited by David Kwok; 15th October 2011 at 09:35 AM. Reason: Grammatical Correction, Title Correction, Expression Reinforcement
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    In your title: [greatness] not [greatest]

  3. #3

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    In your title: [greatness] not [greatest]
    Thanks for your correction. I totally welcome it
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  4. #4
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    I strongly urge those individuals to reflect upon their own contribution to the community before attempting to undermine another's work.
    Learn to respect instead of blindly making irresponsible statements that may upset others whom look upon the undermined as a role model.
    i hope you realise (seeing ur here since 2008) that many of the old hands, people who are good at what they do, have stopped commenting for a very long time.

    and only a few key people still bother to type their comments. (namely daredevil for one)
    why?

    because of the popularity and ease of entry of photography, that everyone believes they are a "sifu". self-proclaimed masters who think they are right.
    tell me, where do i draw the line between good comment vs irresponsible comment?

    i may find my comment/work is justified, self proclaimed sifu thinks otherwise. selfproclaimed sifu and his disciples drop by and decide that only what they say is right.

    in short, just move on. find a genre that u are suitable with, a social group that ur works can fit in. whats the point of say, forcing urself to join XXX singapore photography club, telling them to be mindful and consider all perspectives, when they collectively agree that whateva they say is correct? once ur in photography (or any arts related medium), you realise it is the same thing.

    this experience is not just within CS. look outside, and find the few photography clubs in singapore. interact with them once in a while. you will get the same results. its more important to be self-critical first, than relying on others (be it whether you are commenting or being critiqued)

    and, if i ever want opinion? i would just PM those i admire and feel are good at what they do.
    Last edited by allenleonhart; 15th October 2011 at 10:14 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Rest assured your opinions are well received. As much as when I wrote my initial statement, I hope that those read it can bear that in mind. I am constantly on the move because I have not dwell. I have a specific target in mind, just that I don't want to name names. I don't want to PM because I need people to see this and that is my intention. The fact that this is raised as a separate thread because it needs to be. I'm not been critical, I'm just trying to get my message across. Whether it's received in good will or trashed is up to the receiver and it's the receiver whom will benefit or not.

    No doubt this is in the photography forum, but it serve wider than just people doing photography for hobby or work. I hope you are not mistaken that this is photography related, because it clearly isn't.

    It it doesn't trouble you much, since you can identify I have joined since 2008. You would like to see which thread I have interacted with in this Kopitiam section on 14 Oct & 15 Oct. Then you will be enlighten on what this post is about

    Quote Originally Posted by allenleonhart View Post
    i hope you realise (seeing ur here since 2008) that many of the old hands, people who are good at what they do, have stopped commenting for a very long time.

    and only a few key people still bother to type their comments. (namely daredevil for one)
    why?

    because of the popularity and ease of entry of photography, that everyone believes they are a "sifu". self-proclaimed masters who think they are right.
    tell me, where do i draw the line between good comment vs irresponsible comment?

    i may find my comment/work is justified, self proclaimed sifu thinks otherwise. selfproclaimed sifu and his disciples drop by and decide that only what they say is right.

    in short, just move on. find a genre that u are suitable with, a social group that ur works can fit in. whats the point of say, forcing urself to join XXX singapore photography club, telling them to be mindful and consider all perspectives, when they collectively agree that whateva they say is correct? once ur in photography (or any arts related medium), you realise it is the same thing.

    this experience is not just within CS. look outside, and find the few photography clubs in singapore. interact with them once in a while. you will get the same results. its more important to be self-critical first, than relying on others (be it whether you are commenting or being critiqued)

    and, if i ever want opinion? i would just PM those i admire and feel are good at what they do.
    Last edited by David Kwok; 15th October 2011 at 10:48 AM.
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  6. #6
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kwok View Post
    Rest assured your opinions are well received. As much as when I wrote my initial statement, I hope that those read it can bear that in mind. I am constantly on the move because I have not dwell. I have a specific target in mind, just that I don't want to name names. I don't want to PM because I need people to see this and that is my intention. The fact that this is raised as a separate thread because it needs to be. I'm not been critical, I'm just trying to get my message across. Whether it's received in good will or trashed is up to the receiver and it's the receiver whom will benefit or not.

    No doubt this is in the photography forum, but it serve wider than just people doing photography for hobby or work. I hope you are not mistaken that this is photography related, because it clearly isn't.

    It it doesn't trouble you much, since you can identify I have joined since 2008. You would like to see which thread I have interacted with in this Kopitiam section on 14 Oct & 15 Oct. Then you will be enlighten on what this post is about
    if it was with regards to the C thread, i didnt see any problem with anyone's comments. ndroo was merely raising his opinion that steve was overrated, which i think was valid....

    i dun see any parallels between steve vs einstein. here is why.

    apple is a company. its not an individual. behind the whole project, steve wasnt the only one doing stuff... remember that there are many people (nameless as they may be) who contributed to the development of apple products, both form and function.

    on the other hand...

    einstein wrote his relativity, photoelectric effect, more or less alone. so did newton on his Philosophić Naturalis Principia Mathematica, calculus.

    if u ask me.............. yes indeed steve was overhyped. if u really think about it, he was more of an entrepreneur. a guy who took risks, at best. perhaps he is a good risk taker, perhaps not exactly world changing, and certainly not inventive.


    ps: dun also forget the fact apple did infringe on patents by creative for their ipod, (and subsequently modified) UI


    just as u might admire steve, others may not like him. i'm for one, not an apple fanboy. both views are equally valid, dun see a problem.

  7. #7

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    I have no qualms on the way you feel about Steve. You have your choice of words on how you want to look at something from your perspective. I totally agree with it. You may feel it's a hype, perhaps it is. History will tell the story of a Man. The way I look at it, I see a misconduct to undermine. Therefore it's also my view. I don't get personal with such things, because at the end of the day, I don't benefit from whether one feel towards or away.

    As for the example between Einstein and Newton, it is just an illustration of how the greatness of one person is built on another. There is no indication nor comparison that both are related in their efforts. My point being both are just as highly regard in my opinion.

    Apple is indeed a company. I agree it is not an individual. The way I look at Apple is nonetheless a channel, an organization for people to work and to express. I guess you have misunderstood that I was referring to what Apple has contributed. I don't and I am clear in my stand. Partially I admire Jobs for his spirit and his capabilities. I also admit when it comes to creative design, it's not mostly Jobs effort. He is more often a guidance and direction person.

    Like I say, you feel Jobs is overhype, that's your point and its taken as it is. It's well received and considered. But when you say it in your ways, it's a topic worth reading and investigating. I don't see Apple infringe patents not because Apple didn't. I don't care. As far as I can agree with patents have lost it's usefulness and very much a weapon more than a tool. In any case, it's OT to talk about patents and so forth because it is not relevant to the respect on Jobs that I'm discussing about.

    What I'm concern here is the attitude, not so much of the reason behind it. If it ain't presented in the right manner, then I ain't going to read it that way.
    As much as you have differ in perspective from mine, it's vice versa here and my stand dwells.

    Quote Originally Posted by allenleonhart View Post
    if it was with regards to the C thread, i didnt see any problem with anyone's comments. ndroo was merely raising his opinion that steve was overrated, which i think was valid....

    i dun see any parallels between steve vs einstein. here is why.

    apple is a company. its not an individual. behind the whole project, steve wasnt the only one doing stuff... remember that there are many people (nameless as they may be) who contributed to the development of apple products, both form and function.

    on the other hand...

    einstein wrote his relativity, photoelectric effect, more or less alone. so did newton on his Philosophić Naturalis Principia Mathematica, calculus.

    if u ask me.............. yes indeed steve was overhyped. if u really think about it, he was more of an entrepreneur. a guy who took risks, at best. perhaps he is a good risk taker, perhaps not exactly world changing, and certainly not inventive.


    ps: dun also forget the fact apple did infringe on patents by creative for their ipod, (and subsequently modified) UI


    just as u might admire steve, others may not like him. i'm for one, not an apple fanboy. both views are equally valid, dun see a problem.
    Last edited by David Kwok; 15th October 2011 at 11:36 AM.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    This thread will be a learning experience.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    "Let others' greatness shine more than your greatness so that your greatness can burn brightly beside others' greatness." - Laozi.

  10. #10

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Let our conscience lead us, though sometimes, it can be trying to follow it. I once read someone said this, “Conscience is like a freshly fallen sheet of snow. Every step that we walked on it is reflected there for others to see.” So, are the comments we make on others when we try to judge them, for those comments will be there for others to judge us too.

  11. #11

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    I had an unpleasant experience a few days ago when I posted something out of good intentions but I did it in an unconventional way. It was meant to be light-hearted but I made a mistake and partly at fault for not getting acquainted with the people here first before doing something like this. I apologized almost immediately but it seems that this was not good enough.

    Before I leave here, I would like to make some comments. If, I come across as arrogant or condescending, forgive me as my comments are of good intentions and straight from my heart.

    I have learned in my lifetime through my folly that no two persons or as a matter of fact, that everyone will agree on the same issue at the same time and they act differently.
    We are born with five senses, the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch and we learn throughout our life from the sensory messages from these.
    We are born with different abilities to learn and that is why we have people of different talents in the fields of arts and science. The tragic thing is, some people are born without the sense of sight and hearing but they will learn to overcome their difficulties with the keenest sense of touch. The most tragic thing is I feel is, when we have our five senses intact, we lose the human touch.
    We are moulded in our character by the different environments we are brought up in, some are favourable and some are not, for character building.
    We are born at different points in a time-line where different environments will shape us differently. That is what is commonly referred to as the generation gap.

    Let us not be blinded by pride, prejudice and anger. Try to accept those who think and behave differently or disagree with our views. If we cannot do this, as they are a vexation to our mind and spirit, we just choose to ignore them but do not belittle them, for they are what they are, for the reasons I have mentioned. . Let us live in the world as one and in harmony.


    For those who had been aggrieved by comments made by others on the works they had done, take comfort or consolation from what this humourist said, “ Artist can paint the sky red when it’s blue. We, who are not, paint it blue because if we don’t, others may think we are stupid.”
    Life should not always be serious. Take time to laugh at ourselves sometimes, but not at the expense of others.

  12. #12

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    No offense, but your posting seems irrelevant to this thread. Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by pkong1008 View Post
    I had an unpleasant experience a few days ago when I posted something out of good intentions but I did it in an unconventional way. It was meant to be light-hearted but I made a mistake and partly at fault for not getting acquainted with the people here first before doing something like this. I apologized almost immediately but it seems that this was not good enough.

    Before I leave here, I would like to make some comments. If, I come across as arrogant or condescending, forgive me as my comments are of good intentions and straight from my heart.

    I have learned in my lifetime through my folly that no two persons or as a matter of fact, that everyone will agree on the same issue at the same time and they act differently.
    We are born with five senses, the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch and we learn throughout our life from the sensory messages from these.
    We are born with different abilities to learn and that is why we have people of different talents in the fields of arts and science. The tragic thing is, some people are born without the sense of sight and hearing but they will learn to overcome their difficulties with the keenest sense of touch. The most tragic thing is I feel is, when we have our five senses intact, we lose the human touch.
    We are moulded in our character by the different environments we are brought up in, some are favourable and some are not, for character building.
    We are born at different points in a time-line where different environments will shape us differently. That is what is commonly referred to as the generation gap.

    Let us not be blinded by pride, prejudice and anger. Try to accept those who think and behave differently or disagree with our views. If we cannot do this, as they are a vexation to our mind and spirit, we just choose to ignore them but do not belittle them, for they are what they are, for the reasons I have mentioned. . Let us live in the world as one and in harmony.


    For those who had been aggrieved by comments made by others on the works they had done, take comfort or consolation from what this humourist said, “ Artist can paint the sky red when it’s blue. We, who are not, paint it blue because if we don’t, others may think we are stupid.”
    Life should not always be serious. Take time to laugh at ourselves sometimes, but not at the expense of others.
    Last edited by David Kwok; 16th October 2011 at 03:58 PM.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kwok View Post
    No offense, but your posting seems irrelevant to this thread. Thanks
    Hmm...from your first posting "I reckon that regardless of status, it is a privilege and also entitlement to express one's view towards any subject as long as the concern is justified."

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kwok View Post
    As corrected by this community's peer: The title should be read as "One's Greatness Should Not Undermine The Other"

    Started this thread so as to not OT the original. Since this is the kopitiam section, I will presume this is a good place to discuss anything under the sun.

    I reckon that regardless of status, it is a privilege and also entitlement to express one's view towards any subject as long as the concern is justified.

    I am feeling particularly sympathetic towards some attitudes towards the contributions made by others, and in the process undermine another just because of seniority and achievements. While one may built upon another in achievements, and even progress further due to pre-works done, both attempted their fair shares and contributed to the world. For example, who can claim that, one of the forefathers of science, Albert Einstein would have succeeded in the discovery of relativity and his acclaimed achievements in the science arena, should he have not stepped on works done by Issac Newton on the discovery of Gravity ? Should therefore Albert Einstein be less commendable compared to Issac Newton ? In recent times, I do see more of Albert Einstein been mentioned as oppose to Issac Newton just because most have taken for granted that Gravity is a norm, while Quantum theory been the latter theory is more welcoming and more interesting.

    Hence it is especially commendable that both are fore-fathers of new trends and new disciplines, are recognized for their contributions to the world. Plain deliberateness in taking oversight of either of their achievements ought to be taken as plain narrow mindedness of any individual in my opinion.

    I strongly urge those individuals to reflect upon their own contribution to the community before attempting to undermine another's work. Whomever's contribution, regardless of size and faculty, priority in time, are definitely worthy respect and time to investigate about.

    As much as what we can see is only one of many perspectives, it is strongly encourage that individuals to have mature thoughts and perspective. Learn to respect instead of blindly making irresponsible statements that may upset others whom look upon the undermined as a role model.

    It is especially so should the individual holds a role that must or preferred to uphold impartiality upon the community. His or her words have greater influences across the board, and therefore should be exercised with cautious.

    The world understand nothing is prefect. There are times mis-used of words or speeches are unavoidable. We recognize it and in the process of doing so, it is also a wise choice whom misconduct to either silently let it past or bravely admit it. Respect share be earned, and the forgetful world will forget. Futile attempt to dwell further will only aggravate the matter to a point of no return. The wise community shall make the judgement on whose words are more convincing, and not the status.

    Regards
    David Kwok
    Last edited by icceman; 16th October 2011 at 04:53 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by icceman View Post
    Hmm...from your first posting "I reckon that regardless of status, it is a privilege and also entitlement to express one's view towards any subject as long as the concern is justified."
    That doesn't imply that the posting shouldn't be preferred to be in the topic of this thread. If not, there wouldn't be a term called Out of Topic. Of course, I believe in what I have typed. What I meant is the poster if wanted a different topic could have started his own thread in the Kopitiam area. Doing so would have also satisfied "I reckon that regardless of status, it is a privilege and also entitlement to express one's view towards any subject as long as the concern is justified.".

    I have no intention to stop the poster from expressing what he/she has to express, except that if it's not in the same topic, it's better to be a dedicated thread, else I am glad to welcome that relevant expressions are expressed.
    This is also exactly the reason why I have started this thread for this discussion instead of doing it in the previous thread.
    Last edited by David Kwok; 16th October 2011 at 05:02 PM.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Undermining shows how great thou art. Don't undermine others that you don't like
    others to undermine you. Let's greatness be separated from undermining
    Last edited by henry soh; 16th October 2011 at 09:02 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kwok View Post
    That doesn't imply that the posting shouldn't be preferred to be in the topic of this thread. If not, there wouldn't be a term called Out of Topic. Of course, I believe in what I have typed. What I meant is the poster if wanted a different topic could have started his own thread in the Kopitiam area. Doing so would have also satisfied "I reckon that regardless of status, it is a privilege and also entitlement to express one's view towards any subject as long as the concern is justified.".

    I have no intention to stop the poster from expressing what he/she has to express, except that if it's not in the same topic, it's better to be a dedicated thread, else I am glad to welcome that relevant expressions are expressed.
    This is also exactly the reason why I have started this thread for this discussion instead of doing it in the previous thread.
    Hmm....IMHO, pkong1008's post was not Out of Topic. He/she is trying to give an example via a recent incident that had happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by pkong1008 View Post
    Let us not be blinded by pride, prejudice and anger. Try to accept those who think and behave differently or disagree with our views. If we cannot do this, as they are a vexation to our mind and spirit, we just choose to ignore them but do not belittle them, for they are what they are, for the reasons I have mentioned. . Let us live in the world as one and in harmony.
    The hard truth is that all the qualities we hate in others are things that we see in ourselves and don’t like...
    If both Steve & Dennis themselves were not fighting over the title of "who changed the world" (they can't because...they're...dead), why should we even bother?
    Cheers!

  17. #17

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by icceman View Post
    The hard truth is that all the qualities we hate in others are things that we see in ourselves and don’t like...
    If both Steve & Dennis themselves were not fighting over the title of "who changed the world" (they can't because...they're...dead), why should we even bother?
    Cheers!
    You can don't bother. It's your choice As much as I want others to appreciate, I start by learning how to appreciate. That's my choice and that's why I bother.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    i see some hypocrisy arising.

  19. #19

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Dont quite understand whats this thread all about, seems to me lots of mumbo jumbo, aspersions, insinnuations to something elsewhere ??? If its regarding passing of Apple's founder dont understand whats the fuss about, some love Apples, others just like oranges, like me To me Greatness reserved for one & one only, but many are admirable & highly respected.
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 17th October 2011 at 01:31 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: One's greatest should not undermine the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by s1221ljc View Post
    Dont quite understand whats this thread all about, seems to me lots of mumbo jumbo, aspersions, insinnuations to something elsewhere ??? If its regarding passing of Apple's founder dont understand whats the fuss about, some love Apples, others just like oranges, like me To me Greatness reserved for one & one only, but many are admirable & highly respected.
    it's about being humble~~ which i can sense it's a total hypocrisy

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