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Thread: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

  1. #1
    Senior Member engrmariano's Avatar
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    Default some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    hi, i dont know if it's the right place to post this, but here it goes...

    some one sent me an email & asked for how much im going to sell some of my photos taken during the last singapore gp.

    my concern is, the legality of selling photos taken during the race. is it legal or illegal?

    here's the terms & condition of sggp, please enlighten me...

  2. #2

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    it's illegal: 6.2 (a)

    the use of any such Recording, Data or Image ("Footage") or any part of it for profit, commercial
    gain, public advertisement, display or for any other purpose except for the private enjoyment of the
    person making / recording the Footage, without the prior written consent of FOWC is strictly
    forbidden and will constitute a breach of these Conditions for which the Ticket Holder may be
    liable; and

    So you should get the prior written consent of Formula One World Championship.
    Last edited by cannedpineapples; 29th September 2011 at 10:46 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Quote Originally Posted by engrmariano View Post
    hi, i dont know if it's the right place to post this, but here it goes...

    some one sent me an email & asked for how much im going to sell some of my photos taken during the last singapore gp.

    my concern is, the legality of selling photos taken during the race. is it legal or illegal?

    here's the terms & condition of sggp, please enlighten me...
    You're not allowed to sell the photos. :P
    Alpha

  4. #4

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    wah never know that.....

  5. #5

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    That's standard for all events actually... Otherwise no need for official event photographer liaoz.

  6. #6
    Senior Member engrmariano's Avatar
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    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    thanks for the clarifications. will just arrange another terms for the guy who wants to buy my shots...

  7. #7
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    my friend told me, even if u paid for the pass to watch F1, any photos you took during the race, F1 retains the copyright, so in anyways, you are screwed

  8. #8

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    I believe you can give it to him- but he will also not be able to use it commercially.

    Alternatively you can also contact Formula One (or Singapore GP) and ask them what their standard terms are. You'll probably have to give them a cut, but they might agree.

  9. #9
    Senior Member ricleo's Avatar
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    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    to me it depends on what commercial purposes in the T&C mean.

    You're probably not allowed to sell to a magazine or website who is going to publish or use the image commercially.

    I actually sold some images in the 2009 SG GP. I happened to take some pictures of one the volunteers driving a course car around the circuit, and he bought the set of pictures from me to have some memories of the GP experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by engrmariano View Post
    hi, i dont know if it's the right place to post this, but here it goes...

    some one sent me an email & asked for how much im going to sell some of my photos taken during the last singapore gp.

    my concern is, the legality of selling photos taken during the race. is it legal or illegal?

    here's the terms & condition of sggp, please enlighten me...
    A7R3|V12|V15|FE28|MS17|MS35|MS50|50lux|50C|50Artis an|FD85L|FE85|90 cron|
    Σ24|35L|Σ50|135L|70-200G2

  10. #10

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Quote Originally Posted by ricleo View Post
    to me it depends on what commercial purposes in the T&C mean.

    You're probably not allowed to sell to a magazine or website who is going to publish or use the image commercially.

    I actually sold some images in the 2009 SG GP. I happened to take some pictures of one the volunteers driving a course car around the circuit, and he bought the set of pictures from me to have some memories of the GP experience.
    My views differ, anyone can argue they interpret 'commercial purposes' differently but it is very very hard to argue out of accepted industry norms. Know that these clauses were probably written by a team of corporate lawyers, probably the best in the country, given the organizers' financial might and the viable profits (or loss) involved. Thus I would be wise not to even try interpreting it different.

    Simply put, commercial purposes is using the purpose of commerce, which means sales, trade, barter. If you read the TnC, it explicitly states "for profit, commercial gain, public advertisement, display or for any other purpose except for the private enjoyment of the person making / recording the Footage,"

    They pursue legally, you are liable. Plain and simple. First for the breach of contract (ticketing part), second is possible sue for damages.

    The situation might be different if you are hired in advance by some big shot or important personality to take personal pictures of him at the event, like a personal photographer, whereby this case you aren't selling photographs but merely selling a service. In this case you become sometime like a 'semi-official photographer' but maybe with limited access. The photographs would either belong to the hirer, or to SGPPL depending upon prior agreement between SGPPL and the person who hire you. You usually have no say in this. But as mentioned, it should be hired in advance, not selling of photos after you taken them in the capacity of an ordinary ticket holder.

    As an ordinary ticket holder taking photos, your photos can only be used for personal enjoyment. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by sjackal; 29th September 2011 at 06:29 PM.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Yup, most corporate boxes had one. But sgp earns from the ticket sold anyway (the photographers I saw had the same corporate box pass, not a media pass) so they dont mind- also probably negotiated when they buy the corporate box.

  12. #12
    Moderator chngpe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    My views differ, anyone can argue they interpret 'commercial purposes' differently but it is very very hard to argue out of accepted industry norms. Know that these clauses were probably written by a team of corporate lawyers, probably the best in the country, given the organizers' financial might and the viable profits (or loss) involved. Thus I would be wise not to even try interpreting it different.

    Simply put, commercial purposes is using the purpose of commerce, which means sales, trade, barter. If you read the TnC, it explicitly states "for profit, commercial gain, public advertisement, display or for any other purpose except for the private enjoyment of the person making / recording the Footage,"

    They pursue legally, you are liable. Plain and simple. First for the breach of contract (ticketing part), second is possible sue for damages.

    The situation might be different if you are hired in advance by some big shot or important personality to take personal pictures of him at the event, like a personal photographer, whereby this case you aren't selling photographs but merely selling a service. In this case you become sometime like a 'semi-official photographer' but maybe with limited access. The photographs would either belong to the hirer, or to SGPPL depending upon prior agreement between SGPPL and the person who hire you. You usually have no say in this. But as mentioned, it should be hired in advance, not selling of photos after you taken them in the capacity of an ordinary ticket holder.

    As an ordinary ticket holder taking photos, your photos can only be used for personal enjoyment. Hope this helps.

    Even if you are hire to shoot by a "hirer" (not F1) to shoot the race even as a backdrop it is still not allowed.

    A couple of years back (1st F1 race) Singapore Sports Council(SSC) hired me to shoot a marketing collateral for their Floating Platform. One of the shoot was to have images of the F1 race going thru the platform. SSC has to cancel the shoot. Cos F1 did not allow SSC to have take the photos, the copyright of the race images belong to F1 even though SSC hired me to shoot at their property. That is how strict the F1 copyright issue is.

  13. #13

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    actually now that u put it that way, makes a lot of sense. They don't want to be swamped by professional photographers trying to get the perfect shot for their brochure and getting in the way of spectators..

  14. #14
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Quote Originally Posted by cannedpineapples View Post
    actually now that u put it that way, makes a lot of sense. They don't want to be swamped by professional photographers trying to get the perfect shot for their brochure and getting in the way of spectators..
    I think that is not the main reason.

    Money is the main reason. Anything and everything with the F1 logo on it, you have to pay... and the amount is not small too.

  15. #15

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    I think that is not the main reason.

    Money is the main reason. Anything and everything with the F1 logo on it, you have to pay... and the amount is not small too.
    Of course, I understand. But every event is like that- not just F1. But I meant that from a user experience perspective, there are legitimate reasons too.

  16. #16

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    The situation might be different if you are hired in advance by some big shot or important personality to take personal pictures of him at the event, like a personal photographer, whereby this case you aren't selling photographs but merely selling a service. In this case you become sometime like a 'semi-official photographer' but maybe with limited access. The photographs would either belong to the hirer, or to SGPPL depending upon prior agreement between SGPPL and the person who hire you. You usually have no say in this. But as mentioned, it should be hired in advance, not selling of photos after you taken them in the capacity of an ordinary ticket holder.

    As an ordinary ticket holder taking photos, your photos can only be used for personal enjoyment. Hope this helps.
    Nope there is no difference if you shoot as a XXXy company's photographer in their hospitality room. Any shoots with clear event owners logo and activities can not be sold for commercial usage. In order to use the event as a backdrop some intelligent and creative frame is needed, plus fact that XXXy will only be using them at most in their newsletter but never in newspaper ad or a shop ad, makes it possible for a range of usage. Been there, shot that. The good part with this one is be prepared to let the rights go - these pictures are never going to commercial valuable plus it saves your but if XXXy does get stupid and use them. The event owners lawyers will be be talk to XXXy and not you.

    TS if the dude wants these for personal usage sell it to him, make him sign a contract clearly stating that for XXX he is getting the rights to use files for personal usage, but no rights for commercial purposes or for resale to other parties are granted; prior written approval and additional compensation to be negotiated must be settled before client can do so legally. If images are used outside the rights transferred, you reserve the right to legal action for compensation of illegal usage, damages for illegal usage of logo or copyrights that belong to third parties along with legal fees because of logo owner enforcement of their rights and liable to be a direct party to said logo owners enforcement actions.

    Shoot an major event for fun maybe, shoot for commercial images without being hired by event owner - forget about it not worth having to deal suddenly face to face with a bouncer when he come to stop you from shooting - kinda cute then you can try your smarts against his biceps - done that in the past.

  17. #17

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Hi Ellery, we meant the same thing in your first paragraph, just worded differently.Second para onwards my views differs, if the TS shot the pics as an ordinary ticket holder, and later sold those images for that clients personal usage, it still consitute as commerce, and for profit/gain. If TS sold the images privately among himself and his client, SGPPL is not going to know, but having a written sales contract is just providing possible evidence against himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    Nope there is no difference if you shoot as a XXXy company's photographer in their hospitality room. Any shoots with clear event owners logo and activities can not be sold for commercial usage. In order to use the event as a backdrop some intelligent and creative frame is needed, plus fact that XXXy will only be using them at most in their newsletter but never in newspaper ad or a shop ad, makes it possible for a range of usage. Been there, shot that. The good part with this one is be prepared to let the rights go - these pictures are never going to commercial valuable plus it saves your but if XXXy does get stupid and use them. The event owners lawyers will be be talk to XXXy and not you.TS if the dude wants these for personal usage sell it to him, make him sign a contract clearly stating that for XXX he is getting the rights to use files for personal usage, but no rights for commercial purposes or for resale to other parties are granted; prior written approval and additional compensation to be negotiated must be settled before client can do so legally. If images are used outside the rights transferred, you reserve the right to legal action for compensation of illegal usage, damages for illegal usage of logo or copyrights that belong to third parties along with legal fees because of logo owner enforcement of their rights and liable to be a direct party to said logo owners enforcement actions.Shoot an major event for fun maybe, shoot for commercial images without being hired by event owner - forget about it not worth having to deal suddenly face to face with a bouncer when he come to stop you from shooting - kinda cute then you can try your smarts against his biceps - done that in the past.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Sjackal it's a toss. On one hand if buyer is true to word and these are for his own memories fine. However should he go and use the picture commercially -then that contract would save TS's bacon. Normally F1 would most probably not care too much about pictures some one buys for their own album, it is when there is a commercial slant ie pictures are sold to a magazine, used in an ad that they will sit up and take action. Think of it this way - sue some poor bugger, spend X on legal fees (besides having to prove the quantum of loss) to enforce judgement on some poor stiff. One sues to make a positive gain not to make a loss. There is that legal concept of damages suffered that make this sort of safe for TS his transaction for personal pictures is not going to in the thousands. Having a judgement that cannot be enforced 'cos the loser cannot pay is what they call this ? A moral victory.

  19. #19

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    Sjackal it's a toss. On one hand if buyer is true to word and these are for his own memories fine. However should he go and use the picture commercially -then that contract would save TS's bacon. Normally F1 would most probably not care too much about pictures some one buys for their own album, it is when there is a commercial slant ie pictures are sold to a magazine, used in an ad that they will sit up and take action. Think of it this way - sue some poor bugger, spend X on legal fees (besides having to prove the quantum of loss) to enforce judgement on some poor stiff. One sues to make a positive gain not to make a loss. There is that legal concept of damages suffered that make this sort of safe for TS his transaction for personal pictures is not going to in the thousands. Having a judgement that cannot be enforced 'cos the loser cannot pay is what they call this ? A moral victory.
    No, the moment the TS charges for the pictures, regardless of whether the buyer uses them for his personal collection or a commercial purpose, it's a commercial transaction and illegal. If the buyer also uses it for commercial purposes, BOTH the TS and the buyer are criminally liable.
    Alpha

  20. #20

    Default Re: some one wants to buy my shots taken last singapore gp

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    No, the moment the TS charges for the pictures, regardless of whether the buyer uses them for his personal collection or a commercial purpose, it's a commercial transaction and illegal. If the buyer also uses it for commercial purposes, BOTH the TS and the buyer are criminally liable.
    Indeed, Rashkae reinforced the point.

    Think of it this way; John makes a copy of Microsoft Office disk and sell it to Jane for personal use, John commits an offence under the copyright law regardless if Jane use it for personal learning or for professional work. John is also liable to damages if Microsoft sues John for compensation.

    Copyright damages in Singapore is compensatory in nature, as compared to the US which is punitive in nature (large sums of money). So indeed, F1/SGPPL may not sue small fry photographers for such things because there probably isn't a lot of gain for them, agreed.

    But it is relatively easy for them to file a complaint report with IPO and let the government settle it for them because an offence under the copyright act had been committed, the fine is usually a whooping 5 figure sum. If the government sees a case for them to win and the complaint is legit and valid enough to pursue, and the complaining party is important enough to entertain, ie an big brand name, what do we think will happen?
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