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Thread: How is it wrong to insist on quantity of output?

  1. #1

    Default How is it wrong to insist on quantity of output?

    Hi all,

    I did a TFCD shoot with a MUA (who organised the shoot) and a model (provided by the MUA), and the purpose of this shoot was for portfolio purposes and i was seeking for future collaborations.

    However, after the shoot, after being told that i will only give an output of 5-10 processed pictures (depending on output) for the TFCD shoot. (have listed this under my facebook page)
    she then asked for all the photographs taken on that day, but didnt agree to that.

    after discussing, i agreed to let both her (MUA) and the model to choose 5 pictures each.

    and now outta nowhere, she's sent an email expressing they will not agree to release the photos for my portfolio usage and request that i 'return' all photos taken to the MUA and the model,
    also saying she will proceed to pursue this case with the authority CC: Case and Solicitor, if i dont get back to her within a certain time frame.

    have i done any wrong on my part?
    Last edited by Dream Merchant; 22nd September 2011 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Typo causing confusion

  2. #2

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiatlard View Post
    Hi all,

    I did a TFCD shoot with a MUA (who organised the shoot) and a model (provided by the MUA), and the purpose of this shoot was for portfolio purposes and i was seeking for future collaborations.

    However, after the shoot, after being told that i will only give an output of 5-10 processed pictures (depending on output) for the TFCD shoot. (have listed this under my facebook page)
    she then asked for all the photographs taken on that day, but didnt agree to that.

    after discussing, i agreed to let both her (MUA) and the model to choose 5 pictures each.

    and now outta nowhere, she's sent an email expressing they will not agree to release the photos for my portfolio usage and request that i 'return' all photos taken to the MUA and the model,
    also saying she will proceed to pursue this case with the authority CC: Case and Solicitor, if i dont get back to her within a certain time frame.

    have i done any wrong on my part?
    not having it in black & white before the whole shindig went down.

    anyway i don't think she has a case also.

  3. #3
    Moderator ed9119's Avatar
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    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    anything in writing about the TFCD?

    model release ?

    was the 5-10 images thingy agreed to before the TFCD ?

    many years ago I used to give them all the jpegs ...... 'T' in TFCD stands for TRADE ......

    u have the pics ...... they should have theirs too.....

    AND and you should not use more than the agreed 5-10 images too imho to be fair... no ?
    shaddap and just shoot .... up close
    Walkeast

  4. #4

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    You need to give us a bit more info and be a bit clearer.

    "I did a TFCD shoot with a MUA (who organised the shoot) and a model (provided by the MUA), and the purpose of this shoot was for portfolio purposes and i was seeking for future collaborations."

    Where was this organized? Where was it specifically listed that this is a TFCD?

    "However, after the shoot, after being told that i will only give an output of 5-10 processed pictures (depending on output) for the TFCD shoot. (have listed this under my facebook page)"

    After being told by whom? When did you (or someone else) list this on your facebook page?


    As for them, they are just trying to "act big" and throw CASE and Solicitor into their threats to make you scared. CASE cannot do anything as this has nothing to do with consumer rights (they won't even accept the case), and a Solicitor? Let them hire one! They will have no case at all and will need to spend lots of $$$ on the legal fees.

    It's a big bluff. Don't give in, stand your ground.
    Alpha

  5. #5

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quote Originally Posted by ed9119 View Post
    anything in writing about the TFCD?

    model release ?

    was the 5-10 images thingy agreed to before the TFCD ?

    many years ago I used to give them all the jpegs ...... 'T' in TFCD stands for TRADE ......

    u have the pics ...... they should have theirs too.....

    AND and you should not use more than the agreed 5-10 images too imho to be fair... no ?
    no writing.
    no model release.
    it wasnt. but i listed it as a FAQ on my facebook page.

    i understand that re-emphasizing the details before the shoot might have been a better option (as mentioned by the MUA)
    but after hearing (from herself) that she didnt even visit the facebook page, my port. i think that says something also.

    yes, it is only fair that they get a copy of what i use in my port. so if its 5-10 pictures for them, means its 5-10 pictures for me too.

    sorry but i didnt understand the part abt them having their pictures too.

  6. #6

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    You need to give us a bit more info and be a bit clearer.

    "I did a TFCD shoot with a MUA (who organised the shoot) and a model (provided by the MUA), and the purpose of this shoot was for portfolio purposes and i was seeking for future collaborations."

    Where was this organized? Where was it specifically listed that this is a TFCD?

    "However, after the shoot, after being told that i will only give an output of 5-10 processed pictures (depending on output) for the TFCD shoot. (have listed this under my facebook page)"

    After being told by whom? When did you (or someone else) list this on your facebook page?


    As for them, they are just trying to "act big" and throw CASE and Solicitor into their threats to make you scared. CASE cannot do anything as this has nothing to do with consumer rights (they won't even accept the case), and a Solicitor? Let them hire one! They will have no case at all and will need to spend lots of $$$ on the legal fees.

    It's a big bluff. Don't give in, stand your ground.
    I listed a casting call on modelmayhem, calling out for collaborations with MUA and models.
    and she replied to that with an email saying she had a model and a theme, so she needed a photographer to carry the TFCD shoot out and asked if im interested.

    We were on a phone conversation and she asked me about the pictures the day after the shoot. i told her that i will only pick the best 5-10 and process them.
    i listed it on my facebook page, on 15 june 2011, under 'FAQ for TFCDs' under 'Notes'.

    Thanks for the advice on the CASE and Solicitor thing.

  7. #7

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiatlard View Post
    I listed a casting call on modelmayhem, calling out for collaborations with MUA and models.
    and she replied to that with an email saying she had a model and a theme, so she needed a photographer to carry the TFCD shoot out and asked if im interested.

    We were on a phone conversation and she asked me about the pictures the day after the shoot. i told her that i will only pick the best 5-10 and process them.
    i listed it on my facebook page, on 15 june 2011, under 'FAQ for TFCDs' under 'Notes'.
    Ah, ok. In general, when you do a TFCD, you should be clear from the start what the deliverable is. Normally, in a TFCD (Time for CD), most people will give all the pictures to the model, and also have full use of the pictures for themselves for their own portfolio (and to process on your own). If there is a different expectation (only 5/10/20 best pics before/after processing) you should stipulate that. It's not uncommon to have a TFCD with those terms, but putting it on your facebook when the casting call was on modelmayhem is sloppy.

    My suggestion: Talk to the MUA. Since you agreed on the fact it's a TFCD, give her a CD with the pictures (unprocessed!), and you do your own processing and use the processed ones for yourself. Make sure she signs an agreement to the terms BEFORE you hand her the CD.
    Alpha

  8. #8
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Why not just give her all the photos unprocessed. If in RAW, just convert to jpg with no PP. Are the pics worth so much you can't give to them?
    Last edited by daredevil123; 22nd September 2011 at 01:47 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Since there is no black and white, then obviously it's just your statement against theirs, it's really hard to justified from our perspective. It's all law talk from then onwards. Whose lawyer is more superior and get pin point on the relevant points to justify yours or their stand will have higher odds. Which is why next time you will want to state your objectives and deliverables up front. As for your black and white written in the Facebook, personally I'm not too sure since there is no enforcement to read them and neither are they in the form of Terms and Conditions or Agreement that they need to adhere to. Like some of the other response to your post, CASE will most likely can't do anything except mediation if necessary since it's strictly there is no cost involved and this is more like a partnership instead of seller consumer situation.

    Then again, if you are ready for a court case, I say you can go ahead. But you must understand what you are into. I recommend should this case escalate further, you can seek professional consultancy on what are your case against theirs. Unless anyone here is a lawyer and willing to give free consultancy, you should pursue the legal route for info.

    In future cases, I suggest a Model Release Form to be signed first. This is assurance for both parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiatlard View Post
    Hi all,

    I did a TFCD shoot with a MUA (who organised the shoot) and a model (provided by the MUA), and the purpose of this shoot was for portfolio purposes and i was seeking for future collaborations.

    However, after the shoot, after being told that i will only give an output of 5-10 processed pictures (depending on output) for the TFCD shoot. (have listed this under my facebook page)
    she then asked for all the photographs taken on that day, but didnt agree to that.

    after discussing, i agreed to let both her (MUA) and the model to choose 5 pictures each.

    and now outta nowhere, she's sent an email expressing they will not agree to release the photos for my portfolio usage and request that i 'return' all photos taken to the MUA and the model,
    also saying she will proceed to pursue this case with the authority CC: Case and Solicitor, if i dont get back to her within a certain time frame.

    have i done any wrong on my part?
    D3S|N70-200|N24-70|N24-85|N50f1.4|N35f2|SB800|SB900|Yashica GS|S95
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  10. #10

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Agree with Rashkae and daredevil's suggestions.

    Any stipulation such as your 5-10 image limit should be made in the body of your communications i.e. in your email comms and your MM casting call. I include the main T&Cs (copyright, usage rights etc) in my quotations and invoices to avoid misunderstandings.

    BTW I don't get your thread title -- how does quality of output relate to the issue?

  11. #11

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Francis View Post
    BTW I don't get your thread title -- how does quality of output relate to the issue?
    I think he was insisting on delivering 5-10 "high quality" pics instead of a CD full of unprocessed pics.
    Alpha

  12. #12

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    pls let us know who is the makeup artist. i will avoid her like the plague.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Anson's Avatar
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    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quote Originally Posted by flipfreak View Post
    pls let us know who is the makeup artist. i will avoid her like the plague.
    I am interested to know too. Curious if the MUA ask for TFCD, would he/she go to the expense in hiring a Solicitor?

  14. #14

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anson View Post
    I am interested to know too. Curious if the MUA ask for TFCD, would he/she go to the expense in hiring a Solicitor?
    Of course not. Just another "ya ya papaya" who tries to intimidate people with impotent threats.
    Alpha

  15. #15
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quote Originally Posted by flipfreak View Post
    pls let us know who is the makeup artist. i will avoid her like the plague.
    curious too.

  16. #16
    Moderator ed9119's Avatar
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    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    what CASE are these people talking about ? no cash is changing hands here ......
    Last edited by ed9119; 22nd September 2011 at 05:39 PM.
    shaddap and just shoot .... up close
    Walkeast

  17. #17
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default

    This makeup artist is so creative, can bring disput of TFCD to CASE. Lol
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  18. #18
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiatlard View Post
    also saying she will proceed to pursue this case with the authority CC: Case and Solicitor, if i dont get back to her within a certain time frame.

    have i done any wrong on my part?
    Can you please ask her who is the authority on this, I am interested to know too.

    Many thanks.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    Quantity, not Quality in thread title.

    Nothing in writing before-hand?
    What about verbal promises made by you? They count too.
    If you are sure that you did no wrong, then you are sure you will win. Let the other party decide to go to court. The losing party pays the legal costs.

  20. #20

    Default Re: How is it wrong to insist on quality of output?

    I changed the title of your thread to avoid future confusion chistlard.

    All these problems are unnecessary if you had laid out terms and come to an agreement before the shoot. If you trust them, verbal should be fine. If in doubt, written word.

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