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Thread: u pay for the model or the model pay for u????

  1. #41
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    sequitur> thanks 4 the discussion, i was quite bored @ work so this livens up my day...

    reannemia> yr post's good fodder 4 discussion....


  2. #42
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    come on guys, reannemia have already cleared her point. I belive what she meant is that photographers should be paid for their professionalism, what they can do for the models, cost of over heads etc.... , but not all photographers can command a prize for their MODEL SHOOT. Some professional photographers are good in product shots, industry factory shots, buildings, etc. For there photographers they need to pratice shooting models till people think they are good enough to pay them to do a model/fashion shoot for them. Until than, they need to pay models to pose for them. The photographer should pay the models for their professionalism and the make up artisn for her skills. Belive it or not, even fashion photographers need to keep brushing up their skills. That is why some pro. photopgraphers are willing to do tfp/tfcd.
    In short: If OTHER PEOPLE think you're good enough, they will pay you or model for you for free/tfp/tfcd. If YOU think you're still not there yet/need more pratice/want to shoot for fun/want to meet more photographers during a shoot, than you need to pay and people like reannemia and austin ( just to name a few) can provide you with a professional model and make up artisn who know what they're doing and maybe exchange pointers with you.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by yqt
    That is why some pro. photopgraphers are willing to do tfp/tfcd.
    In short: If OTHER PEOPLE think you're good enough, they will pay you or model for you for free/tfp/tfcd.
    Hey yqt,

    Well said man,

  4. #44

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    Ok after reading the whole thread.....

    Have you guys wonder how you define a professional model? Must they have a certain criteria? It's worth paying them if they trully are......but what if they are not?

    To the photographers this is some of the criteria in choosing a professional
    1) Posing in front of cameras is not easy. Models must be flexible and able to
    pose what the professional photographers expect from them. It's not
    about moving and turning around here and there in front of the camera
    that you are a professional model.
    2) Able to pose and feel comfortable is just one area as a professional model
    criteria.
    3) Another area is have a nice clean face without too much eye baggs.
    4) Prefer to have no tummy most of the time.
    5) Do not need a 34D bustline and 24 waistline to be a model as this depends
    on your body structure.
    6) Bad attitude is definately a no no in a model's character. Stubborn and
    refusal to do some poses requested by photographers.(Not lewd poses)
    7) To be always at least min 30 minutes earlier prior to the make-up.
    8) Know their sense of style and fashion industry.
    9) Hair colour not too "ah lian". Dying of hair is ok but if the client need a
    model to have a nice clean black/brown hair, she/he should be
    professional enough to go back to a hair salon to dye back their original
    hair colour.
    10)Professional Models Comcards should be updated every 3-6 months, with
    all the necessary photos such as profile, full length, half body with their
    actual stastitics written on it.
    11)Professional Models Folio should consist printed/publish work, some
    personnel works. Either have a laptop, CD or a portfolio back with them for
    presentations to clients such as photographers, event organizers and so
    on.
    12)During a shoot a model should have some basic make-up kits for
    retouching up if the make-up artist is not there.
    13)They should have bring the necessary undergarment for different outfits.
    14)Their time should be flexible to go for outfit fitting as this is their rice
    bowl.

    Well this are just some of the basic criteria as a professional model. There is actually more but this are the significant ones. Sorry if I mumble too much but if the models you hired has at least 6-7 out of the 14 I listed, then they are worth paying.

    Now to the models in choosing to pay a professional photographers. This are just some of the criteria to look our for.
    1) At least a decent studio with some available studio strobes/flashes.
    2) Have various backdrops colours.
    3) A strong porfolio with commission/printed jobs.
    4) Outdoor and indoor works.
    5) Again portfolio is updated every 3-6 months.
    6) Portfolio should have some various works on models with different lighting
    techiniques.
    7) What you should be looking at their portfolio is the mood and feel should
    be there.
    8) To show you how to fine tune your poses.
    9) To created new innovative ideas for the models.
    10)Communication with the model is necessary.
    11)Have shot at least a few professional models.
    12)A pre discussion with model is necessary prior to the shoot.
    13)Should have a higher expections on themselves as well.
    14)Done some research on what photos the photographer will be executing
    for the model.

    And the list goes on......

    To summarize........
    Not to look down on newbies and amatuers models but I think if you really want to start a career whether full time or part time, I think you should pay the professional photographers as your portfolio.

    You can start off with TFP/TFCD from newbies/amatuers photographer for a trial run. Good for both parties who is still practising. Who knows, maybe both will turn out great.

    At the end of the day you will still need one or a few professional photographer to make you look good. Vice versa!

    As the saying goes..."If I look bad, you look bad"

    I am just sharing some ideas and pointers that maybe useful to some members over here for both models and photographers before they engaged each other.

    Thank you.

  5. #45
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Right on Godzilla!

    And would like to add: photographers must show respects to your subjects, if you donít, your works would tell.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights
    Right on Godzilla!

    And would like to add: photographers must show respects to your subjects, if you don’t, your works would tell.
    Works both ways. Professional Models must respect them as well or they will get blacklisted in the market.

  7. #47
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    Thanks catchlights. Hope this have help reannemia/mia clear the air

  8. #48

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    I really don't think I should come in with my 2 cents worth, especially since i'm definitely on Mia's side here. But what the heck - since we have a model's point of view, might as well have the agent's point of view as well.

    When a model approaches me for representation, I normally look at their modelling potential as well. For really fresh models, I normally ask them to pay for their own comp cards and portfolios. But even if they're really fresh models yet have bagloads of potential, I have absolutely no problems with offering them everything for free. The same thing applies for photographers. Over time, i've met up with several photographers whom I've grown to like very much indeed and worked closely with on several projects, even to the point whereby if there's an event I'm supplying girls for, I'll suggest to the event organizer that we use this particular photog as well. (Thank you clubsnap, for putting me in touch with these several photogs.)

    I heartily agree with Mia when she says that photographers should be paid, as do models. However, in the event of paid shoots, its more a case of photographers sharing the cost of the model to improve their techniques, to learn off each other as well as to get the necessary contacts required. You see, there are several photogs here who don't aspire to be professionals - instead, they're happy being weekend photogs who get together to shoot for the pure pleasure of it. These are those who would willingly pay to shoot the model. I look upon this as an investment - after several such shoots, you would actually have a portfolio that will open the doors to paying jobs where you'll get your investment back manyfold.

    Oh and godzilla, you're absolutely right on the qualities that a professional model should possess, although there are so many others that i could easily add.

  9. #49

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    i'm greatly humbled godzilla. thanks for the list of qualities to look out for, both models and fotogs alike.

    tygrr:
    www.miatan.com
    blog.miatan.com

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by tygrr_eyez
    I really don't think I should come in with my 2 cents worth, especially since i'm definitely on Mia's side here. But what the heck - since we have a model's point of view, might as well have the agent's point of view as well.

    When a model approaches me for representation, I normally look at their modelling potential as well. For really fresh models, I normally ask them to pay for their own comp cards and portfolios. But even if they're really fresh models yet have bagloads of potential, I have absolutely no problems with offering them everything for free. The same thing applies for photographers. Over time, i've met up with several photographers whom I've grown to like very much indeed and worked closely with on several projects, even to the point whereby if there's an event I'm supplying girls for, I'll suggest to the event organizer that we use this particular photog as well. (Thank you clubsnap, for putting me in touch with these several photogs.)

    I heartily agree with Mia when she says that photographers should be paid, as do models. However, in the event of paid shoots, its more a case of photographers sharing the cost of the model to improve their techniques, to learn off each other as well as to get the necessary contacts required. You see, there are several photogs here who don't aspire to be professionals - instead, they're happy being weekend photogs who get together to shoot for the pure pleasure of it. These are those who would willingly pay to shoot the model. I look upon this as an investment - after several such shoots, you would actually have a portfolio that will open the doors to paying jobs where you'll get your investment back manyfold.

    Oh and godzilla, you're absolutely right on the qualities that a professional model should possess, although there are so many others that i could easily add.
    You should add more to the list for the photographers CS are looking for since you represent them as an agent.

    There are plenty of photographers are just weekend shooters, shooting for the sake of pleasure. Which in turn good for you and the model's pocket money. But you will find weekend photographers will have a little difficulty churning out some shots for the models portfolio. I would say it's good for practise sake but not portfolio standard.

    Sorry but no offense for those who tried their best. As you mentioned they do not aspire to be a professional, so their work will not be just normal. Modelling and Photography is practical work involve. So it's all about more practise to make it perfect for both the photographers and models.

    Professional Models and Photographers are paid to do this almost every week and sometimes everyday. So you get the best of the best to present your best portfolio in town. Show them weekend shooters work, you get shot down by advertising agencies, modelling agency, photographers and clients. Trust me, I have tried it myself. It was like a AK-47 affair in Vietnam!

    Over here we are just pointing out to some photographers who takes advantages on some models or vice versa for free. That's why the original poster question herself and some members, should "we photographers pay the models or the models pay us?"

    It works both ways. Nothing is free in this world and if it's free there is always a catch to it.

    Thanks

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by reannemia
    i'm greatly humbled godzilla. thanks for the list of qualities to look out for, both models and fotogs alike.

    tygrr:
    You are welcome....good that we think alike. All things have to be laid down for the photographers and the models. So we do not get any misunderstanding.

  12. #52

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    It works both ways. Nothing is free in this world and if it's free there is always a catch to it.

    Godzilla's quote sums the whole argument up best, i feel.
    And yes, there are several photogs whom I've NEVER worked with personally, yet am rather interested in working with someday in one capacity or another, yee kian being one of them.

    Mia,

    you send me that kind of smiley, eugene would want to "punch my f****** face."

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla Invades
    It works both ways. Nothing is free in this world and if it's free there is always a catch to it.

    Thanks

    hmm

    i'm one who believes that parties should work out a win-win-win situation where the only thing that isn't free is time. i don't deny, i like to shoot for free. i haven't attended a single paid model shoot except for my first. or rather, after that i have not shot a single model until recently... hard to find free one mah.

    don't really have catch lah... just shoot for fun lorh...

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by sequitur
    hmm

    i'm one who believes that parties should work out a win-win-win situation where the only thing that isn't free is time. i don't deny, i like to shoot for free. i haven't attended a single paid model shoot except for my first. or rather, after that i have not shot a single model until recently... hard to find free one mah.

    don't really have catch lah... just shoot for fun lorh...
    Well shooting for fun is ok then.....but let just take for example if one day your work has been spotted by an aspiring georgous model who wants to shoot for her a portfolio, would you charge her a fee?

    Models are not hard to find. Seriously speaking....

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by tygrr_eyez
    It works both ways. Nothing is free in this world and if it's free there is always a catch to it.

    Godzilla's quote sums the whole argument up best, i feel.
    And yes, there are several photogs whom I've NEVER worked with personally, yet am rather interested in working with someday in one capacity or another, yee kian being one of them.

    Mia,

    you send me that kind of smiley, eugene would want to "punch my f****** face."
    Actually in this forum there are always plenty of argument but I find this thread is still clean. We are just debating and churning our thoughts. We try ways of different suggestion to make the the models and photographers life easier to work.

    yee kian aka imagine? Yes he is one of the photographers who is shooting almost everyweek. See his folio and you will know.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla Invades
    Well shooting for fun is ok then.....but let just take for example if one day your work has been spotted by an aspiring georgous model who wants to shoot for her a portfolio, would you charge her a fee?

    Models are not hard to find. Seriously speaking....

    that would depend on situation - but if i were to give an answer now it would be "no", i would not charge. like i said, i believe in win-win... even if at the end of the day i do get paid... i'm still shooting for fun.... if you get what i mean...



    edit :

    i finally thought of the correct phrase : it's the enjoyment of the process, rather than the expectations of the final product.

  17. #57
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    I'm not sure about this, I would like to enjoy the process but the final product is the most important thing to me. When I'm doing a shoot, regardless of paid or not, there is some level of stress because I'm a full time photographer. I'll be judge by the final product more than the process of the shoot. Like the time when I'm doing a nude shot, I have to make sure that everything MUST turn out well. If not all the time and cost spend getting the shoot done will be wasted and I'll have to answer for that.
    If a shoot didn't turn out well because of the model (wrong type of model for the shoot) or the client (yes it does happen), than it is another story.
    This is something easy to say but not easy to do and I'm always mindful of it. But I must try my best to make sure that the shoot happen. That's what, in my view, we should strive for. Maybe I'm asking too much of myself but that's how I'm train while working as an assistance.
    For tfp/tfcd, there is less stress and a little more element of fun in the shoot, but we should try not to waste the model's time or our own, if not, I guess a cup of coffee will be better, I don't mind buying.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by sequitur
    that would depend on situation - but if i were to give an answer now it would be "no", i would not charge. like i said, i believe in win-win... even if at the end of the day i do get paid... i'm still shooting for fun.... if you get what i mean...



    edit :

    i finally thought of the correct phrase : it's the enjoyment of the process, rather than the expectations of the final product.
    Cool thoughts over your new Summer Breeze collections.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by yqt
    I'm not sure about this, I would like to enjoy the process but the final product is the most important thing to me. When I'm doing a shoot, regardless of paid or not, there is some level of stress because I'm a full time photographer. I'll be judge by the final product more than the process of the shoot. Like the time when I'm doing a nude shot, I have to make sure that everything MUST turn out well. If not all the time and cost spend getting the shoot done will be wasted and I'll have to answer for that.
    If a shoot didn't turn out well because of the model (wrong type of model for the shoot) or the client (yes it does happen), than it is another story.
    This is something easy to say but not easy to do and I'm always mindful of it. But I must try my best to make sure that the shoot happen. That's what, in my view, we should strive for. Maybe I'm asking too much of myself but that's how I'm train while working as an assistance.
    For tfp/tfcd, there is less stress and a little more element of fun in the shoot, but we should try not to waste the model's time or our own, if not, I guess a cup of coffee will be better, I don't mind buying.
    Irregardless whether it's a paid job or not, any other kind of job in this world
    we should strive our best. Be it in Electronics, IT, Selling satay or even NTUC cashier....we should strive our best in what we do.

    Even people who organise shoot like Astin, Modelshooterz, Kirk, Rennamia and the rest.....if it is poorly organise nobody would even attend their shoots. So all careful planning is needed, especially in photoshoots.

    Models too must try their best to perform at their peak when the situation is called for. Same goes with us photographers. Always have preparation in our pre shoots and planning.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla Invades
    yee kian aka imagine? Yes he is one of the photographers who is shooting almost everyweek. See his folio and you will know.
    Hm, I know this is OT, but what about his folio? Saw it. What do you guys think?

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