Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 104

Thread: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

  1. #81
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    10,849

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by maisatomai View Post
    I once heard a wedding photographer complains that the client demand him to stay throughout from 4am-next day 1am, with the last photo featuring the bride closing the house door.
    was he paid extra? if not that's terrible... imagine next day he got another job... he will not have much time to rest...

  2. #82
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NA
    Posts
    5,247

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    was he paid extra? if not that's terrible... imagine next day he got another job... he will not have much time to rest...
    Thats why many pro photographers are charging by the hour. My bro's wedding photographer charged AUS$250/hr. So if that was the case, it was pretty alright that the bride and groom can ask the photographer to stay to whatever time, even to film their entire bed activity if needs be... anyway the clock is ticking, so they still pay.
    I am not a photographer, just someone who happened to have a couple of cameras.
    My lousy shots

  3. #83

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309 View Post
    like that... our bosses who know we can shoot are the freeloaders
    agreed... but cant say no to those freeloaders right? unless you planning to change job
    Alpha
    Want to get back to photography

  4. #84

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    I just want to make a point:

    Everyone seems intent on condeming the original TS for being a cheapo, so when we are asked to pay for services rendered, or when we pay for a product, lets also be conscious that maintain the same attitude and reward good service with the proper amount and not be cheapo ourselves too.

    EG if we spend a whole day asking questions at a certain shop, buy from them, and not go somewhere else for a slightly better price. Then we encourage people who adopt the same behaviour...
    Nikon D750; FM2; FG; 55mm Micro Nikkor; 28-300 VR; 70-200 VR; Nikon V1 + 10-30mm

  5. #85
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    10,849

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
    I just want to make a point:

    Everyone seems intent on condeming the original TS for being a cheapo, so when we are asked to pay for services rendered, or when we pay for a product, lets also be conscious that maintain the same attitude and reward good service with the proper amount and not be cheapo ourselves too.

    EG if we spend a whole day asking questions at a certain shop, buy from them, and not go somewhere else for a slightly better price. Then we encourage people who adopt the same behaviour...
    not really.

    for product prices that are already fixed (probably +- by 10-50 dollars for different shops), we can't be too cheapo. but we will go for the lowest possible price.

    for service related, i doubt we will go for too cheapo (when too cheap, its too good to be true!) so we will source for suitable reasonable quotes. For example, plumber A charges me $50 for his service, plumber B charges me $30 for his service, plumber C charges me $5 for his service. I think I will choose plumber B for a safer mind. Cos I dun want my whole kitchen to be flooded with water after serviced by plumber C!

    For TS, she came in with either a mindset that she can get cheapo photographer in Clubsnap or she just dunno about the market rate, she probably compared the rates according to part time works, so to her $25 per hour should sounds reasonable enough. But she didn't factor in the transportation, the PP work that needs to be done after the shoot etc. And bear in mind... for any decent entry level photographers or new photographers... charging at $25 per hour is quite insulting (or maybe to student photographers, $25 sounds alot).

    And soon, maybe someone will come in offering $25 for a 2 hour ROM shoot!
    Last edited by sinned79; 31st August 2011 at 03:53 PM.

  6. #86

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    not really.

    for product prices that are already fixed (probably +- by 10-50 dollars for different shops), we can't be too cheapo. but we will go for the lowest possible price.

    for service related, i doubt we will go for too cheapo (when too cheap, its too good to be true!) so we will source for suitable reasonable quotes. For example, plumber A charges me $50 for his service, plumber B charges me $30 for his service, plumber C charges me $5 for his service. I think I will choose plumber B for a safer mind. Cos I dun want my whole kitchen to be flooded with water after serviced by plumber C!

    For TS, she came in with either a mindset that she can get cheapo photographer in Clubsnap or she just dunno about the market rate, she probably compared the rates according to part time works, so to her $25 per hour should sounds reasonable enough. But she didn't factor in the transportation, the PP work that needs to be done after the shoot etc. And bear in mind... for any decent entry level photographers or new photographers... charging at $25 per hour is quite insulting (or maybe to student photographers, $25 sounds alot).

    And soon, maybe someone will come in offering $25 for a 2 hour ROM shoot!
    i told my mother about $50, she said it is insulting.

  7. #87

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    not really.

    for product prices that are already fixed (probably +- by 10-50 dollars for different shops), we can't be too cheapo. but we will go for the lowest possible price.

    for service related, i doubt we will go for too cheapo (when too cheap, its too good to be true!) so we will source for suitable reasonable quotes. For example, plumber A charges me $50 for his service, plumber B charges me $30 for his service, plumber C charges me $5 for his service. I think I will choose plumber B for a safer mind. Cos I dun want my whole kitchen to be flooded with water after serviced by plumber C!

    For TS, she came in with either a mindset that she can get cheapo photographer in Clubsnap or she just dunno about the market rate, she probably compared the rates according to part time works, so to her $25 per hour should sounds reasonable enough. But she didn't factor in the transportation, the PP work that needs to be done after the shoot etc. And bear in mind... for any decent entry level photographers or new photographers... charging at $25 per hour is quite insulting (or maybe to student photographers, $25 sounds alot).

    And soon, maybe someone will come in offering $25 for a 2 hour ROM shoot!
    Maybe she think since part-timers get paid $8 per hour, she's being generous by offering $25 per hour, conveniently forgetting that unlike normal part-timers, we have equipment to upkeep.. haha

    ROM if $85 per hour i will shoot.. haha (JasonB say must be at least $80 mah..)
    Last edited by Prince Photogenic; 31st August 2011 at 04:14 PM.
    Alpha
    Want to get back to photography

  8. #88

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Always remember what one pro said here before: u may break your equipment on the assignment, so make sure your price includes this bit.

  9. #89
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NA
    Posts
    5,247

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by sfoto100 View Post
    Always remember what one pro said here before: u may break your equipment on the assignment, so make sure your price includes this bit.
    True there... saw a pro that was hired to take photos of us during graduation day, had his 1D dropped down the stairs (not sure how it happen), but I felt heart ache when seeing that baby bouncing down the hard concrete stairs and crashed on the cement ground... I am pretty sure there goes his 1D and 24-70mm f2.8L and his fee for the whole day.
    I am not a photographer, just someone who happened to have a couple of cameras.
    My lousy shots

  10. #90
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    10,849

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl






  11. #91

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Isn’t all these gwc jumping the gun. Just because you have expensive equipment does not make you a good pro gwc. No matter how long you are at it, even after many years does not guarantee you make the grade like any other arts and craft. Just because you spend big bucks getting equipment with sweat and tears trying to learn the craft will make you any better than the next GWC.
    Just please be humble first and if you are good at your craft, word will soon get around.
    It may be paying peanuts to get monkeys but it is infinitely better than paying big bucks and getting shoddy work.
    A model or actor has to start at the low end before he or she, if only good can command big bucks.
    Just because you can hold a paint brush, does not make you a Picasso.
    Reputation and recommendation is what counts in business. Show your work first, even at a loss. Don’t force a customer to pay first and hope the work will be good. Don’t force a customer to pay for your 7D, if some others are giving better work with their 450D.
    I would rather pay someone big bucks with a p/s who gives me what I want.
    I for one would offer my humble apologies to Dawn Hui for all the unnecessary flaming.
    Shame on all those gwc that think their work must command a big fee from the start. You are no better than my ex plumber who came with an exorbitant call out charge to repair a leaking tap and we finished up with a burst pipe. With the recommendation from a neighbour an odd job man fix everything for a nice cup of tea even though I was willing to pay him big bucks. I can tell you doctors who spend a few 100K learning and at least a good many years training and still come out half bake, but that is another story.

  12. #92
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    10,849

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by davidlee View Post
    Isn’t all these gwc jumping the gun. Just because you have expensive equipment does not make you a good pro gwc. No matter how long you are at it, even after many years does not guarantee you make the grade like any other arts and craft. Just because you spend big bucks getting equipment with sweat and tears trying to learn the craft will make you any better than the next GWC.
    Just please be humble first and if you are good at your craft, word will soon get around.
    It may be paying peanuts to get monkeys but it is infinitely better than paying big bucks and getting shoddy work.
    A model or actor has to start at the low end before he or she, if only good can command big bucks.
    Just because you can hold a paint brush, does not make you a Picasso.
    Reputation and recommendation is what counts in business. Show your work first, even at a loss. Don’t force a customer to pay first and hope the work will be good. Don’t force a customer to pay for your 7D, if some others are giving better work with their 450D.
    I would rather pay someone big bucks with a p/s who gives me what I want.
    I for one would offer my humble apologies to Dawn Hui for all the unnecessary flaming.
    Shame on all those gwc that think their work must command a big fee from the start. You are no better than my ex plumber who came with an exorbitant call out charge to repair a leaking tap and we finished up with a burst pipe. With the recommendation from a neighbour an odd job man fix everything for a nice cup of tea even though I was willing to pay him big bucks. I can tell you doctors who spend a few 100K learning and at least a good many years training and still come out half bake, but that is another story.
    shame? Am know no shame cos I am proud of my own works. And offering $25 per hour to me is an insult, and seeing people offering this amount of money to other photographers I feel insulted for these photographers too.

    skills picked up over time, equipments spent, travel expenses, post processing time, buying photo editing software licenses etc etc etc, there is so many things to consider into the cost.

    But if u want to cheapen yourself and take up this kind of job just to win jobs, then that is shame on you cos you are rating yourself as a $25 per hour photographer no matter how GOOD you are and I can really say, you will stuck with this pricing for a long period of time cos to other ppl you are just a cheapo photographer to be exploited. And when you are tired in and out from taking up these $25 per hour job, you will feel like giving up totally when u are not earning enough.

    Come on man! give photographers or gwc (whatever you call them) a break, I think they deserve at least more then $25 per hours (dun forget the time they spent in learning all the necessary basic skills and upgrading, how do you justify it in terms of cost?)

    if you want to feel sorry for ppl like Dawn Hui, then I also feel sorry for you. Cos you are probably one of these $25 per hour photographers and your expertise/skills is only worth this much.

    and oh btw, sometimes u really got to invest in the right equipments for your job. Try doing a church wedding (lowlight condition) using a 450D and a 5DMKII. And photographers or gwc (whatever you call them) dun invest just cos they can charge higher rates, but cos they need the right equipments to do the jobs. But I do agree some buy for the sake of buying (but they may not be doing as a job but rather hobby and it is for show off purpose only, that's what i call gwc).

    if you as a photographer or gwc (whatever you call it) dun fight for your own rights to be paid better when u take up a job, no one else can help you!
    Last edited by sinned79; 31st August 2011 at 09:56 PM.

  13. #93

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    shame? Am know no shame cos I am proud of my own works. And offering $25 per hour to me is an insult, and seeing people offering this amount of money to other photographers I feel insulted for these photographers too.

    skills picked up over time, equipments spent, travel expenses, post processing time, buying photo editing software licenses etc etc etc, there is so many things to consider into the cost.

    But if u want to cheapen yourself and take up this kind of job just to win jobs, then that is shame on you cos you are rating yourself as a $25 per hour photographer no matter how GOOD you are and I can really say, you will stuck with this pricing for a long period of time cos to other ppl you are just a cheapo photographer to be exploited. And when you are tired in and out from taking up these $25 per hour job, you will feel like giving up totally when u are not earning enough.

    Come on man! give photographers or gwc (whatever you call them) a break, I think they deserve at least more then $25 per hours (dun forget the time they spent in learning all the necessary basic skills and upgrading, how do you justify it in terms of cost?)

    if you want to feel sorry for ppl like Dawn Hui, then I also feel sorry for you. Cos you are probably one of these $25 per hour photographers and your expertise/skills is only worth this much.

    and oh btw, sometimes u really got to invest in the right equipments for your job. Try doing a church wedding (lowlight condition) using a 450D and a 5DMKII. And photographers or gwc (whatever you call them) dun invest just cos they can charge higher rates, but cos they need the right equipments to do the jobs. But I do agree some buy for the sake of buying (but they may not be doing as a job but rather hobby and it is for show off purpose only, that's what i call gwc).

    if you as a photographer or gwc (whatever you call it) dun fight for your own rights to be paid better when u take up a job, no one else can help you!

    All photographers, craftsmen and my children are proud of their work until someone outside tell them how good or bad they are. If you are like the proud naked king that demands respect then I feel sorry for you.
    I have friends that spend more thousands than all the best camera equipment you can buy on a restaurant and have to suffer a few years of losses before gaining a reputation for good service and food. They toil sweat and tears, but they did not go out and drag the customers in to taste their food. Just because someone invest thousands or even millions does not mean they have a sound business plan. Please, please learn some soft skills before it is too late.

  14. #94
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    10,849

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by davidlee View Post
    All photographers, craftsmen and my children are proud of their work until someone outside tell them how good or bad they are. If you are like the proud naked king that demands respect then I feel sorry for you.
    I have friends that spend more thousands than all the best camera equipment you can buy on a restaurant and have to suffer a few years of losses before gaining a reputation for good service and food. They toil sweat and tears, but they did not go out and drag the customers in to taste their food. Just because someone invest thousands or even millions does not mean they have a sound business plan. Please, please learn some soft skills before it is too late.
    FYI, i am not asking for respect.

    by saying that i am proud of my own work to me, it is the first step to step out and take a job. If i dun even feel proud of my own works, i don't think i will even want to step out and take a job.

    well, thanks for your advise, i will definitely pick up soft skills along the way in my path but i want to set things right in the first place.

    If u are really over 50 years old as stated in your profile then uncle, times have changed and costs is going up.

    Do you know that $50 cannot even fetch u a basic servicing at canon service center? Do you know that $50 can buy you only 20 plates of chicken rice which only last 6 days meal if you eat chicken rice for every meal? Do you know how much hours you need to put in to break even your equipment costs before you can spare the next upgrade going by $25 per hour rate? Etc etc

    and btw the way, i believe your friends by spending that many thousands, will charge $25 per hour when they start out.

    The keyword here is to be paid fairly (not asking to be paid alot). So nothing wrong for me to say i offer to use an iphone or point and shoot to take up the job cos this is how much i am being paid and hence i pegged the type of budget given to me to the type to equipment i will use. But hey! Iphone or point and shoot cameras dun come cheap too!
    Last edited by sinned79; 31st August 2011 at 11:25 PM.

  15. #95
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    lil red dot
    Posts
    21,627
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by maisatomai View Post
    I once heard a wedding photographer complains that the client demand him to stay throughout from 4am-next day 1am, with the last photo featuring the bride closing the house door.
    Wow, that photographer must have made a load off additional hours charged!

  16. #96

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    FYI, i am not asking for respect.

    by saying that i am proud of my own work to me, it is the first step to step out and take a job. If i dun even feel proud of my own works, i don't think i will even want to step out and take a job.

    well, thanks for your advise, i will definitely pick up soft skills along the way in my path but i want to set things right in the first place.

    If u are really over 50 years old as stated in your profile then uncle, times have changed and costs is going up.

    Do you know that $50 cannot even fetch u a basic servicing at canon service center? Do you know that $50 can buy you only 20 plates of chicken rice which only last 6 days meal if you eat chicken rice for every meal? Do you know how much hours you need to put in to break even your equipment costs before you can spare the next upgrade going by $25 per hour rate? Etc etc

    and btw the way, i believe your friends by spending that many thousands, will charge $25 per hour when they start out.

    The keyword here is to be paid fairly (not asking to be paid alot). So nothing wrong for me to say i offer to use an iphone or point and shoot to take up the job cos this is how much i am being paid and hence i pegged the type of budget given to me to the type to equipment i will use. But hey! Iphone or point and shoot cameras dun come cheap too!
    Times have not change but I hope I have. I was like you once a very proud young man. Then I learn along the way. If you can’t drag a horse to the water, you can bring the water to the horse. Once the horse taste the water, he will surely go there itself.
    My friend with the restaurant used to charge under $4 in 2007 for a simple dish but now with good service and reputation with a few frills for the same dish he can charge $15. Now he is fitting out his second restaurant, all with humbleness and humility during the first two years he was making losses.
    FYI a plate of char kuay teow was twenty cents when I was young and fifteen cent noodle soup in the school canteen with abalone thrown in. But then you’ll be lucky to earn $25 a month.

  17. #97

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    FYI, i am not asking for respect.

    by saying that i am proud of my own work to me, it is the first step to step out and take a job. If i dun even feel proud of my own works, i don't think i will even want to step out and take a job.

    well, thanks for your advise, i will definitely pick up soft skills along the way in my path but i want to set things right in the first place.

    If u are really over 50 years old as stated in your profile then uncle, times have changed and costs is going up.

    Do you know that $50 cannot even fetch u a basic servicing at canon service center? Do you know that $50 can buy you only 20 plates of chicken rice which only last 6 days meal if you eat chicken rice for every meal? Do you know how much hours you need to put in to break even your equipment costs before you can spare the next upgrade going by $25 per hour rate? Etc etc

    and btw the way, i believe your friends by spending that many thousands, will charge $25 per hour when they start out.

    The keyword here is to be paid fairly (not asking to be paid alot). So nothing wrong for me to say i offer to use an iphone or point and shoot to take up the job cos this is how much i am being paid and hence i pegged the type of budget given to me to the type to equipment i will use. But hey! Iphone or point and shoot cameras dun come cheap too!
    Key-points of reply & apologies if I am too crude...

    1. Proud of your work does not mean your work is good. It may even stagnate your work if you are too proud... be careful.

    2. S$50.00 can get you a heck load of servicing at canon service centre. Heck it could even be free. With some PR skills practice and being both a critical yet nice customer at the same time. They offer the best service vs probably all other major cam brands islandwide.

    3. Which would the logical singaporean newbie gwc think-he-knows-how-to-shoot-for-money-dude choose? $25/hr for a simple birthday job or spend many hours a day on the streets and dream of HCB. We're a practical money-minded society. Thats fine, so long as we learn and deliver.

    4. What is fair to you... is sadly... not necessary fair to your clients. There are countless so called professional pgs who demand $100/hr for event work, but their portfolio is describable to me, who obviously is one of those so called "defensive budget PGs", by the word "crap". And of course we all like to mumble... "It's subjective". "One man's meat is another man's poison". I say yeah right.

    5. Here we go again... when paid little or offered little money photographer ah leong (fake name) brings only his D200 with kit lens instead of D300 with his 17-55 f2.8 and shoots at S size instead of L size files. This type of attitude to me... rather disgusting. And that said, offering your Iphone or PnS camera for Dawn Hui's job does come very close to that as well.

    PS: Ah Leong ended up with several corrupted files on that certain wedding shoot... maybe his D200 was too old?

  18. #98

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    Key-points of reply & apologies if I am too crude...

    1. Proud of your work does not mean your work is good. It may even stagnate your work if you are too proud... be careful.

    2. S$50.00 can get you a heck load of servicing at canon service centre. Heck it could even be free. With some PR skills practice and being both a critical yet nice customer at the same time. They offer the best service vs probably all other major cam brands islandwide.

    3. Which would the logical singaporean newbie gwc think-he-knows-how-to-shoot-for-money-dude choose? $25/hr for a simple birthday job or spend many hours a day on the streets and dream of HCB. We're a practical money-minded society. Thats fine, so long as we learn and deliver.

    4. What is fair to you... is sadly... not necessary fair to your clients. There are countless so called professional pgs who demand $100/hr for event work, but their portfolio is describable to me, who obviously is one of those so called "defensive budget PGs", by the word "crap". And of course we all like to mumble... "It's subjective". "One man's meat is another man's poison". I say yeah right.

    5. Here we go again... when paid little or offered little money photographer ah leong (fake name) brings only his D200 with kit lens instead of D300 with his 17-55 f2.8 and shoots at S size instead of L size files. This type of attitude to me... rather disgusting. And that said, offering your Iphone or PnS camera for Dawn Hui's job does come very close to that as well.

    PS: Ah Leong ended up with several corrupted files on that certain wedding shoot... maybe his D200 was too old?
    i think you misunderstood what sinned79 is trying to say. you're reading literally into what he typed

  19. #99

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    David, reading your posts, I think you do not understand the creative market well, nor have any idea how to grow a career in the creative industry.

    Actually, I think you show pretty poor business sense. No offenses, but not everyone likes to look backwards and think of last time, back in the day, or when I was young, policeman wear shorts and so on. While we are nostalgic and learn from history and experience, we prefer to look forward and grow the future.

    I can appreciate your good intentions though. You sounds like a great guy and a good man, but seriously you have no idea. I do not appreciate some of sinned79's posts, but overall I think he makes great point.

  20. #100

    Default Re: kudos to sinned79 for protecting photographers ricebowl

    Quote Originally Posted by davidlee View Post
    Times have not change but I hope I have. I was like you once a very proud young man. Then I learn along the way. If you can’t drag a horse to the water, you can bring the water to the horse. Once the horse taste the water, he will surely go there itself.
    My friend with the restaurant used to charge under $4 in 2007 for a simple dish but now with good service and reputation with a few frills for the same dish he can charge $15. Now he is fitting out his second restaurant, all with humbleness and humility during the first two years he was making losses.
    FYI a plate of char kuay teow was twenty cents when I was young and fifteen cent noodle soup in the school canteen with abalone thrown in. But then you’ll be lucky to earn $25 a month.
    Honestly speaking i think what everyone said is in their own opinion.
    but right now as we speak we have photographers who doesn't know what they are doing and charging low for shoots like these (50 bucks a day?),
    they (cheap photographers) not only insult clients with their half baked "talents", but also insult photography as a profession.
    i may be a newbie in photography, but at least i know the art in photography and what makes it beautiful.

    not only do those cheap photographers spoil the market they also leave a bad taste for those people who hire them.
    if one is working for a living as a photographer might as well do it right and charge right for your talents/skills and the amount of sweat and time you put into to become a photographer.

    time = money everyone knows that

    right now at this day and age , it is all materialistic when it comes down to money.
    in simple terms you pay peanuts, u get monkey

    not to be disrespectful

    but honestly speaking i'm sure you wont wanna be paid peanuts for a whole day's worth of work don't cha?
    especially at this day and age....

    you had your point sinned79 had his, your standing as a consumer's mindset as he is standing as a photographer's mindset
    Last edited by Akumetsu; 1st September 2011 at 01:56 AM.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •