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Thread: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

  1. #81

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by harlequin2902 View Post
    Thanks for the inputs. Perhaps I should change the way I work, i.e to first show the client the proofs and let them know to select only X number of shots which will subsequently be edited and burnt into CD for them. And for any
    additional number beyond X, its chargeable at $Y per photo.

    In this case, what's a fair way of determining the number for 'X' ?

    But somehow I've been observing that more and more clients are placing quantity i.e "will you take unlimited shots?" as an important criteria almost in the same level as the quality of the photographer's work, in selection of the photographer. And they have the impresison that "taking of unlimited shots" = "delivery of many many many photos". Maybe it's because that's how an increasing number of photographers are marketing their services..

    That's because there are too many "photographers" out there who just take as many pictures as possible without a second thought for composition, art, etc, then burn them on DVDs and hand them all back. It's those type that spoil the market.
    Alpha

  2. #82

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by harlequin2902 View Post
    Thanks for the inputs. Perhaps I should change the way I work, i.e to first show the client the proofs and let them know to select only X number of shots which will subsequently be edited and burnt into CD for them. And for any
    additional number beyond X, its chargeable at $Y per photo.

    In this case, what's a fair way of determining the number for 'X' ?

    But somehow I've been observing that more and more clients are placing quantity i.e "will you take unlimited shots?" as an important criteria almost in the same level as the quality of the photographer's work, in selection of the photographer. And they have the impresison that "taking of unlimited shots" = "delivery of many many many photos". Maybe it's because that's how an increasing number of photographers are marketing their services..
    Most of the time the 'unlimited shots' or the 'deliver all shots' type of photographers are usually the low quality photographers who cannot make good photos and hoping that quantity will make up for the lack of skill and art.

    It only emphasis their imbecility.

    If the photographer is shitty and if 10 photos is 10 pieces of shitt delivered to the client, then giving 1000 photos is like delivering a lorry of shitt to the client.

    In the same way they attracts those type of clients who do not appreciate art and creativity, and those who are looking for quantity and 'a good deal', often does not know how to appreciate real photography. So not really the clients you wanna market to.

    There is no real way of determining the 'X' number, it really depends and differs from session to session, shoot to shoot. And when you start putting a number to it, some clients will start comparing you with the cheapo photogrs and you don't want to fight your battles on those grounds; the cheapos' grounds of comparison of numbers. "You delivered 60 photos a session only ah? Limpei delivered 600 ah! You 600 only talk so loud, limpei delivered 6000 photos ah!"

    My way of doing it is again, that the client understand I deliver based on my artistic vision and on what I deemed appropriate. Anything I deleted or don't deliver is crap and they don't want crap. If they want they have to pay a stupid price for crap. There is ALOT of high quantity low quality photographers out there, you cannot compete with them with cheapness for you will surely lose, you must find another way which is to compete for the quality clients.

    Here's an example of a photographer who shot 300 photos in a session;

    But delivers only 4.

    And the client (someone who understands art) is super happy.

    http://www.davidejackson.com/blog/20...zy-hotel-room/
    Last edited by sjackal; 16th September 2011 at 01:08 PM.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    so far i always been doing this. I will not release the RAW files but I do give back all photos unedited to the clients.

    In my DVD (for the client) I have two folders, edited and unedited, those edited are photos that I handpicked that I feels makes the cut (which is usually the most 15-20% of the total shots i made) will be placed in the edited folder. While the unedited folder, I will have all the jpeg files of all the photos (but of smaller resolution) I shot during the shoot but straight from cam without editing. To me releasing those remaining photos unedited doesn't hurts me a bit because I know there is a certain limit of editing that can be done to these jpeg files.

    So far no complains from my clients or any clients requesting for RAW files (as the cr2 files).
    Last edited by sinned79; 16th September 2011 at 02:19 PM.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by harlequin2902 View Post
    Thanks for the inputs. Perhaps I should change the way I work, i.e to first show the client the proofs and let them know to select only X number of shots which will subsequently be edited and burnt into CD for them. And for any
    additional number beyond X, its chargeable at $Y per photo.

    In this case, what's a fair way of determining the number for 'X' ?

    But somehow I've been observing that more and more clients are placing quantity i.e "will you take unlimited shots?" as an important criteria almost in the same level as the quality of the photographer's work, in selection of the photographer. And they have the impresison that "taking of unlimited shots" = "delivery of many many many photos". Maybe it's because that's how an increasing number of photographers are marketing their services..
    do whatever u deem fit and be paid how much you think you are worth
    protect yourself with a piece of contract
    as you grow better or worst, things will change along the way LOL

    You can charge $XXX for 3 hours
    and give 120 images to your client, addition images for $xxx

    or your can charge $xxx for 3 hours
    and your client get 100% of the images

    or you can charge $xxx for 3 hours
    and client will get the good images u deem fit (at least 50images / hr or etc )

    whatever works for you

  5. #85

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    The whole issue here is not the charge nor the contract nor the images.

    Most issue arise is communication. What you communicate to your prospective clients prior the booking is very important. For wedding work, I tend to show my clients how a typical session looks like so they have some idea about what I am producing. After the session, I will first show them their images the way I show them prior to booking. This generally works really well as they can see the consistency and the reason why they book you in the first place.

    The number of images on CD is then of less importance once you show them the essence of image quality that you "promise" them during the initial meeting.

    The rule of thumb is, do not oversell yourself.

    Most assignments, it takes clients and photographer to work in harmony to ensure best quality that the clients will get and the photographer can produce. In order to do this, your charge should be high enough that they come to you not with pricing in mind but what you are capable of producing to your clients.

    Contracts protect yourself but the ultimate goal is to ensure happy clients as yup can win the battle but lose the war... I don't see the gain in here.

    In commercial world (I mean when money is involve) clients can get what they want but everything come with a price and communication is the crucial part.

    Don't assume if the clients understand how you work if you don't explain them carefully and thoroughly. It takes time, but Rome was not build in one day.

    I have negligible issue over my entire time of working as a professional photographer for the past 8 years... And all that is based on communication.


    Good luck.


    Regards,

    Hart

  6. #86

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    Contracts protect yourself but the ultimate goal is to ensure happy clients as yup can win the battle but lose the war...
    Regards,

    Hart
    Indeed, and I must add that unless you are some big shot fine art photogr doing Art for personal/spiritual purposes, then the majority of us photogs, including the famous ones, are all service providers in a way. And in such environment, photogs with high EQ and good business sense really thrives.

    I never see contracts as a way of protection in case of a lawsuit, fact is that I never want the situation to escalate to a law suit at all, regardless which side is the plaintiff. Contracts really to me, is indeed a legal way to reach an agreement and understanding

    If the client signs your contract uncomfortably or without full understanding, then probably means trouble later down the road.
    Last edited by JasonB; 19th September 2011 at 03:24 PM.

  7. #87

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Yes, don't oversell yourself in order to get the job/business.
    "Hard Sell" won't last long and you will suffer more in the end.
    Sell whatever you are able to deliver, rather than something that you think you might be able to deliver when the time comes.
    Kent Wong Photography |Leica Q & Leica M-P 240 | 75 & 28mm Summilux

  8. #88

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Hi,

    Just would like to add my 2 cents. First off I'd like to say that I understand paid photography is not easy, and much time & effort is expended by the photographer. And understand that quality of a photograph is very important that you would want to deliver the best to the customer.

    But coming from a customer's perspective, why am i paying a professional photographer good money to take photos. What is the primary reason.

    From the replies I have seen here, the answer seems to be "Art". You think they want quality artistic (in terms of good composition, exposure, etc).

    But for the general population, why they want to take photographs is to keep memories, to capture the moment, that once in a lifetime event that is so important to them. So of course it is important that they would want as much quantity as possible.

    Remember that this is not a photoshoot or product shoot. For those I understand that quality is much much more important, and having just a few great / excellent photos is sufficient. However as I mentioned, purpose for a wedding shoot is different, it's for capturing memories.

    Once again, hope this doesn't offend anyone.

    Thank

  9. #89

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    No worries it doesn't offend, it just shows another type of market segment, one that the higher end photogra aren't interested in. Also, it doesn't just mean higher end exclusively, but also in general those who want to create high level of quality in their work. Thus when the your expectations or taste don't gell, both get client and photog unhappy. That is why Hart mentioned about communications and why I added that if the client is uncomfortable with signing my contract (which state what and how I work), then it probably spells trouble. New photogs early without a client base takes all jobs and thus easily run into misfit situations.

    I do have clients sharing your view and thus I referred them to my business partner a videographer, at 30 frames a second of constant video rolling/recording, the client is assured of huge HUGE quantity in terms of video frames footage. He do his final cut director thingy but has options to returns the deleted scenes for a fair price. I still get to shoot my artsy fartsy and we all happy.

    Weird thing is that he actually spent more time editing but some clients prefer unedited chunks of video lasting 6 hours long average for a 10hour wedding. Viewing their wedding vidz is like watching a 6 hour long movie of randomness. As long as the client happy and pays well, we got no problem. Easier job for us actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin Chang View Post
    Hi,

    Just would like to add my 2 cents. First off I'd like to say that I understand paid photography is not easy, and much time & effort is expended by the photographer. And understand that quality of a photograph is very important that you would want to deliver the best to the customer.

    But coming from a customer's perspective, why am i paying a professional photographer good money to take photos. What is the primary reason.

    From the replies I have seen here, the answer seems to be "Art". You think they want quality artistic (in terms of good composition, exposure, etc).

    But for the general population, why they want to take photographs is to keep memories, to capture the moment, that once in a lifetime event that is so important to them. So of course it is important that they would want as much quantity as possible.

    Remember that this is not a photoshoot or product shoot. For those I understand that quality is much much more important, and having just a few great / excellent photos is sufficient. However as I mentioned, purpose for a wedding shoot is different, it's for capturing memories.

    Once again, hope this doesn't offend anyone.

    Thank
    Last edited by JasonB; 19th September 2011 at 06:47 PM.

  10. #90
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin Chang View Post
    Hi,

    Just would like to add my 2 cents. First off I'd like to say that I understand paid photography is not easy, and much time & effort is expended by the photographer. And understand that quality of a photograph is very important that you would want to deliver the best to the customer.

    But coming from a customer's perspective, why am i paying a professional photographer good money to take photos. What is the primary reason.

    From the replies I have seen here, the answer seems to be "Art". You think they want quality artistic (in terms of good composition, exposure, etc).

    But for the general population, why they want to take photographs is to keep memories, to capture the moment, that once in a lifetime event that is so important to them. So of course it is important that they would want as much quantity as possible.

    Remember that this is not a photoshoot or product shoot. For those I understand that quality is much much more important, and having just a few great / excellent photos is sufficient. However as I mentioned, purpose for a wedding shoot is different, it's for capturing memories.

    Once again, hope this doesn't offend anyone.

    Thank
    yes you can as have as many photos as you can, just need to pay accordingly.

    if I spend an hour to get two best photos out of many shots I taken, beside the best photos, you also want to keep the rest of not so good photos, I will very happy let you keep them if you are also paying the same price for it.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  11. #91

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin Chang View Post
    Hi,

    Just would like to add my 2 cents. First off I'd like to say that I understand paid photography is not easy, and much time & effort is expended by the photographer. And understand that quality of a photograph is very important that you would want to deliver the best to the customer.

    But coming from a customer's perspective, why am i paying a professional photographer good money to take photos. What is the primary reason.

    From the replies I have seen here, the answer seems to be "Art". You think they want quality artistic (in terms of good composition, exposure, etc).

    But for the general population, why they want to take photographs is to keep memories, to capture the moment, that once in a lifetime event that is so important to them. So of course it is important that they would want as much quantity as possible.

    Remember that this is not a photoshoot or product shoot. For those I understand that quality is much much more important, and having just a few great / excellent photos is sufficient. However as I mentioned, purpose for a wedding shoot is different, it's for capturing memories.

    Once again, hope this doesn't offend anyone.

    Thank
    Hi Alvin,

    I can understand where you are coming from.

    What I feel what is important in terms of wedding images is the photographer should be able to show you sufficiently how the your wedding unfold on the day. It is after all as you said, the memories behind your wedding.

    Of course, the thought of having "more" pictures is better as it will "cover" more... to be entirely honest, I thought the same when I got married and photography wasn't in my blood back then. However, I was rather dissapointed that I have to spend countless hours to remove the "many shots" given to us which gives no meaning to my wedding day.

    Purchase any type of service means putting your trust in the service provider to deliver what was promised to you. Without that trust, clients, sadly won't get the best or enjoy the process, while the service provider will find a hard time to "figure out" what the clients want.

    I believe the issue here is not the number of images but what you would like to capture and what is deliverred to you.... as a clients, if your primary objective is to get more shots, you can convey that with the photographer, if the photographer is reluctant for whatever reason, then it gives you a good reason to choose someone else.

    As I have mentioned, it is about the trust between the 2 parties as it takes 2 hands to clap.

    Clients choose photographer more then photographer choose client to be honest.

    Regards,

    Hart

  12. #92

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonB View Post
    No worries it doesn't offend, it just shows another type of market segment, one that the higher end photogra aren't interested in. Also, it doesn't just mean higher end exclusively, but also in general those who want to create high level of quality in their work. Thus when the your expectations or taste don't gell, both get client and photog unhappy. That is why Hart mentioned about communications and why I added that if the client is uncomfortable with signing my contract (which state what and how I work), then it probably spells trouble. New photogs early without a client base takes all jobs and thus easily run into misfit situations.

    I do have clients sharing your view and thus I referred them to my business partner a videographer, at 30 frames a second of constant video rolling/recording, the client is assured of huge HUGE quantity in terms of video frames footage. He do his final cut director thingy but has options to returns the deleted scenes for a fair price. I still get to shoot my artsy fartsy and we all happy.

    Weird thing is that he actually spent more time editing but some clients prefer unedited chunks of video lasting 6 hours long average for a 10hour wedding. Viewing their wedding vidz is like watching a 6 hour long movie of randomness. As long as the client happy and pays well, we got no problem. Easier job for us actually.
    Hi JasonB,

    I do read your reply with a bit of awkwardness. It gives me a sense of superiority and photographer is the "ultimate" artist and choosing clients based on the "level"... I am not sure how it digest down as a client to be honest as I might take offend to your post.

    There are different point of views and unfortunately, it is like religion, you can't debate with someone's belief...

    Regards,

    Hart

  13. #93

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin Chang View Post
    Hi,

    Just would like to add my 2 cents. First off I'd like to say that I understand paid photography is not easy, and much time & effort is expended by the photographer. And understand that quality of a photograph is very important that you would want to deliver the best to the customer.

    But coming from a customer's perspective, why am i paying a professional photographer good money to take photos. What is the primary reason.

    From the replies I have seen here, the answer seems to be "Art". You think they want quality artistic (in terms of good composition, exposure, etc).

    But for the general population, why they want to take photographs is to keep memories, to capture the moment, that once in a lifetime event that is so important to them. So of course it is important that they would want as much quantity as possible.

    Remember that this is not a photoshoot or product shoot. For those I understand that quality is much much more important, and having just a few great / excellent photos is sufficient. However as I mentioned, purpose for a wedding shoot is different, it's for capturing memories.

    Once again, hope this doesn't offend anyone.

    Thank
    A photographer, being professional or part-timer, doesn't have many pairs of eyes and hands to cover the 360 degree of angles of shots. When the photographer focus on one area, there are other areas with happening moments that are left out by the photographer at the same time. Hence, in order to have a "complete cover" of your wedding, it's better to engage a few more photographers so that they can cover different angles at the same time. From there, you get the "quantity" and the "quality" as well.
    Hence, when there is only 1 photographer hired, the client and the photographer should have mutual understanding that the photographer is able to capture the sufficient amount of photos that can tell the stories of the wedding with quality.
    Last edited by kentwong81; 20th September 2011 at 10:55 AM.
    Kent Wong Photography |Leica Q & Leica M-P 240 | 75 & 28mm Summilux

  14. #94

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    Hi JasonB,

    I do read your reply with a bit of awkwardness. It gives me a sense of superiority and photographer is the "ultimate" artist and choosing clients based on the "level"... I am not sure how it digest down as a client to be honest as I might take offend to your post.

    There are different point of views and unfortunately, it is like religion, you can't debate with someone's belief...
    Regards,
    Hart
    Yes, some clients would be pissed, some clients would be pleased. And it's still clients who choose the photog, but before that the photog chose a market segment to target first.

    On this photobiz section of Clubsnap I hope to discuss with working photogs without reservations, direct and matter of fact, not overly concerned to sound politically correct to any clients lurking here.

  15. #95
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by kentwong81 View Post
    A photographer, being professional or part-timer, doesn't have many pairs of eyes and hands to cover the 360 degree of angles of shots. When the photographer focus on one area, there are other areas with happening moments that are left out by the photographer at the same time. Hence, in order to have a "complete cover" of your wedding, it's better to engage a few more photographers so that they can cover different angles at the same time. From there, you get the "quantity" and the "quality" as well.
    Hence, when there is only 1 photographer hired, the client and the photographer should have mutual understanding that the photographer is able to capture the sufficient amount of photos that can tell the stories of the wedding with quality.
    that's when u can increase your budget to get the photographer you have engaged to bring along a 2nd photographer to cover those areas that the main photographer cannot cover. Eg, during serving tea time, while the main photographer is capturing this moment, the 2nd photographer can capture the expression of those who are present. Not possible for the main photographer to do both at the same time. Another good example is the "gatecrashing" during the morning highlights, not possible for main photographer to run in and out of the house covering the outside "sabotage" and the inside going ons.

    so to summarise, "pity" the main photographer as he had only 1 pair of eyes, hands and legs which he can only cover as much as he can (he also had to be careful not to miss out any important moments!)

    that is if the customer demands full coverage of his wedding.
    Last edited by sinned79; 20th September 2011 at 11:42 AM.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonB View Post
    Yes, some clients would be pissed, some clients would be pleased. And it's still clients who choose the photog, but before that the photog chose a market segment to target first.

    On this photobiz section of Clubsnap I hope to discuss with working photogs without reservations, direct and matter of fact, not overly concerned to sound politically correct to any clients lurking here.
    I appreciate your openness in discussing the issue. The fact is, I prefer not to claim superiority as a photographer especially if we are dealing with people.

    Yes, there is a different market segments but there is no need to feel that certain level is much superior then the other as I don't think this give the right "image" as a working pro. Do you seriously think that photog who charge more are superior breed to people photog that charge lower and aim at volume market?

    As far as I am concern, if someone pay for my service to capture their image, it is the trust that allow me to successfully take their portrait. The superiority concept do makes people feel "intimidated" and it tend to "hide" the subject's true self and that, make the session less productive.

    This is not being politically correct and make it nice to clients who may look here... But it is a mentality of thinking one is superior then others bothers me.

    Regards,

    Hart

  17. #97

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    I think your trying to put words into my mouth. When did I said that superiority thing? All the while it's you saying that. Or you used your 'sense' to sense I said that?

    I think you have no ill intentions but you might had invested unnecessary emotions while interpretating my post and mistaken my meaning.

    I am more inclined to believe the latter

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    I appreciate your openness in discussing the issue. The fact is, I prefer not to claim superiority as a photographer especially if we are dealing with people.

    Yes, there is a different market segments but there is no need to feel that certain level is much superior then the other as I don't think this give the right "image" as a working pro. Do you seriously think that photog who charge more are superior breed to people photog that charge lower and aim at volume market?

    As far as I am concern, if someone pay for my service to capture their image, it is the trust that allow me to successfully take their portrait. The superiority concept do makes people feel "intimidated" and it tend to "hide" the subject's true self and that, make the session less productive.

    This is not being politically correct and make it nice to clients who may look here... But it is a mentality of thinking one is superior then others bothers me.

    Regards,

    Hart

  18. #98

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Hi JasonB,

    Perhaps I did... I apologize for that. Perhaps shouldn't think too much.

    Regards,

    Hart
    Last edited by Agetan; 20th September 2011 at 04:41 PM.

  19. #99

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    No problem Hart, it's all good.

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