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Thread: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by duckside View Post
    Sir, you have just done something that not many ppl in the forum can do. For that, I salute you.
    I salute you too BlitzWerkz. Just be careful of his cronies backing him up

  2. #62

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by lobsterkia View Post
    I salute you too BlitzWerkz. Just be careful of his cronies backing him up
    Hi, what are cronies? Regards
    My previous identity is http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/members/17083-hanqiang1011

  3. #63

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Hmm, why get so personal?

    Agreed with Ellery, when did commercial photography wants RAW file? 16bit Tiff yes, but even then most prefer ready to use jpeg.

    Not every client has an art department waiting to process your raw. Maybe a client in the creative field but almost always they want the finalized work becoz that's why they hire me for. And which salaried employee likes to do the post production work for an external vendor? If they ask for RAW it could mean I messed up and they don't like the final product, or, they dont understand what's a raw file.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonB View Post
    Hmm, why get so personal?

    Agreed with Ellery, when did commercial photography wants RAW file? 16bit Tiff yes, but even then most prefer ready to use jpeg.

    Not every client has an art department waiting to process your raw. Maybe a client in the creative field but almost always they want the finalized work becoz that's why they hire me for. And which salaried employee likes to do the post production work for an external vendor? If they ask for RAW it could mean I messed up and they don't like the final product, or, they dont understand what's a raw file.
    Yup for someone who is not into photography RAW picture could just be the unedited picture (JPEG) you get from the camera

  5. #65

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    I'm facing one such case now. Did an hour-long outdoor wedding photoshoot recently. Shot about 350 photos in total but picked the 50 best and edited for them on a CD. Next day the bride called and said not enough nice photos etc.. they want the rest to choose..
    I thought 50 shots from a 1hr photoshoot is already quite good liao??

    How do you guys deal with this?

    1. Nice is subjective - but then, I guess the rule of thumb in this industry is that any photo that your client likes is a good photo? Even though it may suck in the eyes of a photographer.

    2. Is "standard industry practice" not to return all raw images a good excuse if the client tries to 'accuse' photographer of shortchanging them? We're talking about 50 edited photos given vs 350 total shots...

  6. #66

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by harlequin2902 View Post
    I'm facing one such case now. Did an hour-long outdoor wedding photoshoot recently. Shot about 350 photos in total but picked the 50 best and edited for them on a CD. Next day the bride called and said not enough nice photos etc.. they want the rest to choose..
    I thought 50 shots from a 1hr photoshoot is already quite good liao??

    How do you guys deal with this?

    1. Nice is subjective - but then, I guess the rule of thumb in this industry is that any photo that your client likes is a good photo? Even though it may suck in the eyes of a photographer.

    2. Is "standard industry practice" not to return all raw images a good excuse if the client tries to 'accuse' photographer of shortchanging them? We're talking about 50 edited photos given vs 350 total shots...
    What did your contract stipulate? ALWAYS protect yourself with a contract.
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  7. #67

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    What did your contract stipulate? ALWAYS protect yourself with a contract.
    Just that no prints and photos returned in softcopy on CD-ROM only... Number of photos and type of photos were not covered..

  8. #68
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by harlequin2902 View Post
    I'm facing one such case now. Did an hour-long outdoor wedding photoshoot recently. Shot about 350 photos in total but picked the 50 best and edited for them on a CD. Next day the bride called and said not enough nice photos etc.. they want the rest to choose..
    I thought 50 shots from a 1hr photoshoot is already quite good liao??

    How do you guys deal with this?

    1. Nice is subjective - but then, I guess the rule of thumb in this industry is that any photo that your client likes is a good photo? Even though it may suck in the eyes of a photographer.

    2. Is "standard industry practice" not to return all raw images a good excuse if the client tries to 'accuse' photographer of shortchanging them? We're talking about 50 edited photos given vs 350 total shots...
    yes, you should let your customers know an estimate amount of photos will be given before you shoot, and how many you shot in the session is not their concern.

    it is not an excuse, customers are paying only for good and finished images, want to have more images even the bad one, they can just pay for that.

    anyway, if the customers do not trust the photographers will deliver only their best, you are serving the wrong type of customers.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  9. #69

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    yes, you should let your customers know an estimate amount of photos will be given before you shoot, and how many you shot in the session is not their concern.

    it is not an excuse, customers are paying only for good and finished images, want to have more images even the bad one, they can just pay for that.

    anyway, if the customers do not trust the photographers will deliver only their best, you are serving the wrong type of customers.
    This thing about "good and finished" images - problem is, it's really subjective. What we feel may be all killer shots may only be so-so in the client's eyes and vice versa..

    As the photographer, having gained our experience in selecting shots through experience, we really try our best to pick out the best of the lot to process into the finished images for them. But s**t happens and there are customers who may come along and comment after receiving their photos that - "bro, the photos not nice leh" or "some photos are nice only. not enough nice photos. do you have any more man?"

    What's the generally accepted and agreed way (among photogs) of handling the above situation or communicating with the unhappy client so that we do not end up performing a form of service recovery that is actually a taboo in the industry?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae

    What did your contract stipulate? ALWAYS protect yourself with a contract.
    Could you share how to word contract such that the customer could not come back relentlessly asking for more? Thank you so much
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  11. #71

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowseye View Post
    Could you share how to word contract such that the customer could not come back relentlessly asking for more? Thank you so much
    There mare many examples out there, but I'm not going to upload the one my lawyer wrote for me as I paid good money for that - as should you.

    But common sense will already give you quite a few things to include, such as:

    - Agreed upon number of processed prints and is what size/format (coffeetable book, etc)
    - Agreed upon number of web-sized copies

    etc.

    Also, clearly stipulate what is NOT included, such as full-resolution images, RAW images, etc.


    By the way, clicking on this:
    http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=sa...rvice+contract

    Will give some good examples, such as:

    http://www.21creations.com/PDF/photo...20SERVICES.pdf

    ..which can then be modified as needed.
    Last edited by Rashkae; 15th September 2011 at 06:58 PM.
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  12. #72
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by harlequin2902 View Post
    This thing about "good and finished" images - problem is, it's really subjective. What we feel may be all killer shots may only be so-so in the client's eyes and vice versa..

    As the photographer, having gained our experience in selecting shots through experience, we really try our best to pick out the best of the lot to process into the finished images for them. But s**t happens and there are customers who may come along and comment after receiving their photos that - "bro, the photos not nice leh" or "some photos are nice only. not enough nice photos. do you have any more man?"

    What's the generally accepted and agreed way (among photogs) of handling the above situation or communicating with the unhappy client so that we do not end up performing a form of service recovery that is actually a taboo in the industry?
    if what you show in your portfolio is what you usually deliver, customers should able to receive similar standard for their photos, and it usually won't be any issue on unsatisfactory results.

    and you should able to pick up any signs of their concerns of the outcome during the shoot, you should communicate with them about the shots, rectify any problems there and than, if every seem fine with them during the shoot but making some fuss after seeing the proof, it almost certainly can tell they are trying to find excuse for asking discounts.

    you can tell them you are very happy with the results and want to post it in your blog or facebook, to see how their response.

    worst come to worst, if they are not satisfy with the outcome, you can tell them you are not charging them for your effort and time, but you will to take back all the images and they are not allowed to use any them in any form since they are not happy about it.
    Last edited by catchlights; 15th September 2011 at 08:18 PM.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae

    There mare many examples out there, but I'm not going to upload the one my lawyer wrote for me as I paid good money for that - as should you.

    But common sense will already give you quite a few things to include, such as:

    - Agreed upon number of processed prints and is what size/format (coffeetable book, etc)
    - Agreed upon number of web-sized copies

    etc.

    Also, clearly stipulate what is NOT included, such as full-resolution images, RAW images, etc.

    By the way, clicking on this:
    http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=sa...rvice+contract

    Will give some good examples, such as:

    http://www.21creations.com/PDF/photo...20SERVICES.pdf

    ..which can then be modified as needed.
    Thanks for sharing
    Equipment: D800|D700|11-16|28-75|105 Micro VR|50 F1.4G|85 F1.8G
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  14. #74

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    if what you show in your portfolio is what you usually deliver, customers should able to receive similar standard for their photos, and it usually won't be any issue on unsatisfactory results.

    and you should able to pick up any signs of their concerns of the outcome during the shoot, you should communicate with them about the shots, rectify any problems there and than, if every seem fine with them during the shoot but making some fuss after seeing the proof, it almost certainly can tell they are trying to find excuse for asking discounts.

    you can tell them you are very happy with the results and want to post it in your blog or facebook, to see how their response.

    worst come to worst, if they are not satisfy with the outcome, you can tell them you are not charging them for your effort and time, but you will to take back all the images and they are not allowed to use any them in any form since they are not happy about it.
    Hmm, really don't know what's on their mind lo. They were enjoying themselves during the shoot, everything taken in good timing within the 1 hr, showed them the shots off and on during the shoot on LCD and even asked them if there was any other shots they would like to take when time was up and before we call it a day.. Everything was positive! Until now. Haiz. Anyway, I'm very pleased with those shots and woild gladly add them into my portfolio!

  15. #75

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Harlequin the crux of the issue here is that your verbal was photos return in cd rom.... you failed to mention that you will not be giving every shot back and that they only get back your pick of the day. They would have sensed that there were more shots done than the 50 and would be expecting to see more. A number range manage client expectations on return numbers is always good and a fore warning that they only get back edited meaning you will cull NG ect and they do not get to see these.

    There a need to understand what what a wow image for a client and what makes a wow image for a photographer - they are often the same however in some cases they differ widely.

    One solution is to show that more pictures with some minor NG inside.

    Arrhhh did you mention how many photo you took ? If you showed them during the day of shoot some are savvy enough to read xx of xx and know roughly how many frames were exposed and they would expect to see close to that figure. Give them less is like you are short changing them.
    Last edited by ellery; 15th September 2011 at 11:22 PM.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Indeed, very important to have contract/agreement, even a simple one.

    Mine has it that I shoot AND edit to my artistic vision and I only release shots I deemed good. Manage copyright in your contract, if you want copyright state it, if not state what are your usage rights. RAW images can be purchased at 10 times the usual rates. "Deleted scenes" are charged at a per pic basis, give a good wakeup number like $100 per pic, then they will realise its silly to buy a problematic pic with sleepy eyes or weird expressions.

    About what Catchlights said regarding taking back images, I respectfully disagree. With commercial clients it works in a business to business setting, but with private persons/consumers like couples, once they get the pics - THEY GOT THE PICS. They purchase photography for personal reasons and thus being personal, if they dont share openly and that they hide it from you, no way for you to catch.

    ellery makes good point, and I had used the same method before, just give a few more NG pics in a separate disk. But mine is a very good client, just too excited about their wedding pics. Be wary of some cheapo clients who are just trying telling to pull a 'complaint no good can get more discount' trick.
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  17. #77

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    About what Catchlights said regarding taking back images, I respectfully disagree. With commercial clients it works in a business to business setting, but with private persons/consumers like couples, once they get the pics - THEY GOT THE PICS. They purchase photography for personal reasons and thus being personal, if they dont share openly and that they hide it from you, no way for you to catch.
    That's why you only give a cd with small (800x600) images for them to preview, or even best if you only have them on your PC and you have them preview. In your contract, specify that acceptance of the preview shots means acceptance of the shots that will be used for the final image selection, etc. If they back out, too bad lor... They lose their deposit...
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  18. #78
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    yes, it only showing them the proof...... max length 650pixel only, that should able to make a print in postage stamp size out of it.
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  19. #79
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    of course, we don't encounter such customers always, but this is an insurance to them, like return policy.
    you can also limit to minimum charge to cover some of your expenses.
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  20. #80

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Thanks for the inputs. Perhaps I should change the way I work, i.e to first show the client the proofs and let them know to select only X number of shots which will subsequently be edited and burnt into CD for them. And for any
    additional number beyond X, its chargeable at $Y per photo.

    In this case, what's a fair way of determining the number for 'X' ?

    But somehow I've been observing that more and more clients are placing quantity i.e "will you take unlimited shots?" as an important criteria almost in the same level as the quality of the photographer's work, in selection of the photographer. And they have the impresison that "taking of unlimited shots" = "delivery of many many many photos". Maybe it's because that's how an increasing number of photographers are marketing their services..

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