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Thread: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonB View Post
    Forgot to mention another NO!

    Shooting XMMs, both on those paid shoots and on TFCDs. I alway laugh when I saw those in people's portfolio.

    For practice ok, but don't show those for portfolio, they can be good enough for the XMM model wannabe's portfolio for them to get small modeling jobs during school holidays, but they are seldom good enough for a real photogr's portfolio. Photography and clubsnap is so popular that almost anyone will know those XMM shoots are just weekend activities for amatuers, hobbyists, and hamsuplohs and cheekorpeks. No pro or semi pro wanna be branded as amateurish.

    And dont expect another XMM to hire and pay photog money to shoot them, its the other way round. And don't be mistaken that those pics can get you portfolio for fashion industry.

    A person don't become a fashion photogr by shooting XMMs, its a closed door industry, or at least the front door is closed, someone need to open that door for you, or you find a back door or side door yourself to get it.

    People go on youtube and see those glamorous vidz of fashion togs working, a 10 men crew to boss around, 3 lorry of gear, private chopper, exotic locations, 1 million dollar shooting budget, the vidz is only 10 mins of fame. what they dont see is the months and years of socializing with designers and their investors, spending money supporting other people in the same industry, attending their functions, buying their fashions, or creating controversies and getting seen and recognised WITH known names in the same industry. It is hard hard work for ones personality more than their photography. In reality, people work with their own kind, thus if one is not in that circle, one does not get hired. How good your photography, actually doesn't matter. Just look at the nonsense terry richardson puts out.

    Annie Leibovitz aren't a fashion photog for vogue or vanity fair just like that, she shot musicians her whole early life and was already famous for her early works before the fashion mags called her in.
    hahaha... i agree with u on some of Terry photos... haha.. what to do, he is famous! audience is also blinded by fame sometimes...

    and i guess more or less the same for actors and actress, u need to do more to get jobs.. it is not so simple as that!

  2. #42
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonB View Post
    Shoot for free you also must be very selective and choose your game carefully. Ask yourself, does this gig look like one that people will normally pay money for? If it is, yes, go for it, might be portfolio worthy.

    Examples of YES!

    Shooting a wedding for a doctor groom and lawyer bride at Ritz Carlton high class hotel. They don't appreciate photography, don't intend to hire, but somehow you know them and they get you to shoot for fun. Key point is the referrals that opens up to their other doctor and lawyer friends and a high class venue portfolio attracts high class bride.

    Shooting the portrait for your day job boss, MD or CEO of a big MMC or a known company of certain size. Maybe made use of you to save some petty cash, but the next corporate client won't know, they only know you shoot CEOs for annual reports.

    Shooting the annual gala dinner of the charity or animal/human/women rights organization you belonged to, where they invited the President as guest of honor. You get to put president photo as the first pic for your portfolio, plus you get to meet other vendors (or established event shooters) and other businesses that is rich enough to donate money.

    Example of NO!

    Shooting the ROM or budget shotgun wedding of your friend, maybe held at ROM, after that they go to a common restaurant for buffet, informal affair, dont let too many people know its shotgun, not enough time to get hotel, or no budget.

    Shooting your friend who just got retrenched and now his needing a portrait for use at his new job as an insurance/property agent now.

    Shooting your friend's daughter's 2 years old birthday party held in her flat or the RC block party regardless they invite MP or not.


    I hope I made sense.
    You are absolutely correct.

    for shooting "ROM or budget shotgun wedding of your friend", can consider doing it out for goodwill, helping out a friend, but if it is a stranger...... sorry lar, find your own friend.

    for shooting resume headshot, can send them to me.... lol,

    for shooting friend's daughter's birthday party, bo pian lar, because you are the God father mah..... lol
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
    www.benjaminloo.com | iStock portfolio

  3. #43

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    LOL .. jasonB sums up all

  4. #44

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    when come to today digital era, any tom dick harry can be photographers now, everyone says "digital so good, can anyhow shoot, don't need films anymore, shots don't like can delete away and it cost nothing, some more one CD disc is only 25cents, a DVD disc only cost 50cents".

    If the photographers can think this way, how to expect clients/customers can understand better? ain't we suppose to educate our clients/customers??

    when photographers start giving away all the photos, especially for free or low price jobs, not to be surprise they'll be treated as a camera man.
    the cameraman can only compete with each other to see who can shoot more give more images, quality is no longer a concern and this will only make their clients/customers getting more and more greedy.

    Just look at those TFCD being offered here, it attract freeloaders to come here to look for free services, they no longer want TF"CD" but want TF"DVD", they want all photos being touch up, they want free transport, they want free makeup, they want free studio, they want the shoot to be all day long. btw, most of you don't get to see the service wanted threads as we had deleted it away, but I believe some of you may being asked what other things you can offered when approach those seeking TFCD.

    and those who approach the paid assignment in service wanted threads, was keep wondering "my offer is very cheap already, how come still no response?" for this, you need thank to those go around offering free shoots.
    You CHEAP? so what? people can shoot for FREE leh!

    One pro says this, Like I always tell fellow industry people, stop complaining about the industry because YOU GUYS MAKE UP THE INDUSTRY!

    photographers, ask yourself, is this a competition you like to see?
    Oh, pertaining to this problem, I think it's everywhere. Just thought I might share with you guys:

    http://www.zarias.com/cheap-photogra...try/#more-1159

  5. #45

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphitee View Post
    Oh, pertaining to this problem, I think it's everywhere. Just thought I might share with you guys:

    http://www.zarias.com/cheap-photogra...try/#more-1159
    Good link for more reading out of Singaporean/Clubsnap's perspective.

    Undercutting doesn't just happen to Photographers, another occupation that starts with a big P too, recently.

    But photographers who undercuts only cut themselves, for if your 'selling point' is by you being cheap, then there is always someone cheaper and someone willing to do it for free.

    Some people think that Photographer is a glamourous occupation and they dont mind doing for free for the 'glamor' or 'bragging rights'. I wonder what makes them do so. In reality a photographer is just another craftsman or worker, unless we are talking about top fashion togs but then again I like to mention the famous Annie Leibovitz again. Google a bit and you will read about her near bankruptcy and her 24 million debt, and it was only recently in 2009. There is nothing glamorous about being a photographer. Some people would eagerly shoot their friends weddings for free so as to play 'wedding photog'. I think they should feel sad that their friend see them as a free worker instead of a respected guest.

    Photographer is a hard job, charge appropriately for it. Keep the business sustainable. Take care of the industry, and the industry will take care of you.
    Last edited by JasonB; 28th August 2011 at 06:15 AM.

  6. #46
    Senior Member
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Going back to the Orignal Posters question.

    It's a simple thing. If he didn't pay you as a photographer but gave you a bit of money afterwards then he has no legal right to the shots.

    However, if you accept payment (he becomes a client) then he is legally entitled to ALL images taken while in his employ. However, the format is of your choosing.

    Now the salient point. Regardless of whether you are shooting for free or being paid, ALWAYS and I will repeat ALWAYS have a written contract. In it stipulate that you reserve the right to only display to the client and release to the client frames that have passed your Quality Assurance (ie have been correctly batched) and specify that they will ONLY receive digital images of a given size and format (eg 700px wide x 72lpm in JPEG format). NO Raw files are available for the client and that all images will be deleted XX months after the shooting date unless otherwise agreed to in writing and the payment of storage fees etc.

    In otherwords, cover your arse legally and don't cut corners. If you are going to shoot something shoot it on a professional level and don't ***** about being a halfwit. Professional photography is business and that is the most important lesson any of you can learn.
    Last edited by Ian; 28th August 2011 at 02:15 PM.
    The Ang Moh from Hell
    Professional Photography - many are called, few are chosen!

  7. #47

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphitee View Post
    Hello everyone! Just a question to ask everyone about this (slightly sticky) situation I encountered recently.

    Recently, I helped my friend shoot his wedding AD, and everything went pretty well. A week after I gave my friend the photos photos, he told me that he wants "ALL the RAW photos" returned.

    While I'm sure I did not shortchange him any photos, I didn't think it's part of the general photog practice to return all the raw (anything unedited) photos to the client.

    Sigh, this is when my friend start all the "I got friends told me they got all their raw photos back." and go on to voice about the "lack of photos".

    I must admit I'm pretty new to the wedding photog biz, but returning all raw and unedited taken on the actual day to the client? This is against my work ethics. ): I felt rather insulted.

    So, I would like to ask all the big brothers out here, do you return all of your RAW photos to your client? And if so, under what circumstances?

    Your guidance and enlightenment is much appreciated!
    I will always give them the RAW files upon requests from clients' - for wedding photography. For commercial photography, I always give RAW - afterall, the image you produced usually will be edited by the designers or art directors for other applications!
    My previous identity is http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/members/17083-hanqiang1011

  8. #48

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzWerkz View Post
    I will always give them the RAW files upon requests from clients' - for wedding photography.
    What a shame. No wonder why so many clients think it's the norm. Ah well, your business model is your own business.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzWerkz View Post
    For commercial photography, I always give RAW - afterall, the image you produced usually will be edited by the designers or art directors for other applications!
    Commercial photography usually ONLY uses/demands the RAW file anyway. Which is why you should charge a premium.
    Alpha

  9. #49

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    What a shame. No wonder why so many clients think it's the norm. Ah well, your business model is your own business.



    Commercial photography usually ONLY uses/demands the RAW file anyway. Which is why you should charge a premium.
    What is your problem with my mode of operations? I supposed you jump into conclusions too quickly aren't you? For weddings/commercial it's usually the case of client want or don't want? Why should I give them RAW when they didn't request. And I think you are jumping into conclusion too, I give doesn't mean I don't charge them. Don't think I am not around long enough to know what is spoiling market. I didn't mention anything about charging doesn't mean I don't charge in terms of professional practice. And why the heck should I give the whole set of RAW files besides the few needed for projects.
    My previous identity is http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/members/17083-hanqiang1011

  10. #50

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzWerkz View Post
    What is your problem with my mode of operations? I supposed you jump into conclusions too quickly aren't you? For weddings/commercial it's usually the case of client want or don't want? Why should I give them RAW when they didn't request. And I think you are jumping into conclusion too, I give doesn't mean I don't charge them. Don't think I am not around long enough to know what is spoiling market. I didn't mention anything about charging doesn't mean I don't charge in terms of professional practice. And why the heck should I give the whole set of RAW files besides the few needed for projects.
    Now you are contradicting yourself. First you say you give them the RAW, now you are saying you don't. Make up your mind.
    Alpha

  11. #51

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    True, So then? I didn't specify clearly! You aren't wise either to judge everything aren't you?

    You still didn't read clearly, depending on clients' whether they need or not. I mentioned it. Can't you see it?
    Last edited by BlitzWerkz; 14th September 2011 at 07:28 PM.
    My previous identity is http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/members/17083-hanqiang1011

  12. #52

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzWerkz View Post
    True, So then? I didn't specify clearly! You aren't wise either to judge everything aren't you?

    You still didn't read clearly, depending on clients' whether they need or not. I mentioned it. Can't you see it?
    It's ok. You have your way to run your business. I just hope you word your contracts better than your posts.
    Alpha

  13. #53

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    It's ok. You have your way to run your business. I just hope you word your contracts better than your posts.
    You can have your way of doing business and insulting others too but please respect others and put your words wisely!
    My previous identity is http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/members/17083-hanqiang1011

  14. #54

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    It's ok. You have your way to run your business. I just hope you word your contracts better than your posts.
    Your choice of replying have just shown me the level of intelligence you have.
    My previous identity is http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/members/17083-hanqiang1011

  15. #55

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzWerkz View Post
    You can have your way of doing business and insulting others too but please respect others and put your words wisely!
    It wasn't an insult. It was a straightforward comment. Realizing things like that make a big difference when revising contracts.

    Before you start commenting on the intelligence of others, take a good look in the mirror first.
    Alpha

  16. #56

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzWerkz View Post
    I will always give them the RAW files upon requests from clients' - for wedding photography. For commercial photography, I always give RAW - afterall, the image you produced usually will be edited by the designers or art directors for other applications!
    Dude I do not know from where did you get this idea that in commercial work you need to give back RAW as in camera raw files and the same for wedding clients. People pay a photography for the final image which is a lot more than a camera raw file. That is your "negetive" from which you refine what was captured into the final image in your mind's eye. This is one that has value because if you have done your work right, no fool with a camera should be able to deliver an identical file to what you crafted.

    Even if your concept of RAW is every stick and stone you shot - again no commercial client want to wade through all your shots - it is boring and not worth their time. Wedding couple may talk about wanting everything back but trust me if they see more than 2 shots in close sequence, they will start complaining about why got so many repeats. Learn to renumber the handover files - save time explaining why got missing file numbers. Wedding clients who do not have Photoshop or Lightroom or Aperture ect will not be able to do anything with a RAW (camera raw) file again you get complaints your disk faulty I cannot open the files.

    If your clients tell you this (everyone give me back every thing) then you have been had. Commercial clients only want the polished and refined image not the camera raw which is to them half finished work which some one else has to make right for them.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    Dude I do not know from where did you get this idea...
    Be careful, he will just comment that now he fully understands your level of intelligence.
    Alpha

  18. #58

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Ok fine, I apologize for all the misunderstandings caused. I shall keep my mouth shut. I shall not comment further with regards to individual mode of operations.

    Once again a big sorry.
    My previous identity is http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/members/17083-hanqiang1011

  19. #59

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    Be careful, he will just comment that now he fully understands your level of intelligence.
    After a cool shower, I am at fault of writing wrong things. I suggest you tone down too.

    Regards
    Last edited by BlitzWerkz; 15th September 2011 at 12:07 AM.
    My previous identity is http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/members/17083-hanqiang1011

  20. #60

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzWerkz View Post
    After a cool shower, I am at fault of writing wrong things. I suggest you tone down too.

    Regards
    Sir, you have just done something that not many ppl in the forum can do. For that, I salute you.

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