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Thread: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Cannot lah... senior... he's still my teacher afterall.. I must respect him.. He's the one who thought me alot of flash and ambience lights.. what are the do's and don't.. But he really did show us his photos... pretty good leh..

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Sorry noob question here...a RAW file is still a file, why cannot release them to the client like the normal JPEGs?

  3. #23

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingrayangel View Post
    I dun give my clients the raw files.. as most of the seniors have pointed out the reasons why.. but there's one and only advantage.. if you are a really very very good photographer that doesn't need much editing.. you could show to your clients that there's not much difference from your raw file and edited files... I think they will be very very much impressed by your workz.. I haven't reached that stage yet hehee... Mr Edward Cheong one of the trainer in knowledge bowl did that... He is also one of my teacher...
    In a controlled setting ie portraiture with lightings, RAW and JPEG can look very similar because you get to tweak your lighting ratios, exposure and color temp. In a journalistic shooting event like a wedding (like the TS's situation), things are ever changing and moving fast, some form of processing and correction are often needed to make files look right.
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexxmexx View Post
    Sorry noob question here...a RAW file is still a file, why cannot release them to the client like the normal JPEGs?
    Intellectual property. Brain child of the artist/photographer.

    Just like you don't give away your son, a photog protects his IP.

    That is also why some intellectual properties are referred to as "Orphan Works" (which means the copyright owner cannot be contact or disappeared or died) but the point here is to once again note the reference word used (orphan) is similar to having sons and daughters.

    Thus it shows how dear IP is to the artist/photographer, be it a RAW file or an original drawing.
    Last edited by sjackal; 17th August 2011 at 07:36 AM.
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  5. #25
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexxmexx View Post
    Sorry noob question here...a RAW file is still a file, why cannot release them to the client like the normal JPEGs?
    RAW file is like negatives in the film heyday.

    photographers do not release negative to customers, if any customers asked, the replies are either "over my dead body", or "it will cost you an arm and a leg".
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  6. #26
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexxmexx View Post
    Sorry noob question here...a RAW file is still a file, why cannot release them to the client like the normal JPEGs?
    once u gave away the RAW files, u no longer owns the copyright (in a way), cos u can no longer proof that you shoot those photos?

  7. #27
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    when come to today digital era, any tom dick harry can be photographers now, everyone says "digital so good, can anyhow shoot, don't need films anymore, shots don't like can delete away and it cost nothing, some more one CD disc is only 25cents, a DVD disc only cost 50cents".

    If the photographers can think this way, how to expect clients/customers can understand better? ain't we suppose to educate our clients/customers??

    when photographers start giving away all the photos, especially for free or low price jobs, not to be surprise they'll be treated as a camera man.
    the cameraman can only compete with each other to see who can shoot more give more images, quality is no longer a concern and this will only make their clients/customers getting more and more greedy.

    Just look at those TFCD being offered here, it attract freeloaders to come here to look for free services, they no longer want TF"CD" but want TF"DVD", they want all photos being touch up, they want free transport, they want free makeup, they want free studio, they want the shoot to be all day long. btw, most of you don't get to see the service wanted threads as we had deleted it away, but I believe some of you may being asked what other things you can offered when approach those seeking TFCD.

    and those who approach the paid assignment in service wanted threads, was keep wondering "my offer is very cheap already, how come still no response?" for this, you need thank to those go around offering free shoots.
    You CHEAP? so what? people can shoot for FREE leh!

    One pro says this, Like I always tell fellow industry people, stop complaining about the industry because YOU GUYS MAKE UP THE INDUSTRY!

    photographers, ask yourself, is this a competition you like to see?
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    when come to today digital era, any tom dick harry can be photographers now, everyone says "digital so good, can anyhow shoot, don't need films anymore, shots don't like can delete away and it cost nothing, some more one CD disc is only 25cents, a DVD disc only cost 50cents".

    If the photographers can think this way, how to expect clients/customers can understand better? ain't we suppose to educate our clients/customers??

    when photographers start giving away all the photos, especially for free or low price jobs, not to be surprise they'll be treated as a camera man.
    the cameraman can only compete with each other to see who can shoot more give more images, quality is no longer a concern and this will only make their clients/customers getting more and more greedy.

    Just look at those TFCD being offered here, it attract freeloaders to come here to look for free services, they no longer want TF"CD" but want TF"DVD", they want all photos being touch up, they want free transport, they want free makeup, they want free studio, they want the shoot to be all day long. btw, most of you don't get to see the service wanted threads as we had deleted it away, but I believe some of you may being asked what other things you can offered when approach those seeking TFCD.

    and those who approach the paid assignment in service wanted threads, was keep wondering "my offer is very cheap already, how come still no response?" for this, you need thank to those go around offering free shoots.
    You CHEAP? so what? people can shoot for FREE leh!

    One pro says this, Like I always tell fellow industry people, stop complaining about the industry because YOU GUYS MAKE UP THE INDUSTRY!

    photographers, ask yourself, is this a competition you like to see?
    yes, i think the situation is very bad for people who want to step into offering commercial service.. i don't think it will get better, it will only get worse.

    Although I don't like to see such competition I have to face reality... yes, reality sucks. It always does!

  9. #29

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    and those who approach the paid assignment in service wanted threads, was keep wondering "my offer is very cheap already, how come still no response?" for this, you need thank to those go around offering free shoots.
    You CHEAP? so what? people can shoot for FREE leh!
    Look at the responders to those threads, many of the replies start with "I can offer you affordable photography" "I can offer good and cheap" "I can meet your budget".

    It always makes me wonder what motivates these photographers? Or what are they thinking? Is the first thing that comes to mind is being "cheaper so that I can get the job"?

    Shrugs.

    There are faster, easier and better ways to earn money, why do it via cheap photography?

    There are more enjoyable ways to do photography, why do it via lowering your self worth?
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  10. #30
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    Look at the responders to those threads, many of the replies start with "I can offer you affordable photography" "I can offer good and cheap" "I can meet your budget".

    It always makes me wonder what motivates these photographers? Or what are they thinking? Is the first thing that comes to mind is being "cheaper so that I can get the job"?

    Shrugs.

    There are faster, easier and better ways to earn money, why do it via cheap photography?

    There are more enjoyable ways to do photography, why do it via lowering your self worth?
    I must admit, I am somehow like them when I started taking up paid job, except that I dun really lower my price or undercut others... but rather offer free shoot in the form of TFCD. my purpose of doing is to actually "beg" for chance to build up my portfolio back then.

    now i dun do that anymore... cos either they pay me the price i quoted them, or i rather give this job a miss... and continue to enjoy my photography hobby.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    there are many ways to climb the ladder
    i never shoot for free
    i am lucky i did the right way, meet the right people: mentors / boss, and charge the right way

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    I must admit, I am somehow like them when I started taking up paid job, except that I dun really lower my price or undercut others... but rather offer free shoot in the form of TFCD. my purpose of doing is to actually "beg" for chance to build up my portfolio back then.

    now i dun do that anymore... cos either they pay me the price i quoted them, or i rather give this job a miss... and continue to enjoy my photography hobby.
    So is it ok to: Shoot for free till enough portfolio then start charging as per normal rate?
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by soeypixels View Post
    there are many ways to climb the ladder
    i never shoot for free
    i am lucky i did the right way, meet the right people: mentors / boss, and charge the right way
    If I could start charging a normal rate right from the beginning, I would want to...
    But nobody would give you chance.
    I would love to learn from experienced seniors. But my luck had brought me no mentor willing to take apprentice.
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  14. #34
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowseye View Post
    So is it ok to: Shoot for free till enough portfolio then start charging as per normal rate?
    if u are comfortable with this path, go ahead. it works for me. but just to let u know even though i am only taking paid jobs now, it is very little (definitely not enough to earn u bread and butter on the table) cos i dun have a lot of jobs. anyway i got a full time job now... so that is fine, i take it that this is extra income for me, but i am still continuing to build up my portfolio, and i hope to step into photography full time when i am ready (probably in a few years time).

    and oh like you, i dun have a mentor to guide me. all my photography skills now is self taught through trial and error and i am still learning new things everytime. luckily i am an IT person so i can design my own website with my programming knowledge and bit of SEO knowledge to bring some awareness to my website. I also invest heavily on better equipments that can help me cut down time on doing PP work (actually equipments does helps u get better photo in terms of photo quality but ultimately u still need a good pair of eyes to use these better equipments to your advantage), so most of my works, due to my better equipments, for example, i am using a 5DMKII, this gives me good ISO control which i can save time removing unwanted noise when shooting in high ISO and I uses prime lens which gives me good quality photos and enable me to shoot in low light conditions without the need of heavy equipments like 70-200 (although i am still toying the idea of getting one, but the weight puts me off) + using primes helps me to train to shoot in all angles as compare to lazy angles using zoom lens, I can save alot of time on PP to enhance my works, in fact most of my works have very minimal PP done (just the usual applying curves, sharpening if needed, adding special effects like vignetting or noise), that's all.
    Last edited by sinned79; 18th August 2011 at 12:17 AM.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    if u are comfortable with this path, go ahead. it works for me. but just to let u know even though i am only taking paid jobs now, it is very little (definitely not enough to earn u bread and butter on the table) cos i dun have a lot of jobs. anyway i got a full time job now... so that is fine, i take it that this is extra income for me, but i am still continuing to build up my portfolio, and i hope to step into photography full time when i am ready (probably in a few years time).

    and oh like you, i dun have a mentor to guide me. all my photography skills now is self taught through trial and error and i am still learning new things everytime. luckily i am an IT person so i can design my own website with my programming knowledge and bit of SEO knowledge to bring some awareness to my website. I also invest heavily on better equipments that can help me cut down time on doing PP work (actually equipments does helps u get better photo in terms of photo quality but ultimately u still need a good pair of eyes to use these better equipments to your advantage), so most of my works, due to my better equipments, for example, i am using a 5DMKII, this gives me good ISO control which i can save time removing unwanted noise when shooting in high ISO and I uses prime lens which gives me good quality photos and enable me to shoot in low light conditions without the need of heavy equipments like 70-200 (although i am still toying the idea of getting one, but the weight puts me off) + using primes helps me to train to shoot in all angles as compare to lazy angles using zoom lens, I can save alot of time on PP to enhance my works, in fact most of my works have very minimal PP done (just the usual applying curves, sharpening if needed, adding special effects like vignetting or noise), that's all.
    Thanks, sounds like a good guide for me
    I'm also from the IT line btw. Working on my portfolio and website at the same time.
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  16. #36
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowseye View Post
    So is it ok to: Shoot for free till enough portfolio then start charging as per normal rate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowseye View Post
    If I could start charging a normal rate right from the beginning, I would want to...
    But nobody would give you chance.
    I would love to learn from experienced seniors. But my luck had brought me no mentor willing to take apprentice.
    If you want to take this route, build a solid foundation of basic photography first, else free jobs and freeloaders will kill you first before you can benefit anything. and also give a super bad names to fellow photographers.
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  17. #37
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    If you want to take this route, build a solid foundation of basic photography first, else free jobs and freeloaders will kill you first before you can benefit anything. and also give a super bad names to fellow photographers.
    yeah i agree.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Shoot for free you also must be very selective and choose your game carefully. Ask yourself, does this gig look like one that people will normally pay money for? If it is, yes, go for it, might be portfolio worthy.

    Examples of YES!

    Shooting a wedding for a doctor groom and lawyer bride at Ritz Carlton high class hotel. They don't appreciate photography, don't intend to hire, but somehow you know them and they get you to shoot for fun. Key point is the referrals that opens up to their other doctor and lawyer friends and a high class venue portfolio attracts high class bride.

    Shooting the portrait for your day job boss, MD or CEO of a big MMC or a known company of certain size. Maybe made use of you to save some petty cash, but the next corporate client won't know, they only know you shoot CEOs for annual reports.

    Shooting the annual gala dinner of the charity or animal/human/women rights organization you belonged to, where they invited the President as guest of honor. You get to put president photo as the first pic for your portfolio, plus you get to meet other vendors (or established event shooters) and other businesses that is rich enough to donate money.

    Example of NO!

    Shooting the ROM or budget shotgun wedding of your friend, maybe held at ROM, after that they go to a common restaurant for buffet, informal affair, dont let too many people know its shotgun, not enough time to get hotel, or no budget.

    Shooting your friend who just got retrenched and now his needing a portrait for use at his new job as an insurance/property agent now.

    Shooting your friend's daughter's 2 years old birthday party held in her flat or the RC block party regardless they invite MP or not.


    I hope I made sense.
    Last edited by JasonB; 18th August 2011 at 01:14 PM.

  19. #39
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonB View Post
    Shoot for free you also must be very selective and choose your game carefully. Ask yourself, does this gig look like one that people will normally pay money for? If it is, yes, go for it, might be portfolio worthy.

    Examples of YES!

    Shooting a wedding for a doctor groom and lawyer bride at Ritz Carlton high class hotel. They don't appreciate photography, don't intend to hire, but somehow you know them and they get you to shoot for fun. Key point is the referrals that opens up to their other doctor and lawyer friends and a high class venue portfolio attracts high class bride.

    Shooting the portrait for your day job boss, MD or CEO of a big MMC or a known company of certain size. Maybe made use of you to save some petty cash, but the next corporate client won't know, they only know you shoot CEOs for annual reports.

    Shooting the annual gala dinner of the charity or animal/human/women rights organization you belonged to, where they invited the President as guest of honor. You get to put president photo as the first pic for your portfolio, plus you get to meet other vendors (or established event shooters) and other businesses that is rich enough to donate money.

    Example of NO!

    Shooting the ROM or budget shotgun wedding of your friend, maybe held at ROM, after that they go to a common restaurant for buffet, informal affair, dont let too many people know its shotgun, not enough time to get hotel, or no budget.

    Shooting your friend who just got retrenched and now his needing a portrait for use at his new job as an insurance/property agent now.

    Shooting your friend's daughter's 2 years old birthday party held in her flat or the RC block party regardless they invite MP or not.


    I hope I made sense.
    yes of cos u make sense. Want to shoot for free for portfolio must also see if it is worthy to keep as portfolio unless you want to treat it as practise session.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Do you return ALL your RAW photos to your clients?

    Forgot to mention another NO!

    Shooting XMMs, both on those paid shoots and on TFCDs. I alway laugh when I saw those in people's portfolio.

    For practice ok, but don't show those for portfolio, they can be good enough for the XMM model wannabe's portfolio for them to get small modeling jobs during school holidays, but they are seldom good enough for a real photogr's portfolio. Photography and clubsnap is so popular that almost anyone will know those XMM shoots are just weekend activities for amatuers, hobbyists, and hamsuplohs and cheekorpeks. No pro or semi pro wanna be branded as amateurish.

    And dont expect another XMM to hire and pay photog money to shoot them, its the other way round. And don't be mistaken that those pics can get you portfolio for fashion industry.

    A person don't become a fashion photogr by shooting XMMs, its a closed door industry, or at least the front door is closed, someone need to open that door for you, or you find a back door or side door yourself to get it.

    People go on youtube and see those glamorous vidz of fashion togs working, a 10 men crew to boss around, 3 lorry of gear, private chopper, exotic locations, 1 million dollar shooting budget, the vidz is only 10 mins of fame. what they dont see is the months and years of socializing with designers and their investors, spending money supporting other people in the same industry, attending their functions, buying their fashions, or creating controversies and getting seen and recognised WITH known names in the same industry. It is hard hard work for ones personality more than their photography. In reality, people work with their own kind, thus if one is not in that circle, one does not get hired. How good your photography, actually doesn't matter. Just look at the nonsense terry richardson puts out.

    Annie Leibovitz aren't a fashion photog for vogue or vanity fair just like that, she shot musicians her whole early life and was already famous for her early works before the fashion mags called her in.

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