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Thread: why can't they build compact full frame ?

  1. #21

    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by giantcanopy View Post
    Still the M9!
    imagine if sony came out with a fullframe NEX at $2K

  2. #22
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309 View Post
    imagine if sony came out with a fullframe NEX at $2K
    Actually I would prefer that Sony came out with a sub 2K FF SLT camera... not too small and not too big... and with insanely fast speed too

  3. #23

    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    thanks. i think i understand now.
    they can do it technically (evidence is compact film camera -- with small zoom lens can project the image on the film of which size is like 24mm x 35mm), but because of some marketing reason, they didn't do it.

  4. #24
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ehchang View Post
    thanks. i think i understand now.
    they can do it technically (evidence is compact film camera -- with small zoom lens can project the image on the film of which size is like 24mm x 35mm), but because of some marketing reason, they didn't do it.
    Exactly. Like what we always say in the consumer electronic industry, "We can design anything you want, just pay the money." And a look in the market... no one's gonna pay huge sum of money for a compact camera with FF sensor (P&S user would not want this type of upgrade - too expensive, season DSLR user would most probably be more comfortable with handling a DSLR size camera...) thus there is simply no market or very niche market for such a system.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    actually, i beg to differ. there always is a niche for novel products, just take those "tough" compact cams as a referance. there are people who pay thousands for large cams, but those cams do not always accompany the owners as much as a compact 1 will.

    there are advanced compacts like Panasonic LX5, Canon G12 (G-series), Olyumpus XZ-1, etc. they dun have much zoom, are not pocketable, dun have much optical zoom, are not full frame sensors, but are out in the market, & they dun cost above SGD$1000.

    just because i am not into fast, expensive cars doesn't mean everyone shares my views. there are always people who will stop at nothing to buy the best of the best out there or bespoke luxury items, simply because they want it & can afford. $30000 above for a watch does exist.

    very long nv post liao, haa...
    have u seen the "light" yet?

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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    They want to let the higher end FF consumers to continue enjoying the exclusivity. They have segmented the market into two big markets, one for the pros, one for the newbies. Statistically, a large portion of their revenue comes from the newbies, since there are much more newbies than pros, while the pros are the ones who would bomb money on FF cameras, f2.8 lenses, holy grail lenses etc etc. They want to keep these consumers, so if they were to build a compact full frame, they might jeopardize the whole market, or rather their product lines. Imho.

  7. #27
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    actually, i beg to differ. there always is a niche for novel products, just take those "tough" compact cams as a referance. there are people who pay thousands for large cams, but those cams do not always accompany the owners as much as a compact 1 will.

    there are advanced compacts like Panasonic LX5, Canon G12 (G-series), Olyumpus XZ-1, etc. they dun have much zoom, are not pocketable, dun have much optical zoom, are not full frame sensors, but are out in the market, & they dun cost above SGD$1000.

    just because i am not into fast, expensive cars doesn't mean everyone shares my views. there are always people who will stop at nothing to buy the best of the best out there or bespoke luxury items, simply because they want it & can afford. $30000 above for a watch does exist.

    very long nv post liao, haa...
    Yes... there are a niche market for everything. However, a company making any product, would always look to profitability, rather than other factors. Those who wanted and would pay premiums for it, would go for branded items like Leica... that is how Leica's M9 is in production.

    As for the example of G12, LX5 and XZ-1... they sell well because they are compacts that are approaching APS-C camera's standard and they don't cost more than $1000.

    Sure if anyone could create a FF compact camera below $2000 or $3000, I can see a market for it... and the market will be huge. But I cannot imagine how anyone could create such a camera.

    By designing and creating a camera that is so costly to manufacture and design just for a small niche market would be unthinkable for any industry who are bended on capturing as much market shares as possible and making as much profit out of their products as possible, unless that is one of their marketing strategy as a statement to the market saying that they have the technology for so and so product and are the first to do it, or as a market trend setter, to capture a market that they predict are small but growing rapidly.

    However right now, I am not seeing such a market growing. And as I have mentioned before, no one or very few would want to spend that much in a compact camera with FF sensor chip... P&S user who wanted to upgrade would either choose an entry level DSLR, SLT or mirrorless while season user who wanted to upgrade from their existing camera would choose a full FF DSLR or a APS-H DSLR... while a niche will use very expensive rangefinder camera such as the M9... so the market is actually pretty satuated.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ehchang View Post
    there could be a simple answer to this but it puzzles me for quite sometimes.
    Last time we can have film compact camera with zoom. can't they replace the film size with an equal size sensor, and of course add some electronics to it and have a compact full frame camera ?
    What you mean is that why film camera can be FF even compact while digital can't, right?

    Cause of $$$. 1 roll of film plus develop into photo = $. Long run, 1 x $ = many x $.
    If a sensor of doing FF inside a compact and not all people wants develop into photo. How much should a FF compact cost then? All about $, not they dont want.
    So, you want FF, go for DSLR. Else maybe when FF sensor are super cheap to develop, then you will see FF compact camera.
    Only Sony device mostly, haha!

  9. #29
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ehchang View Post
    thanks. i think i understand now.
    they can do it technically (evidence is compact film camera -- with small zoom lens can project the image on the film of which size is like 24mm x 35mm), but because of some marketing reason, they didn't do it.
    sort of, for an example, can they put a 4000cc engine into a mini cooper? yes, they can, but how many people will buy it? and now does it perform than a normal version mini?
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  10. #30
    Senior Member giantcanopy's Avatar
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    sort of, for an example, can they put a 4000cc engine into a mini cooper? yes, they can, but how many people will buy it? and now does it perform than a normal version mini?
    4000 cc in a mini sounds like great idea

  11. #31
    Senior Member giantcanopy's Avatar
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BBTM View Post
    So, you want FF, go for DSLR. Else maybe when FF sensor are super cheap to develop, then you will see FF compact camera.
    My guess is eventually it will, just have to wait long enough for tech to trickle down

  12. #32
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Rhino123,

    hmmm, lots of your opinion on marketing strategy, viability (to cater to such a niche), high production costs, isn't relevent to the OP's question. while they do factor into any company's bottomline, in the end some of the points raised are but personal opinions, its not objective to impose your views as facts. who is to say P&S users would certainly want an entry level DSLR, SLT or mirrorless, if a full frame compact option is open to them?

    it would be interesting to have a poll on this.

    if there is a market for advanced compacts like LX5, ZX-1 & G12, who is to say there isn't one for full frame compacts? in the world of photography, if there are people who spend above $20000 on their entire set-up as a hobbyist, who is to say there isn't anyone willing to shell out $2000-$3000 on a FF compact cam? who too, is to say it will surely cost that amount?

    in short, the answer to the OP's question is "Yes, it can be done.". a relevent question would be, compact by what standards? since digital revolution have constantly open up possibilities for smaller compact cams to be made each passing year. & a compact cam of similiar zoom range 5 years back is much bigger than it is today.
    have u seen the "light" yet?

  13. #33
    Senior Member bonrya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kineticworks
    digital compact full frame does exist. Check out Leica M9
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  14. #34

    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    suddenly i think i may have a answer. the optics in compact is not so good, so a small sensor is enough, not worth for a big sensor. maybe a bigger sensor will not improve the image quality a lot. so for big sensor, they always come with bigger lens. maybe only leica is able to build smaller lens with good quality.

  15. #35
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    Rhino123,

    hmmm, lots of your opinion on marketing strategy, viability (to cater to such a niche), high production costs, isn't relevent to the OP's question. while they do factor into any company's bottomline, in the end some of the points raised are but personal opinions, its not objective to impose your views as facts. who is to say P&S users would certainly want an entry level DSLR, SLT or mirrorless, if a full frame compact option is open to them?

    it would be interesting to have a poll on this.

    if there is a market for advanced compacts like LX5, ZX-1 & G12, who is to say there isn't one for full frame compacts? in the world of photography, if there are people who spend above $20000 on their entire set-up as a hobbyist, who is to say there isn't anyone willing to shell out $2000-$3000 on a FF compact cam? who too, is to say it will surely cost that amount?

    in short, the answer to the OP's question is "Yes, it can be done.". a relevent question would be, compact by what standards? since digital revolution have constantly open up possibilities for smaller compact cams to be made each passing year. & a compact cam of similiar zoom range 5 years back is much bigger than it is today.
    Yes, I agree with some of what you have said. And my reply is more based on my personal opinion and a look at the current market trend. Of course what I see might not be representative to the actual market movement (nobody would expect Apple to be such a big hit in the portable music player scene ten or twenty years ago, too ).

    However what I disagree was your example of using advance compact camera. Well... these cameras had small sensor, they are essentially a P&S that are better and provide more manual control as compare to other P&S, so they essentially belongs to the P&S market. The reason that they are selling like hotcakes are because they are relatively cheap as compared to a mirrorless and DSLR, and they shoot better photos. So for photography hobbyists, they might consider getting one because they might not want the cost, the bulk and the weight of a DSLR. and for those who want the compact body of a P&S but quality of a DSLR,they would have gone for the mirrorless and SLT options... however I do agree that some might hope for a FF sensor compact camera... and might be able to fish out the dollars for these systems... but the market would not be large and very brand concentrive. Plus there is already a system in the market and that is the M9... but as compare to the rest of the mirrorless, SLT and DSLR market shares, the M9 is actually diminutive, which also come to my conclusion that the market simply is not large enough.

    Of course, if the cost of such a system is below S$2000 or S$3000, then we might be seeing a bigger market for slightly richer upgraders of either DSLR or compacts. But it is pretty difficult to imagine manufacturing a FF camera this cheaper. Look at it this way, even mirrorless options cost more when compare to the entry level DSLR. A FF 5DmkII cost around S$3K, and expanding on this, the small compact size FF camera might cost around 3+ to 4k... which is too high for most upgraders (my opinion only)... especially to those who are actually sitting on the fences (not knowing if they would go into photography or not).

    And to a commercial company, they would want to make as much as possible from the product they sell... unless they are trying to prove a statement - whether it was that they are technologically better then their competitions, or simply that they would like to show the market that they can. It was like a car manufacturer who build V8 super cars, sell for a premium and know that the sales figures would be low.

    But of course technologically wise, it is viable to create a FF size sensor compact, like what we in the consumer electronic industry always say, "We can design anything you want, just pay the money." This statement actually means that we can do anything as long as there is a market for it.

    Anyway, gotta go now... having a meeting

  16. #36

    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    I think TS got the idea liao. More chatting should be done at Kopitiam instead.

  17. #37

    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by xenith0 View Post
    there are rangefinders: compact cameras with large sensors.

    Er....... Rangefinders are not exactly compacts lei.....

    I would say there is a market for anything!

    I'm a rangefinder shooter & all I can say, coming from the following, the prices people pay for them should sometimes just be called disgusting........ the price of film based rangefinder without the lens can easily put your top of the line dslr to shame, so yea, there is market for anything!

  18. #38
    Senior Member bonrya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kineticworks
    I think TS got the idea liao. More chatting should be done at Kopitiam instead.
    Discussions will be had ad infinitum until the thread is closed.
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  19. #39
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ehchang View Post
    suddenly i think i may have a answer. the optics in compact is not so good, so a small sensor is enough, not worth for a big sensor. maybe a bigger sensor will not improve the image quality a lot. so for big sensor, they always come with bigger lens. maybe only leica is able to build smaller lens with good quality.
    Not necessary. The idea of small optical lens can still yield good result... that can be seen in the case for NEX, PEN, GF, GH and NX series of mirrorless camera. Coupled these with FF sensor will definitely give a much cleaner image at high ISO. Plus it is not Leica that is the only company to be able to build great lens, in the past when most film camera are using 35mm films, we are seeing that the lens are not that much bigger either.

    So that can be translated to today's lens too (I believe)... but as usual, everything boils down to cost... Manufacturing, Designing, logistic and finally what will each company yield when they sell their product. The reason why Leica is able to continuously create and sell their lens, was because there is a demand for their lenses and they can make money (lots of it) from selling these lenses.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: why can't they build compact full frame ?

    Easy la. Just get a compact film n a solid negative scanner. You will see how much you going to spend after 2k of photos. Ha ha!
    Only Sony device mostly, haha!

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