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Thread: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

  1. #21

    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Quote Originally Posted by rhino123 View Post
    Oh... come on. You are not the only one who had been updated with new technology. Our friends - Kei and Rashkae, as well as myself and many others had been stating this obvious developement too. I have been advising newcomers to look to mirrorless options too.

    Plus I would believe A55, A33 are mirrorless options... as well as Panasonic's GH and G series, Olympus Pen series too.

    So please, before you comment on SG photographers being left behind with technology, please read more threads first.
    The A55 and A33 are technically not "mirrorless" since they do have mirrors inside them. These mirrors are translucent. They do not swivel and allow light through for phase detect AF. They are a hybrid species that are only meant for taking advantage of the native Alpha mount and phase-detect AF.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhino123 View Post
    Oh.. read the excellent article "What DSLR to buy (or something to that effect) by Rashkae again. What it stated was DSLR, which mean Digital SLR. Mirrorless format is also part of the SLR format (http://www.mirrorless-dslr-guide.com...rmal-dslr.html), so what was written by Rashkae did apply to mirrorless devices too... I seriously don't see what is the big hoohaa about that.

    Or was it because Rashkae didn't put in Samsung that Shahmatt was so upset about rather than the rest of the mirrorless family?
    Mirrorless is not SLR. SLR stands for single lens "reflex" which relates to the mirror moving out of the way as the photo is taken. In dpreview there is heavy debate on what to call mirrorless. Some say CSC (compact system camera), MILC (Mirrorless interchangeable lens camera) etc. What it is not is a DSLR.
    Last edited by Shahmatt; 31st May 2011 at 11:49 AM.
    Samsung NX10+30mm, Fuji S6500FD

  2. #22
    Senior Member bonrya's Avatar
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    The canon g12 can do that too and you won't need to buy lenses to upgrade. spend your money on accessories! you can get 8-9 billingham bags!!
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  3. #23
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    The A55 and A33 are technically not "mirrorless" since they do have mirrors inside them. These mirrors are translucent. They do not swivel and allow light through for phase detect AF. They are a hybrid species that are only meant for taking advantage of the native Alpha mount and phase-detect AF.



    Mirrorless is not SLR. SLR stands for single lens "reflex" which relates to the mirror moving out of the way as the photo is taken. In dpreview there is heavy debate on what to call mirrorless. Some say CSC (compact system camera), MILC (Mirrorless interchangeable lens camera) etc. What it is not is a DSLR.
    Ok. You might be right on mirrorless camera and DSLR differences... I am wrong, and for that I am sorry.

    However, can your mirrorless camera do what TS had wanted, Vari Screen, good movie mode, fast (speed in not just AF, but in shutter speed too)... did NX system have all of these?

    Plus mirrorless camera - Panasonic and Olympus, didn't offer very high speed. The only camera that had very high speed and do not generally fall under the DSLR format was Sony's SLT - A55 and A33.

    So... not all time would we actually recommend mirrorless... we recommend something that will suit TS's needs... and no matter how fanatic many of us are of the mirrorless technology, it will not always fit into the bill. And so please... not in all the what DSLR to buy thread, would you throw in mirrorless technology. Then when seeing there is no one mentioning the mirrorless options that you deduce that Singaporean photographer are lacking behind in technology as compare to others photographers (especially those from dpreviews).

    And I still don't see why Rashkae need to update his thread on "which DSLR to buy"... whatever written there applied for the mirrorless options too. So what is the problem? It is a generic thread btw.

  4. #24
    Senior Member ZerocoolAstra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    I still don't understand how mirrorless cameras are going to make DSLRs obsolete/extinct
    There's nothing compelling about it besides the smaller form factor, which makes it a good choice for a high-performing compact camera.
    There's nothing inherently wrong with the mirror and prism design. Though quite old school now, it has yet to be outdone in terms of price, performance or reliability.

    ~shrug~
    I think the market should be big enough for all types of cameras to jostle and find a means to survive.

  5. #25
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt

    I don't want to start a war at all. But I think it is only fair that newbies understand that the option is available. Everytime I visit the forum it seems as though I am the only one who talks about this genre. This is kind of disappointing because if you go to dpreview and other international forums mirrorless cams are all the rage. I think SG photographers are being left behind with technology.

    This is why I ask Rashkae respectfully to modify his very good thread to include the option so that I don't have to bring it up. If newbies see the option and do not ask the question then there is no problem at all.
    Hey, an idea for you, Instead of asking others to modify their thread, you can always write your own thread and link to it every time so you do not have to bring it up and say the same thing over and over and over.

    Food for thought.

  6. #26

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    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.. However, saying things like we're backward thinking in technology is uncalled for.

    If that's the case, you wouldn't see so many NEX, GF, GH, EPL on the streets. The only mirrorless camera i've yet to see often is the NX. In fact, i've only seen one shooter using it so far. The rest of the time i see them on the shelves in electronic stores.

    So equating not seeing the NX cameras often DOES NOT equate to mirrorless not being well-adopted in singapore.

    My 2 cents

  7. #27
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt
    The future of digital photography- DSLRs will get outdated soon.
    Here we go again. LOL.

  8. #28
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Funny... only our friend Shahmatt feel that DSLR will be replaced by the mirrorless format (whatever it will be called). I know he is very very excited with the mirrorless format (esp the NX format and he is a proud owner of one), but suddenly he called the DSLR technology outdated soon.

    Frankly speaking... to make a camera small, light and cute looking might appeal to someone... but for many others like myself, we prefer a format that is faster and bigger like the current DSLR, because it feel better and had better grip.

    I am not saying that mirrorless format is not good or whatsoever and I am a proud owner of a Olympus EPL1 (which is a mirrorless format too)...

  9. #29

    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    Here we go again. LOL.
    we should just agree with him that dslr will get outdated SOON~ maybe he will be happy

  10. #30

    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Quote Originally Posted by rhino123 View Post
    Ok. You might be right on mirrorless camera and DSLR differences... I am wrong, and for that I am sorry.

    However, can your mirrorless camera do what TS had wanted, Vari Screen, good movie mode, fast (speed in not just AF, but in shutter speed too)... did NX system have all of these?

    Plus mirrorless camera - Panasonic and Olympus, didn't offer very high speed. The only camera that had very high speed and do not generally fall under the DSLR format was Sony's SLT - A55 and A33.

    So... not all time would we actually recommend mirrorless... we recommend something that will suit TS's needs... and no matter how fanatic many of us are of the mirrorless technology, it will not always fit into the bill. And so please... not in all the what DSLR to buy thread, would you throw in mirrorless technology. Then when seeing there is no one mentioning the mirrorless options that you deduce that Singaporean photographer are lacking behind in technology as compare to others photographers (especially those from dpreviews).

    And I still don't see why Rashkae need to update his thread on "which DSLR to buy"... whatever written there applied for the mirrorless options too. So what is the problem? It is a generic thread btw.
    Lets consider what the TS has asked for:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tucksoon View Post
    My usual photography and videography 'works' are taking portraits, group photos, kids in action, performances, short movies, simple macro, events and weddings (planning only haha!).
    The budget: $3000 is quite generous. Can easily buy a semi professional model like the 7D and do everything that is needed. But the 7D is huge. We don't want the TS to get tired of carrying his camera around.

    Most of the TS's needs relate to social events.

    The best type of camera for social events is the mirrorless category. Since they are small, unobtrusive, and hence more likely to be used.

    The A55 is a good choice and superior in some ways to many other mirrorless options, but why restrict the TS to this model only? Why not bring in the Olympus EPL-2, new Panasonic G-3, Samsung NX11? The disadvantages of these proper mirrorless cameras are only very few, not so much a hobbyist would care, and also the makers produce a good range of compact lenses to go with it.

    Sony's compact lens solutions are supposed to pair with the NEX mount, not the Alpha mount. And they have failed to produce a proper lens road map to go with the NEX mount - so these days I tend to not recommend Sony SLT (alpha mount) anymore since even though the bodies are small - the lenses are not so. Also the company suffered a huge loss last quarter so there may be cutbacks.

    Rashkae's thread does not have the word "mirrorless" inside it anywhere. A newbie will not equate mirrorless image quality to DSLR image quality. This is bad since most newbies buy DSLRs because they want better image quality.

    No one here has yet told the TS that wedding photography is really really REALLY hard. It requires specialized skill and equipment and he should really consider getting a professional to do this. I hope the TS plans to use his camera only as a secondary source of photos. No camera recommendation we make here will work unless the TS is a super fast learner and has uncanny organizing skills.

    I would not recommend the NX10 for the TS since unfortunately the camera in-built jpeg engine is not very good. If you shoot RAW and post process it is as good as an entry level DSLR. But this is a hassle. Not good for beginners. But I would say that the NX10+30mm/F2 kit is by far the best value street-shooting package available for love or for money right now. The camera is tough with great build quality, has great battery life and the kit lens is superb. No other solution compares. But this is my very personal opinion, and I don't want to debate on it.
    Samsung NX10+30mm, Fuji S6500FD

  11. #31
    Senior Member ZerocoolAstra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Wow such generalisation and sweeping statements...

    If I shot with a camera like the 7D and something like an NX10 for a few hours at a go, I wonder which camera would cause me more discomfort
    hmmmm.....

    Nowhere did the TS state that he was intending to be the main photographer for his brother's wedding, even after spending $3K on a camera system. It would help not to jump to conclusions.
    Last edited by ZerocoolAstra; 31st May 2011 at 03:41 PM.
    Exploring! :)

  12. #32

    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Come on, no need to mess up this thread with yet another EVIL vs DSLR. TS is already confused enough to be popping a question here, and now he has to shift thru this argument.

    Ok... ok...
    In summary. EVIL are good (not evil )
    Both DSLRs and EVILs good enough for general photography.

  13. #33
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    Lets consider what the TS has asked for:

    The budget: $3000 is quite generous. Can easily buy a semi professional model like the 7D and do everything that is needed. But the 7D is huge. We don't want the TS to get tired of carrying his camera around.

    Most of the TS's needs relate to social events.

    The best type of camera for social events is the mirrorless category. Since they are small, unobtrusive, and hence more likely to be used.

    The A55 is a good choice and superior in some ways to many other mirrorless options, but why restrict the TS to this model only? Why not bring in the Olympus EPL-2, new Panasonic G-3, Samsung NX11? The disadvantages of these proper mirrorless cameras are only very few, not so much a hobbyist would care, and also the makers produce a good range of compact lenses to go with it.

    Sony's compact lens solutions are supposed to pair with the NEX mount, not the Alpha mount. And they have failed to produce a proper lens road map to go with the NEX mount - so these days I tend to not recommend Sony SLT (alpha mount) anymore since even though the bodies are small - the lenses are not so. Also the company suffered a huge loss last quarter so there may be cutbacks.

    Rashkae's thread does not have the word "mirrorless" inside it anywhere. A newbie will not equate mirrorless image quality to DSLR image quality. This is bad since most newbies buy DSLRs because they want better image quality.

    No one here has yet told the TS that wedding photography is really really REALLY hard. It requires specialized skill and equipment and he should really consider getting a professional to do this. I hope the TS plans to use his camera only as a secondary source of photos. No camera recommendation we make here will work unless the TS is a super fast learner and has uncanny organizing skills.

    I would not recommend the NX10 for the TS since unfortunately the camera in-built jpeg engine is not very good. If you shoot RAW and post process it is as good as an entry level DSLR. But this is a hassle. Not good for beginners. But I would say that the NX10+30mm/F2 kit is by far the best value street-shooting package available for love or for money right now. The camera is tough with great build quality, has great battery life and the kit lens is superb. No other solution compares. But this is my very personal opinion, and I don't want to debate on it.
    If you would finish the entire topic before jumping in and start throwing out mirrorless options, then demanding, asking politely and whatever Rashkae to update his own thread, I would like to point out that TS also like vari screen. He want good movie mode and the such. Plus I remember seeing somewhere that he required speed too.

    So where does your NX10 fit into all these? I don't think it had vari LCD for a starter and I don't think any mirrorless format (if you discount the A55) are actually very fast machine (in term of continuous shutter speed).

    Like I said before, before you even jump in and recommend a system, please look at what TS want.

    Plus, who in the world tell you tat the "The best type of camera for social events is the mirrorless category. Since they are small, unobtrusive, and hence more likely to be used." I have seen many people, including myself, carrying DSLR to social events and they took very very good pics.

    Plus, since you are not TS, how the hell do you know he or she will not be able to handle a 7D for long period of time?
    Last edited by rhino123; 31st May 2011 at 04:00 PM.

  14. #34
    Senior Member ZerocoolAstra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Anyway back to TS' question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tucksoon View Post
    Hi guys,

    Has been a while since I last login. I have been considering upgrading to DSLR for a few years. My previous cameras are Canon A80 (2004-2008) and Canon S5 IS (2008-now). My brother's wedding is around the corner so I'm toying the idea of taking nicer photos during his wedding

    I have been reading up on basics of DSLR, popular brands/model, lens and stuff to buy. So I roughly know a little and have plan a budget of $3000 to spend one go. I know it's a poisonous hobby so I'm trying my best not to upgrade frequently by maxing my budget. Any thoughts?

    My usual photography and videography 'works' are taking portraits, group photos, kids in action, performances, short movies, simple macro, events and weddings (planning only haha!).

    Please recommend DSLR systems and accessories I can consider with my budget. Many thanks bros!
    I might as well take the chance to recommend a Nikon system
    1) D7000 body
    2) Tamron 17-50/2.8 non-VC
    3) SB-700 speedlight

    4) dry cabinet
    5) nice bag
    Should be < $3K
    Exploring! :)

  15. #35
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    Lets consider what the TS has asked for:

    The budget: $3000 is quite generous. Can easily buy a semi professional model like the 7D and do everything that is needed. But the 7D is huge. We don't want the TS to get tired of carrying his camera around.
    Good to be considerate for the TS. But then again, it comes down to what TS wants. Maybe he wants a larger better performing camera with more lens options with the option to do some wedding shoots in the future. In the end it is what TS wants. Not what you think he wants.

    Most of the TS's needs relate to social events.
    TS did mention events, as well as weddings.

    The best type of camera for social events is the mirrorless category. Since they are small, unobtrusive, and hence more likely to be used.
    It is not an absolute. Best for you may not be best for someone else. It comes down to preferences.

    The A55 is a good choice and superior in some ways to many other mirrorless options, but why restrict the TS to this model only? Why not bring in the Olympus EPL-2, new Panasonic G-3, Samsung NX11?
    Sure why not? You are free to suggest them as do others. People will only recommend things they have tacit knowledge of, and stuff they are familiar with. If they do not bring up the NX system, it is not wrong. You are free to recommend it as well.

    The disadvantages of these proper mirrorless cameras are only very few, not so much a hobbyist would care, and also the makers produce a good range of compact lenses to go with it.
    I strongly disagree that there are only very few disadvantages of "proper" mirrorless cameras. We have covered a lot in many exchanges with you in many threads in the past. But it is true many hobbyists will not care about these disadvantages. But many hobbyists do care as well. In the end it is up to personal preferences and where they want to take their hobby.

    Sony's compact lens solutions are supposed to pair with the NEX mount, not the Alpha mount. And they have failed to produce a proper lens road map to go with the NEX mount - so these days I tend to not recommend Sony SLT (alpha mount) anymore since even though the bodies are small - the lenses are not so. Also the company suffered a huge loss last quarter so there may be cutbacks.
    Yes SLT lenses are not small. But at least they have lens choices when compared to NX system at this current point in time.

    Rashkae's thread does not have the word "mirrorless" inside it anywhere.
    Not having the word "mirrorless"? so what? it is his thread. You are free to write your own thread. Seeing how much of a NX and mirrorless evangelist you are, I am very surprised you have yet to put the effort to write an information thread on mirrorless camera. Yet you prefer to weigh in on other people's threads. Put your words into action. If you feel so much for mirrorless and NX system, and believe people are losing out not knowing about them, you should act, and write a comprehensive information thread on the subject. Instead of asking everyone else to conform to your beliefs and do things your way.

    A newbie will not equate mirrorless image quality to DSLR image quality. This is bad since most newbies buy DSLRs because they want better image quality.
    Yes, but some newbies also want image quality better than what mirrorless can offer as well. So newbies should also consider cameras like fullframe or even medium format, if they have the budget for it, and want to take their hobby all the way.

    No one here has yet told the TS that wedding photography is really really REALLY hard. It requires specialized skill and equipment and he should really consider getting a professional to do this. I hope the TS plans to use his camera only as a secondary source of photos. No camera recommendation we make here will work unless the TS is a super fast learner and has uncanny organizing skills.
    It is hard but with effort and perseverance everyone can get there. So if it is hard, people should stop trying or having goals and dreams to works towards? Many awesome wedding photographers started here as well. Who are you to say TS cannot make it in wedding photography? or any other kind of commercial photography?

    I would not recommend the NX10 for the TS since unfortunately the camera in-built jpeg engine is not very good. If you shoot RAW and post process it is as good as an entry level DSLR. But this is a hassle. Not good for beginners. But I would say that the NX10+30mm/F2 kit is by far the best value street-shooting package available for love or for money right now. The camera is tough with great build quality, has great battery life and the kit lens is superb. No other solution compares. But this is my very personal opinion, and I don't want to debate on it.
    Good to have your opinion. My opinion is that the NX system is not a viable system for people who even has some sort of an inclination to take their photography beyond the hobbyist level. Simply because the upgrade roadmap is not there should they need a better performing camera body, or if they need more lenses. The proof, is to just look at the lenses currently available now to NX system. Then again this is my opinion.

    I write this so everyone else reading this can get a balanced view. my 2 cents.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 31st May 2011 at 04:00 PM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucksoon View Post
    Hi guys,

    Has been a while since I last login I have been considering upgrading to DSLR for a few years. My previous cameras are Canon A80 (2004-2008) and Canon S5 IS (2008-now). My brother's wedding is around the corner so I'm toying the idea of taking nicer photos during his wedding

    I have been reading up on basics of DSLR, popular brands/model, lens and stuff to buy. So I roughly know a little and have plan a budget of $3000 to spend one go. I know it's a poisonous hobby so I'm trying my best not to upgrade frequently by maxing my budget. Any thoughts?

    My usual photography and videography 'works' are taking portraits, group photos, kids in action, performances, short movies, simple macro, events and weddings (planning only haha!).

    Please recommend DSLR systems and accessories I can consider with my budget. Many thanks bros!
    It all depends on the system you use in which case Nikon and Canon probably has everything for something and an army of third party vendors that support them.

    For me i use Pentax for the primes.

    My recommendation is rent the camera you intend to buy for the weekend to see if it suits your use or go to the shops to have a feel of the cameras available if not too sure which one is the one.

    For what you do, most likely you will be getting the Tamron 28-75mm and Tamron 90mm Macro. Unless you use the 70-200mm often, just rent it as required. Flashgun is also highly recommended.
    Last edited by Reportage; 31st May 2011 at 04:02 PM.
    You wont see me much less remember me but i am the guy who makes you look good.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    *cough*

    @ daredevil123 and rhino123

    At no point in this entire thread have I actually recommended the NX system for the TS. Please do not jump to conclusions.

    My point is consider mirrorless options. That is all.
    Samsung NX10+30mm, Fuji S6500FD

  18. #38
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    *cough*

    @ daredevil123 and rhino123

    At no point in this entire thread have I actually recommended the NX system for the TS. Please do not jump to conclusions.

    My point is consider mirrorless options. That is all.
    My point is... mirrorless might not be wat TS want. Of course you can recommend whatever system you find viable. But please refrain from calling Singaporean Photographer (me included) as behind technology and there are no mentioning of mirrorless format to anyone asking which DSLR to buy... then go on to demand, or politely ask, Rashkae to update his thread... (that is why you get flame).

    Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, fine. But don't throw down other people's opinion and generalising something like "DSLR will be outdated".

  19. #39
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    *cough*

    @ daredevil123 and rhino123

    At no point in this entire thread have I actually recommended the NX system for the TS. Please do not jump to conclusions.

    My point is consider mirrorless options. That is all.
    I did say a lot more in my response to you. Please see my post above. I responded to each and every one of your points.

  20. #40
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Recommend DSLR for PnS/Super-Zoom upgrader

    I think, rather than immersing in long rhetorical disagreements, it can be more beneficial for some people here to put their effort writing some information guides for newbies (an example being Rashkae's guide to buying DSLR). Take the step up to contribute to the community and write information guides. When different newbies ask the same questions, just provide a link for them to read.

    More efficient, neater and less useless banter and disagreements.

    Just do it. Don't be all talk and no action.

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