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Thread: Beginner to dslr

  1. #41

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    Luckyorange: I welcome the idea if I manage to get away after I have a dslr.

    Alan Chan: I will do that too if I have a dslr. But I think if u are into specializing in some areas than sometimes its hard.

    Another contender I guess would be iphone. Agree?

  2. #42
    Senior Member ZerocoolAstra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginner to dslr

    The whole motivation for the mirror-less camera was to present an overall smaller package.
    Otherwise why get rid of an existing and proven design?

    EVFs have had to improve because of initial response to the first few iterations: slow, poor resolution, etc

    To me, it doesn't make sense that a manufacturer would produce a camera body as big and solid as say... a D3S, then fit an EVF in it. The OVF is so big and bright and fast, and removing it will just create a chunk of empty space.

  3. #43
    Senior Member bonrya's Avatar
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    But now hardly anyone uses film.
    LOL!!!

    Yeah, pfft film. Rubbish.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member ZerocoolAstra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginner to dslr

    Quote Originally Posted by bonrya View Post
    LOL!!!

    Yeah, pfft film. Rubbish.
    cannot liddat!
    film still POWER !
    Exploring! :)

  5. #45

    Default Re: Beginner to dslr

    Quote Originally Posted by ZerocoolAstra View Post
    The whole motivation for the mirror-less camera was to present an overall smaller package.
    Otherwise why get rid of an existing and proven design?

    EVFs have had to improve because of initial response to the first few iterations: slow, poor resolution, etc

    To me, it doesn't make sense that a manufacturer would produce a camera body as big and solid as say... a D3S, then fit an EVF in it. The OVF is so big and bright and fast, and removing it will just create a chunk of empty space.
    The removal of the mirror represents a simplification of camera design and advancement in sensor technology to reproduce images live. It means a camera that is almost purely digital with the exception of the shutter.

    A simpler design is more easier to manufacture. Also the removal of the mechanical mirror will mean a more durable and longer lasting camera.

    EVFs also show more information while taking the photo, such as the histogram, and they always show a 100% view of the final photo after exposure is accounted for, with white balance and color applied. These would make it preferable to the OVF.

    Why wouldn't professionals want these advantages?

    Also, the professional film cameras of many years ago were never as heavy or as bulky as the digital cameras of now. It is only a recent trend that cameras have been so weighty. With more efficient design the camera bodies should start getting light again.
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  6. #46
    Member Alan Chan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginner to dslr

    Quote Originally Posted by bonrya View Post
    Yeah, pfft film. Rubbish.
    only film can capture light almost like our eyes, something which is still impossible by our current level of sensor technology even on the medium format.
    Nikon D700| 70-200mm f/2.8G VR2| 28-70mm f/2.8D| 85mm f/1.8G| 50mm f/1.8G| SB900/SB28| MB-D10

  7. #47
    Member Alan Chan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginner to dslr

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    The removal of the mirror represents a simplification of camera design and advancement in sensor technology to reproduce images live. It means a camera that is almost purely digital with the exception of the shutter.

    A simpler design is more easier to manufacture. Also the removal of the mechanical mirror will mean a more durable and longer lasting camera.

    EVFs also show more information while taking the photo, such as the histogram, and they always show a 100% view of the final photo after exposure is accounted for, with white balance and color applied. These would make it preferable to the OVF.

    Why wouldn't professionals want these advantages?

    Also, the professional film cameras of many years ago were never as heavy or as bulky as the digital cameras of now. It is only a recent trend that cameras have been so weighty. With more efficient design the camera bodies should start getting light again.
    like i said its still a preference. i still stick with big body, completely ignoring the small body of mirrorless as a benefit mentioned in my previous post. i'm using D700 with grip, after trying D3 from my friend, how i wish i could afford it. love the size and weight.

    when auto-gear first came about, many thought it would completely replace manual gear. although many switch to auto-gear for plain ease or laziness, i still stick strictly to manual-gear. like i said time and again, just preference.
    Nikon D700| 70-200mm f/2.8G VR2| 28-70mm f/2.8D| 85mm f/1.8G| 50mm f/1.8G| SB900/SB28| MB-D10

  8. #48

    Default Re: Beginner to dslr

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    I disagree actually. Who could have predicted the almost complete phase out of film cameras 10 years back? But now hardly anyone uses film.

    EVFs are already very good, almost good enough for sports photography. And EVFs provide more information on screen so in some ways it is preferred.

    Sensor quality is independent of whether the camera is mirrorless or a DSLR. A mirrorless camera may even have medium format sensors or full frame sensors in the near future. Why should mirrorless cameras be restricted to APS-C only?
    depends on how you look at it. mirrorless cameras were designed for people (consumers) who want compact cameras to carry around for everyday shooting, yet with good image quality. the resolution is reasonable, which allows for fast processing and uploading.

    but if you're talking about mirrorless Medium Format, who wants to lug around something with a huge sensor, deal with long transfer times and resizing among other things? plus don't forget, the lenses that deal with larger sensor formats are pricey too. and MF isn't something that everyone would want to buy. what with the cost and all (the sensors are very expensive) and the fact that which MF company would redesign a line of MF cameras just to cater to people (very few) who want to carry those resolution beasts around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fringster0
    Ha ha. I will take a look at those stickys. No but i do wonder nowadays more and more people going into dslr, is it jus the hype that they bought the dslr or wat. Wat make them go and buy in the first place?
    I haven't bothered to read the other posts except some on the first page, but to answer that question, some people actually buy it just coz they look cool. They're usually the consumers who use the special effects on them. It's quite easy to differentiate between serious photographers and consumers though. Sometimes consumers can do silly stuff like lighting a landscape with flash.

  10. #50
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    I've a question regarding EVF. To produce that image for framing before shoot, is there any mechanical, electrical or additional battery consuming / wear n tear that is similar to SLR mirror flipping mechanical wear n tear?

    If there is, wouldn't this be considered as the lifetime of a mirrorless camera?
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt

    I disagree actually. Who could have predicted the almost complete phase out of film cameras 10 years back? But now hardly anyone uses film.

    EVFs are already very good, almost good enough for sports photography. And EVFs provide more information on screen so in some ways it is preferred.

    Sensor quality is independent of whether the camera is mirrorless or a DSLR. A mirrorless camera may even have medium format sensors or full frame sensors in the near future. Why should mirrorless cameras be restricted to APS-C only?
    I have to agree with the first part, but it might not be so soon. Do take note of the "might".

    The difference between a digitally generated preview and a viewfinder is it's CPU. Digitally generated previews, or live view on DSLRs, uses a CPU. The viewfinder, however, has a much higher-end CPU that humans won't be producing in our lifetime, or maybe even our grandchildrens', and that is the brain. You'll notice it when you turn on live view in a dark studio and see nothing, but look through the viewfinder and still am able to figure out what it is. Our eyes have extremely fast adaptability compared to the sensors. What the viewfinder does is projects the image to our eyes and let the brain do the job.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt

    I disagree actually. Who could have predicted the almost complete phase out of film cameras 10 years back? But now hardly anyone uses film.

    EVFs are already very good, almost good enough for sports photography. And EVFs provide more information on screen so in some ways it is preferred.

    Sensor quality is independent of whether the camera is mirrorless or a DSLR. A mirrorless camera may even have medium format sensors or full frame sensors in the near future. Why should mirrorless cameras be restricted to APS-C only?
    One have to question what problem the evf is solving. Is it cheaper than a optical vf? No. Is the evf good enough now? No because our eyes are much better with dynamic ranges.

    So what is the evf trying to help in? Simple, evf is there to make things more compact. So, only in a situation where compactness and weight is an issue, will the evf win out to replace the
    Mirror box and penta mirror/prism. So for MF and FF, it doesn't really make sense.

    And you said evf is good enough? Go shoot a sunrise or sunset or in any dramatic contrast scene. You will curse and swear at the evf.

    And film is very much alive. If you have not noticed. It has transcended into the artistic realm. But you are right that for most record keeping and general snap shots, digital is king. But film will live forever, just like how paintings are still around.

    Btw, forensic evidence requires film. Digital pics are not admissible in court yet for forensic evidence. Don't believe the shows in CSI drama series.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 12th May 2011 at 11:21 AM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt

    The removal of the mirror represents a simplification of camera design and advancement in sensor technology to reproduce images live. It means a camera that is almost purely digital with the exception of the shutter.

    A simpler design is more easier to manufacture. Also the removal of the mechanical mirror will mean a more durable and longer lasting camera.

    EVFs also show more information while taking the photo, such as the histogram, and they always show a 100% view of the final photo after exposure is accounted for, with white balance and color applied. These would make it preferable to the OVF.

    Why wouldn't professionals want these advantages?

    Also, the professional film cameras of many years ago were never as heavy or as bulky as the digital cameras of now. It is only a recent trend that cameras have been so weighty. With more efficient design the camera bodies should start getting light again.
    Ask any professional what they think. Don't assume. Assume just makes a xxx of u and me.

    And you must be kidding that professional cameras are heavier today than in the film days. Have you held old school professional film cameras before? Full metal bodies with motor drives and all? Or even old medium or large format cameras? LOL
    Last edited by daredevil123; 12th May 2011 at 12:09 PM.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Beginner to dslr

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    One have to question what problem the evf is solving. Is it cheaper than a optical vf? No. Is the evf good enough now? No because our eyes are much better with dynamic ranges.

    So what is the evf trying to help in? Simple, evf is there to make things more compact. So, only in a situation where compactness and weight is an issue, will the evf win out to replace the
    Mirror box and penta mirror/prism. So for MF and FF, it doesn't really make sense.

    And you said evf is good enough? Go shoot a sunrise or sunset or in any dramatic contrast scene. You will curse and swear at the evf.

    And film is very much alive. If you have not noticed. It has transcended into the artistic realm. But you are right that for most record keeping and general snap shots, digital is king. But film will live forever, just like how paintings are still around.

    Btw, forensic evidence requires film. Digital pics are not admissible in court yet for forensic evidence. Don't believe the shows in CSI drama series.
    LoL. It appears as though you argue just for argument's sake.

    I have already explained why EVFs will make manufacturing simpler - and therefore cheaper.

    I have also explained why the EVF will present advantages over conventional OVFs. These specific problems you talk about for sunrises and sunsets etc. are not a big concern. You should not be viewing the sun directly through OVF anyway - with the EVF at least you can moderate the glare.

    Obviously there are a few of us out there who like to use film. I have even come across pin-hole cameras. Forensics are a specialist application. Tape cassettes are still manufactured in Africa and type-writers are still made in places in the USA. My arguments are for mainstream usage, not for these specialized preferences. I am sorry but your points are just not valid.
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    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt

    LoL. It appears as though you argue just for argument's sake.

    I have already explained why EVFs will make manufacturing simpler - and therefore cheaper.

    I have also explained why the EVF will present advantages over conventional OVFs. These specific problems you talk about for sunrises and sunsets etc. are not a big concern. You should not be viewing the sun directly through OVF anyway - with the EVF at least you can moderate the glare.

    Obviously there are a few of us out there who like to use film. I have even come across pin-hole cameras. Forensics are a specialist application. Tape cassettes are still manufactured in Africa and type-writers are still made in places in the USA. My arguments are for mainstream usage, not for these specialized preferences. I am sorry but your points are just not valid.
    It is obvious who is arguing for arguments sake. Especially coming from a person that have not shot with old film equipment and some one who is obviously not shooting for a living.

    And what is mainstream? Mainstream causual or mainstream professional usage? LOL
    Last edited by daredevil123; 12th May 2011 at 12:13 PM.

  16. #56
    Senior Member bonrya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123

    It is obvious who is arguing for arguments sake. Especially coming from a person that have not shot with old film equipment and some one who is obviously not shooting for a living.
    Eh pls la. Even my ixus 90is also nicer than your so called film. see the design so nice!!
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonrya

    Eh pls la. Even my ixus 90is also nicer than your so called film. see the design so nice!!
    Ya lor. Digital compacts FTW. but film cameras lighter ley. LOL

    Better dun say things like that, wait the fanboys come after me. LOL.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 12th May 2011 at 12:24 PM.

  18. #58
    Senior Member bonrya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123

    Ya lor. Digital compacts FTW. but film cameras lighter ley. LOL

    Better dun say things like that, wait the fanboys come after me. LOL.

    Film lighter meh? I never use before but I don't think so la! I think it's heavier.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonrya

    Film lighter meh? I never use before but I don't think so la! I think it's heavier.
    Dunno la. People say one.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Beginner to dslr

    Why is it... That any recent thread that has a newbie asking what DSLR to get turns into a pro-mirrorless campaign?

    Then might as well just start your own thread where people can discuss this instead of flooding other people's threads with the praises of unproven systems, lenses that are "heralded" because they were slightly better in one aspect than cheap kit lenses, and supposedly have "nice bokeh" when they don't... Then when newbies start a "what dslr to get" thread you can just say "You can also consider mirrorless" and link them to your thread instead of spamming threads and turning everything into a "mirrorless vs. dslr" war.
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