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Thread: Newbies need help right?

  1. #81
    Moderator nitewalk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Most of the time, i can find my info from google. Why? Coz i worked in a job which required me to google information. That was my ricebowl for a temp job. However i can do it doesnt mean i expect others to be able to do it.

    I can do my homework qn, doesnt mean all classmates can do. Doesnt mean they stupid, bcos maybe i happen come across similar concept. But they might be overall more capable than me.

    What i'm saying is, we can go on and on about independent learning. But we should not forget to build an inclusive community. Being inclusive of different needs of people doesnt equate spoon feeding. We can tactfully ask them to search. Newbies may not know how often a qn is asked. Not everything is intuitive.

    You can give a man a rod to fish but at the end of the day, he needs to know what to do with the rod. U dun need to screw the person for him to be able to fish for life.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Yeah, I think Clubsnap is not a school or army camp, but rather a sharing platform where we come here to talk and share what we know about photography.
    The question & answer process involves human communications and interactions which bring extra joy in addition to the hobby. Human don't live alone. But if someone put in aggresive/offensive words for whatever reasons, the platform will lose its originality and meaning.
    Kent Wong Photography |Leica Q & Leica M-P 240 | 75 & 28mm Summilux

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    Cannot agree more and say it better.

    The thing is, to get better in takingpictures, spoonfeeding is the least effective method.




    Then the forum will be a very quiet place. turning the table, if you do not like the answer from a senior to a newbie, simply ignore it.



    Another demand to be spoon fed. Why not jsut go down to AMK, look around, and shoot some. What is the rationale behaind asking others what to shoot?
    again its not about spoonfeeding its about people going to out of their way just to be mean...

    you can not just stand by a be apathetic when you see wrong..

    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edward Burke



    the TS wasnt asking what to shoot he was asking for suggestion of places near AMK where ha can shoot nature the sarcastic comment about getting a map is uncalled for


    again this is another example of people trying to justify their actions so that they could feel better about themselves like i said before..
    whatever makes you sleep better at night...
    Last edited by wasak2000; 14th January 2011 at 02:41 PM.
    D3100

  4. #84

    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by wasak2000 View Post
    the TS wasnt asking what to shoot he was asking for suggestion of places near AMK where ha can shoot nature the sarcastic comment about getting a map is uncalled for


    again this is another example of people trying to justify their actions so that they could feel better about themselves like i said before..
    whatever makes you sleep better at night...
    Ah, that reminds me of an incident (not related to forum) about me trying to get help from my vendor, and instead, I've been told to fill up a form stating the specification of what I want. I mean, I need help, and he somehow portray the 'go help yourself' feeling. This is hopeless, considering that he's my vendor and I'm his potential customer...

    The difference here is, fellow forumers aren't your vendor. They're not obligated to help you, yet they made some comment (hopefully, helpful). That's at least another way of helping...

    But then again, asking a community with different breed of people around to comply to something (eg. rules for harmony) is not going to work. Bottomline, stick to what you are more comfortable with.
    また再建しましょう~ ^_^

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    OIC. ok, at least I get to understand your POV. Agree to not demeaning the TS, but sometimes, one can't help but be amused too, right?

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...29&postcount=1


    anyway, checked some history, seems that the below was the cause of you starting this thread.

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...76&postcount=1

    IMHO, the question could be phrased more clearer, don't you agree?

    peace.


    we can be amused without being mean...

    that thread is not really the cause of this it just made me notice that there seems to be a pattern of bullying that was happening in the forum on a regular basis thats why i decided to point it out in the hope that maybe things can improve..
    D3100

  6. #86

    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by wasak2000 View Post
    we can be amused without being mean...

    that thread is not really the cause of this it just made me notice that there seems to be a pattern of bullying that was happening in the forum on a regular basis thats why i decided to point it out in the hope that maybe things can improve..
    Do you wish to quote a few examples using some of the threads here on the 'bullying'?
    また再建しましょう~ ^_^

  7. #87
    Member crystal1993's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulKami View Post
    Do you wish to quote a few examples using some of the threads here on the 'bullying'?
    I think this is one of the threads that TS means.

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=832529


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    Moderator Francis247's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Can I kindly plead for some courtesy and sanity in this forum?

    Let us cut some slack for our senior and new members here.

    Those who wish to offer their help to newbies, please kindly do it with your heart and not ask for any return. Help because you want to help or share knowledge.

    Those who don't wish to help, just don't bother to click or check out the thread. Go on with your business as usual. Sit back and relax. Switch off or walk off from the computer screen if needed.

    For the newbies, try to slowly look around the forum first. Don't panic if you can't find the answers immediately. Take your time to surf around or search around. If cannot find, then humbly ask for opinions or suggestions. There will be helping hand when you need it.

    May I re-emphasize the spirit of Clubsnap.


    It is the photography community to share knowledge, discuss ideas, forge new friendships with others who have a similar passion and interest in photography.
    莫问前程有愧,只求今生无悔. Time pasts, Places changed, Beauty faded, what is left are Photos of Memories…

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulKami View Post
    Do you wish to quote a few examples using some of the threads here on the 'bullying'?

    Im not here to point fingers at anyone... we are all intelligent people here we know its there no need to single out anyone cause they know who they are

    the point of all this is renew the culture before bad habits like this become 2nd nature to everyone and make the forum a better more nurturing / learning environment for everyone

    but tell you what ill give an example...
    an example of how not to bully people

    http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcbo..._id=3027&page=

    luckily the guy didnt post here had he done so he would have been shredded to pieces
    D3100

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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis247 View Post
    Can I kindly plead for some courtesy and sanity in this forum?

    Let us cut some slack for our senior and new members here.

    Those who wish to offer their help to newbies, please kindly do it with your heart and not ask for any return. Help because you want to help or share knowledge.

    Those who don't wish to help, just don't bother to click or check out the thread. Go on with your business as usual. Sit back and relax. Switch off or walk off from the computer screen if needed.

    For the newbies, try to slowly look around the forum first. Don't panic if you can't find the answers immediately. Take your time to surf around or search around. If cannot find, then humbly ask for opinions or suggestions. There will be helping hand when you need it.

    May I re-emphasize the spirit of Clubsnap.


    It is the photography community to share knowledge, discuss ideas, forge new friendships with others who have a similar passion and interest in photography.
    well said ...
    D3100

  11. #91
    Moderator nitewalk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis247 View Post
    Can I kindly plead for some courtesy and sanity in this forum?

    Let us cut some slack for our senior and new members here.

    Those who wish to offer their help to newbies, please kindly do it with your heart and not ask for any return. Help because you want to help or share knowledge.

    Those who don't wish to help, just don't bother to click or check out the thread. Go on with your business as usual. Sit back and relax. Switch off or walk off from the computer screen if needed.

    For the newbies, try to slowly look around the forum first. Don't panic if you can't find the answers immediately. Take your time to surf around or search around. If cannot find, then humbly ask for opinions or suggestions. There will be helping hand when you need it.

    May I re-emphasize the spirit of Clubsnap.


    It is the photography community to share knowledge, discuss ideas, forge new friendships with others who have a similar passion and interest in photography.
    'nuff said.

  12. #92

    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis247 View Post
    Can I kindly plead for some courtesy and sanity in this forum?

    Let us cut some slack for our senior and new members here.

    Those who wish to offer their help to newbies, please kindly do it with your heart and not ask for any return. Help because you want to help or share knowledge.

    Those who don't wish to help, just don't bother to click or check out the thread. Go on with your business as usual. Sit back and relax. Switch off or walk off from the computer screen if needed.

    For the newbies, try to slowly look around the forum first. Don't panic if you can't find the answers immediately. Take your time to surf around or search around. If cannot find, then humbly ask for opinions or suggestions. There will be helping hand when you need it.

    May I re-emphasize the spirit of Clubsnap.


    It is the photography community to share knowledge, discuss ideas, forge new friendships with others who have a similar passion and interest in photography.
    Well said!

    We were all newbies once! Googling may lead to the answers at times, but sometimes it is nice to have someone "human" reply to our questions.

    A bit like the difference between a usually-irritating voice automated process and talking with a phone operator. Provided the phone operator doesn't drive you nuts

  13. #93

    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    i totally support TS's view on being nice to all and creating a harmonious community, there's really no need for the scarcism and mean-ness. think about it, if someone asks u a newbie question in real life, will you give a sarcastic answer to ask him to google or read up clubsnap stickies? i don't think so right? perhaps a small % of ppl in real life do, so what does it say about them? perhaps they are in a bad mood and need a punching bag, perhaps they have some mental disorder, or perhaps it is really their personality... we can appeal to everyone with all our hearts and soul and ask ppl to be nice etc., but there will always be such ppl around, call them bullies or whatsoever... what can we do about it? like in real life, there will always be ppl who close the lift door deliberately so u can't get in, there are ppl who ill-treat their maids... in a virtual forum, these behaviours become magnified, cos ppl hide behind their forum nicks and avatars, and think they rule the forum as senior members etc.

    on the other hand, clubsnap does has a mission statement & forum rules etc. ... the mods have the responsibility to ensure that whatever inappropriate posts or discussions are dealt with appropriately. polite question - do all the mods have a consistent view on what needs to be done here?

  14. #94

    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Well said in a way indeed... What can be done be done, what cannot be done, let's just leave it as it is...

    To bold on the more important statement:

    Those who don't wish to help, just don't bother to click or check out the thread. Go on with your business as usual. Sit back and relax. Switch off or walk off from the computer screen if needed.
    Last edited by PaulKami; 14th January 2011 at 04:43 PM.
    また再建しましょう~ ^_^

  15. #95
    Moderator Francis247's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheoDR View Post
    Well said!

    We were all newbies once! Googling may lead to the answers at times, but sometimes it is nice to have someone "human" reply to our questions.

    A bit like the difference between a usually-irritating voice automated process and talking with a phone operator. Provided the phone operator doesn't drive you nuts
    Hi there,

    Very nice analogy you got there. Thanks for sharing.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anyway, first of all, sorry to all that I have to bring this topic back up. I know that there is no point to keep flogging a dead horse. I know that some members might find me long-winded but I just want to share my story here. Those who wish to read, just carry on. Those who don't want, just walk away.

    Looking back, when I joined Clubsnap as a member in Jul 2005, I am just a newbie using a Pentax PnS. I know nuts about photography back then. (Not that I am very proficient now but at least good enough to take a picture and understand all those terminology used)

    Back then, I guess DSLR is still not as common as now and the photography community is still of a reasonable size. I gotten my first DSLR which is the Nikon D70s because I was "poisoned" by the beautiful of InfraRed Photography. After taking a dive, I realised that I still know nuts about exposure left alone terms like ISO, shutter speed, aperture and filter. I was totally lost. I slowly read in the forum and posted my fair share of bad pictures and stupid questions. I tried taking some IR photos but was a total failure.

    I was thankful that some members guided me along and ask me to join the IR Outing. After that, I decided to learn more about photography, I went for courses, go for more outings, read up more books and surf web for answers. Back then, Clubsnap was much friendlier with of course some famous or "high-profile" names that I can always remember like espn, student, Deadpoet, Canonised and so on.

    With the launch of more entry-level DSLRs from the camera makers in the recent years, people now opted for a DSLR over the compact camera because of the pricing and the freebies. This caused a boom in the photography community. When people wanted to look for a local photography community to answer to their queries, people turn to Clubsnap because it is the largest photography forum in Singapore. Members signed up hoping to get some instant answers. I think this is a local mindset or culture, people all wanted answers fast and to the point, hoping that people will be kind enough to show the rope.

    However, because of this thinking, newbies posted the same question over and over again without looking past page 1 or doing a search or checking out the stickies or even google.
    Can we blame them for it? Or should we be more tolerance?
    Can we blame newbie wanting to be spoonfed? Or should we point them in the right direction?

    I hope that we all should not forget, we are all newbies once. We are not born to know everything in life. We can be good in something but we can be complete fool or ignorance about other things e.g. martial arts or golfing. How will you feel if some one ask you to google, to read books? You can say that you had done your homework but some time, all we need is some people to give us the keyword and direction on where to look. Or some time, all we ever need is a human touch or voice or response instead of a standard "automated" response, "Let Me Google That For You?". Will you feel good?

    There is always 2 sides of a story. Let me go on to the other side...

    The same goes to the newbies, do show some courtesy and ethnics at times. There were cases where members tried to be helpful but newbies do not show any appreciation at all or complete vanish into the thin air once they gotten their answers. Where is the basic manner of showing thanks or appreciation for the help you received? Again, I blame the local mindset and culture. A simple word of "Thank you" or "Appreciate That" is a bit hard to find these days. There are also cases where members tried to help but the newbies insisted in his/her way and not wanting to learn. How can you learn anything if you come in with a close mind and not open to critiques or suggestion?

    At times, I see this as a chicken and egg problem. Some say that because Senior Members are getting snobbish and not wanting to help newbies, that is why they never show appreciation. Some say because newbies never bother to give a word of thanks and that pissed the Senior members off.

    I think at times, we all got too carried with our life that we forget our humble beginning and take things for granted. The forum had given each of us a voice or online persona and many of us can just hide behind a keyboard and screen and become a "keyboard hero" and some can just show their attitude online but their real personalities are completely different.

    Thanks for reading such a lengthy post. Sorry for wasting your time reading this. The last message that I want to drive at the end of the day is the spirit to promote in Clubsnap, which is...

    share knowledge, discuss ideas, forge new friendships with others who have a similar passion and interest in photography
    .

    Hope that we all can always remember that. Peace to all.
    Last edited by Francis247; 14th January 2011 at 05:07 PM.
    莫问前程有愧,只求今生无悔. Time pasts, Places changed, Beauty faded, what is left are Photos of Memories…

  16. #96
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis247


    share knowledge, discuss ideas, forge new friendships with others who have a similar passion and interest in photography.

    Hope that we all can always remember that. Peace to all.
    I hope we remember that. It is idealistic but if ppls put in effort, the mods take some trouble to instil some of that spirit, steer discussions, guide, it can be done

    Whether that is happening now, though...

  17. #97

    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis247 View Post

    It is the photography community to share knowledge, discuss ideas, forge new friendships with others who have a similar passion and interest in photography.


    I must say that I never once doubt that CS is great place for peeps with interests in photography. I enjoy my time surfing CS more than any other sites elsewhere.

    CS has evolved into a community as mentioned in earlier posts by some of the Bros.
    The community culture is shaped by individuals in this forum.

    I can understand the damage a Newbie gets when a questions got shot down harshly. I can also understand the "duh" feeling you get when you felt that a post is phrased out of context , or lacks personal thought process.


    I am in a profession which requires me to ask for information from clients all the time. If I dont do my background study and ask a really raw question, I will get it big time from them . Depending on their level of unhappiness, their complains varies from a sacrastic remark on the spot, to a outburst of emotions and to a straight phone call to my boss.

    You might say, if they think my questions are stupid and repetitive, they can dont reply me. However, they cannot step away from me because both of us are counter parties in a working relationship which has a common deliverable to our stakeholders.

    I also lead a team of professionals under me. Some of them are newly joined staffs straight from Universities who are really green and raw on the work we have to do. Being the project manager, I have an obligation to coach and answer their queries or problems they face on the job.

    Being in that position, I can tell you how much we appreciate staffs who take time to read up on background information and updates in the various reports we have on hand , before coming to us to discuss the problem they face and ask for help.

    There are some who bring excellence a notch higher as they had actually done their own research and present their facts with their own thoughts on what are the plausible solutions and which should be the correct approach.

    Life being life, there are some who will approach me as if I am Google. Instead of keying into the search bar . They ask " How to do this " " Can tell me where to find it ? " " Can you tell me what is the issue"

    Typically, I will not blow, and will still calmly coach them and get them to arrive at the information they want on their own. Coaching is very different from telling. If I were to reply . This is A . Or Go to B to find the information. I will not be doing the new staff a service as I am inhibiting his abilities to research and solve problem independently.


    I think we all need to exercise the same professional maturity and sensibility on the forum, the same way we do in real life. CS maybe an internet forum where we all post our comments freely and behind a cyber identity, we should exercise basic social manners and social sense.

    Having said that, we should also accept that in life, there are not so nice people as well as nice people. We cannot expect everyone to have the same tolerance level or opinions towards all issues.

    We say that someone made a comment and a CS member disapproves, instead of shelling the TS, the CS member should not reply. Thats a fair comment.

    Likewise, if we see a strongly worded comment made a CS member which we disapproves, instead of making accusation on the CS member being snobbish, playing senior or bullying ( which often is not the true intent of the CS member), we should also try to walk away and not reply to invoke further arguments on the topic. Let the Mods do the job or report the post to the Mods.

    Personally, I tend to think that for a CS member to respond,( even if its not such a nice way) its a sign of committment he is showing that he wish to contribute to the TS's knowledge. If hes not bothered , he will not be angry. Typically, we dont feel much for things we have no association with.

    If he keep quiet, whats the point of being in the forum? Might as well deregister from CS and move on to greater things in life. CS is meant for sharing and collaborating cum exchanging ideas.

    Similarly, for all of us who wish to seek clarifications and knowledge from the community in CS. Do take all comments openly and in our stride. A sarcastic or strong comment may not necessary be invalid. Just because someone is very fierce doesnt mean he cant teach us things.

    In my career, the time that I felt like I learnt alot was the time I worked with a boss that F*** me left right up down center throughout the period I was working with him. Thinking back, it was really good training, but only on hindsight lol.
    Last edited by Atarandas; 14th January 2011 at 06:13 PM.
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  18. #98

    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    another thing to add - "evil breeds evil"

    by condoning the scarcism & mean-ness(be it actual or perceived), ppl will feel that this is acceptable & becomes a norm, and follow suit. is this what we want clusnap to become?

  19. #99
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by trd2970 View Post
    another thing to add - "evil breeds evil"

    by condoning the scarcism & mean-ness(be it actual or perceived), ppl will feel that this is acceptable & becomes a norm, and follow suit. is this what we want clusnap to become?
    I think it's important to differentiate between intent and impact.

    A says: your photograph reminds me of a trash can. It is messy, it is horrible, and elements are scattered haphazardly everywhere. The way you have captured it tends to evoke revulsion in the viewer.

    B says: you have much to learn, young one. Your photo sucks.

    Which one has a good intent?

    Sure, both can convey it nicely, that has to do with impact. Something people have to understand also, on the receiving end, is that people are different. Not everyone feels that there is a need to package comments nicely, especially when all they are doing is commenting on the work. What they are doing is how they think, their style of communicating.

    Of course, the one who has less than good intentions should never be encouraged. But like I said, it's important to tell the two apart.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Newbies need help right?

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    I think it's important to differentiate between intent and impact.

    A says: your photograph reminds me of a trash can. It is messy, it is horrible, and elements are scattered haphazardly everywhere. The way you have captured it tends to evoke revulsion in the viewer.

    B says: you have much to learn, young one. Your photo sucks.

    Which one has a good intent?

    Sure, both can convey it nicely, that has to do with impact. Something people have to understand also, on the receiving end, is that people are different. Not everyone feels that there is a need to package comments nicely, especially when all they are doing is commenting on the work. What they are doing is how they think, their style of communicating.

    Of course, the one who has less than good intentions should never be encouraged. But like I said, it's important to tell the two apart.
    i agree. sometimes we use examples to get our point across, although it might not be nice, it's how we describe..

    i'm not entirely innocent either

    and everyone, at one point or another, has been mean to someone.

    and we must all know where to draw the line between good criticism, and just plain shooting down planes

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