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Thread: Another SHOOTING case!

  1. #21
    Member Deyeno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Override2Zion View Post
    Umm... I don't think my comments are based on no grounds. I've not killed anyone or shot at anyone, please refrain from asking questions like that, its rather insulting. But been shooting with rifles for the past 10 years, practising legally of course. Why were guns invented in the first place? Its a good point for debate. A gun is a weapon and there are reasons why we shouldn't allow people to own them easily.

    A robber with a gun is a criminal, a policeman with a gun is a protector. It is subjective on whether it can be used to do good or bad. How many shooting cases are there in US? Compare that with Singapore. If guns were freely available I'm sure you'd have a lot more gun related violence. Do not be over protective because you own a gun.
    You made the statement that is much easier and convienent to kill people with a gun, actually its quite the reverse, its very hard. I have many friends whom are either LEA or Civilian whom have been in life threatening situations, and all attest its very hard to pull the trigger or any sane person.

    On the otherhand for a person WHOM is determined to kill people, like this incident, you need to look at the reasons why, were they depressed, high on drugs, etc.

    I am not being over protective, it has shown in both AU / UK that gun laws have been ineffective, so what does that tell you ?

    Why the gun is civilization by Marko Kloos
    Link Here!

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

    Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

    In a more simplistic way also:

    I don't carry a gun to kill people.
    I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

    I don't carry a gun to scare people.
    I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

    I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid.
    I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

    I don't carry a gun because I'm evil.
    I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

    I don't carry a gun because I hate the government.
    I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

    I don't carry a gun because I'm angry.
    I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.

    I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.
    I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, not on a sidewalk tomorrow afternoon.

    I don't carry a gun because I'm a cowboy.
    I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

    I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man.
    I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

    I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
    I carry a gun because if I'm unarmed and facing three thugs, I am inadequate.

    I don't carry a gun because I love it.
    I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

    Police Protection is an oxymoron. Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess. As the saying goes: "When seconds count, the Police are just minutes away", but of course by the time they arrive, it's already too late.

    Free citizens must protect themselves.
    Interesting Links:

    Link 1

    Link 2

    Food for Thought, but then again my perspective is not your perspective so you have to drawn your own conclusions.

    Cheers ....
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  2. #22
    Member Deyeno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by wandollar View Post
    Nonsense. Totally unrelated.
    Did you notice Road Rage is on the RISE in Singapore and other countries also. Seems that when some people get behind the wheel of a car they become monsters also

    Cheers ....
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Override2Zion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    I have many friends whom are either LEA or Civilian whom have been in life threatening situations, and all attest its very hard to pull the trigger or any sane person.
    Then I would have only one comment to make, they may be insufficiently trained for the job. You hesitate and innocent people can lose their lives. Officers aren't trained to shoot only to kill, often they would prefer to shoot to immobilize unless necessary. I am actually pretty interested in the country you came from, in Singapore we are brought up with very different set of moral values. We are trained to base our comments on logic, not just with personal opinions. Facts and figures tells the truth. You have yet to quote any cases of gun related violences in Singapore. Unless you could, all arguments on this issue are pointless.

    Besides, lets not turn this thread into a battlefield for such arguments. This thread is suppose to be for us to show sympathy to the victims of the shooting. This will not be the only case, there has been many and there will surely be more gun related violences in future.
    Last edited by Override2Zion; 10th January 2011 at 01:41 PM.
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  4. #24
    Member Deyeno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Override2Zion View Post
    Do quote some to state your claims.
    The I remember the most, as the Tan Chor Jin (One Eyed Dragon). Link

    Killed for a Revolver Though stabbed to death incident involved firearms.

    Link 1

    Interesting Link From 2000 to 2010 - 10 incidents of Firearms being discharged or resulting in death by Police Officers.



    Cheers ....
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    I am not being over protective, it has shown in both AU / UK that gun laws have been ineffective, so what does that tell you ?
    That doesn't tell anyone anything, guns are not completely banned as rifles and shotguns are used for hunting, unfortunately they are the same guns used for killing people. We don't have machine guns or Glocks here thankfully or the whole thing could be worst.

    I have many friends whom are either LEA or Civilian whom have been in life threatening situations, and all attest its very hard to pull the trigger or any sane person.
    And where are these people again? Our cops here have no problem pulling the trigger at the chest of a crazed youth manning only a stick.
    Enlighten me...
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Override2Zion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    The I remember the most, as the Tan Chor Jin (One Eyed Dragon). Link
    Thats murder, we're talking about massacre here, 6 lives involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    Killed for a Revolver Though stabbed to death incident involved firearms.
    Its stated in the article, "This would include officers who respond to incidents while off-duty as obligated by the Police Force Act, as well as those commuting to and from their place of duty or training". They may not have been armed while off duty. And, please show respect for these officers. They risked their life and ultimately lost their lives on the line of duty to protect us. They deserve the utmost respect and shouldn't even be brought up for debate for such matters.
    Besides, there aren't anymore reported cases since 1980.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    1978 case? You must be joking, if we could compare that with what we have now, then Hilter would still be killing people in gas tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    Interesting Link From 2000 to 2010 - 10 incidents of Firearms being discharged or resulting in death by Police Officers.
    "WHILE joking around, he pulled the trigger of his service revolver, which he thought was empty. Former police national service constable Ahmad Sulaiman Perwira, 21, was jailed one month for accidentally firing his revolver.", you need to read the articles before posting. And what has police officers using guns as suicide weapons got to do with gun law in Singapore? Guns are authorised for policemen, we are talking about civilians here.
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  7. #27
    Member Deyeno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Override2Zion View Post
    Then I would have only one comment to make, they may be insufficiently trained for the job. You hesitate and innocent people can lose their lives. Officers aren't trained to shoot only to kill, often they would prefer to shoot to immobilize unless necessary. I am actually pretty interested in the country you came from, in Singapore we are brought up with very different set of moral values. We are trained to base our comments on logic, not just with personal opinions. Facts and figures tells the truth. You have yet to quote any cases of gun related violences in Singapore. Unless you could, all arguments on this issue are pointless.
    My main objection was your comment that *True but guns allow people to kill people faster, with convenience... *


    All I am saying is perceptions are different from person to person, unless you know how to use a firearm in a proficient manor, it might take 1 person 1 shot to kill, or take another person 10 shots to kill.

    Also in your comment above, how many police officers are actually proficient. Unless you are SWAT or a Special Unit within a Police Force, you will never get to practice more than twice a year.

    I know in New Zealand that officers whom are allowed to draw firearms, attending training 1 time a year, and 1 test a year, to remain proficient, but in that year, they will probably not touch the firearm again. So you can only imagine what its like then they are suddenly confronted with someone whom has a firearm and is prepared to use it. Unless you are highly trained, its very hard for the common police officer whom hardly draws his firearm, and try to immobilise a crazed gunman etc ...

    I dont mind discussing this issue further if you want offline or over coffee, I am always interested in peoples views.

    Cheers ....
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    where is Behavioral Analysis Unit when we need them???
    Objection !!!

  9. #29
    Senior Member Override2Zion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    My main objection was your comment that *True but guns allow people to kill people faster, with convenience... *


    All I am saying is perceptions are different from person to person, unless you know how to use a firearm in a proficient manor, it might take 1 person 1 shot to kill, or take another person 10 shots to kill.
    The fact that guns are efficient and convenient tools for killing stands strong. With automatic and semi-automatic weapons, one who intends to kill will have a higher probability of scoring a successful hit, at range. Walk into a school full of kids or mall full of shoppers, it doesn't matter if 1 or 10 shots are fired, the probability of killing someone is already higher, without the firer even needing to move besides his fingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    Also in your comment above, how many police officers are actually proficient. Unless you are SWAT or a Special Unit within a Police Force, you will never get to practice more than twice a year....I know in New Zealand that officers whom....
    Lets not digress into whats happening in New Zealand or other countries. Lets talk about singapore, do you have any information on how often our police officers visit the range? What makes you think our officers doesn't have more experience shooting targets then hobbyist shooters like you?
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  10. #30

    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Surprised to find a member of the NRA here.

  11. #31
    Member Deyeno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Override2Zion View Post
    Lets not digress into whats happening in New Zealand or other countries. Lets talk about singapore, do you have any information on how often our police officers visit the range? What makes you think our officers doesn't have more experience shooting targets then hobbyist shooters like you?
    Well you digressed when you said you want to know about the country I come from.

    Lets see Singapore for SPF, AETOS and CISCO,(excluding elite Teams) I do know how often they visit the range for practice, but this would not be in anyones best interest to highlight this here.

    I can let you know off the list if you think its significant

    Cheers ....
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  12. #32
    Senior Member Override2Zion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    Well you digressed when you said you want to know about the country I come from. Lets see Singapore for SPF, AETOS and CISCO,(excluding elite Teams) I do know how often they visit the range for practice, but this would not be in anyones best interest to highlight this here. I can let you know off the list if you think its significant
    I find it interesting to find out which country you came from simply because I wanted to understand your mentality, nothing to do with the facts and arguments. Bottom line is, if you want to stay in Singapore, you have to adapt to our culture. We Singaporeans are brought up with this mentality that we should not allow guns to be acquired by civilians and I don't think the government is about to change that stand. We've seen multiple occurrences of firearms related massacres happening in countries where they are easily available, and we haven't seen cases of those magnitude in Singapore, thats a fact.
    Last edited by Override2Zion; 10th January 2011 at 04:06 PM.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Override2Zion View Post
    We've seen multiple occurrences of firearms related massacres happening in countries where they are easily available, and we haven't seen cases of those magnitude in Singapore, thats a fact.
    I have never denied that fact. But whom is to say it wont happen.

    Remember the instance last year a Army Reservist was found with his rifle off camp with his allocated amount of ammunition around Orchard Road.

    In Singapore, as a civilian you can own firearms, but you cant take them home plain and simple. I could from a country where I could take them home and have them in a safe.

    I find the Singapore model very easy to adapt too as the security side is no longer my responsibility. As they say when in Rome do as the Romans do.

    I do respect the laws of this country, I have no choice as my livelihood depends on it. My of my friends from other countries, do find the gun ownership laws here very restrictive, but to me its no problem, at least I get to goto the range practice, compete both locally and overseas.

    Cheers ....
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  14. #34
    Senior Member Leong23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Override2Zion View Post
    Lets not digress into whats happening in New Zealand or other countries. Lets talk about singapore, do you have any information on how often our police officers visit the range? What makes you think our officers doesn't have more experience shooting targets then hobbyist shooters like you?
    Let talk about Singapore, sad to said that our police shooting standard is not up to par......i dare to comments that because i used to trained even with the STAR teams, and they are quite disappointing.....good but not good enough.

    Btw, dunno, don't comments.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Override2Zion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    Remember the instance last year a Army Reservist was found with his rifle off camp with his allocated amount of ammunition around Orchard Road.
    You're right about this incident. He stole the rifle, he wasn't authorized for him to bring the gun out of camp. Its a different case from allowing people to buy rifles openly with license.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    In Singapore, as a civilian you can own firearms, but you cant take them home plain and simple.
    Yes this is true, you can own firearms but you can't keep them in your car like people in some countries do. That makes it safer, since access to the firearms are controlled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    I find the Singapore model very easy to adapt too as the security side is no longer my responsibility. I do respect the laws of this country, I have no choice as my livelihood depends on it.
    Its good that you're appreciating the security that the HOME team are providing for us, both citizens and expats. We have no issues with competitive shooting and people who enjoy spending time at the ranges, we just don't want our family and friends to be exposed to the danger of guns in public. Peace
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  16. #36
    Senior Member Override2Zion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leong23 View Post
    Btw, dunno, don't comments.
    I was posing a question instead of commenting. Have to read the punctuations carefully to see the difference. The singapore army has decent P226 shooters too, not restricting to only the SPF/SOF.
    Last edited by Override2Zion; 10th January 2011 at 04:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by ninelives View Post
    guns dont kill people, people kills people.
    This is so true. Everybody just look at the difference between Canada and USA. On average, Canadian's own more guns than the Americans but they don't go out and murder each other.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyeno View Post
    Why do you say gun law ?

    Gun Laws dont work at all, look at Australia / UK both countries have gun bans in place, but it hasnt stopped crimes involving firearms, infact they have increased.

    Gun Laws only work to keep firearms out of the hands of law abiding people, criminals will always get guns no matter what.

    Look at Singapore, firearms are restricted items, but a person can still own them, but there have been many crimes involving firearms in Singapore, so tell me do gun laws really work ?

    Cheers ....

    Gun Law works very well here in Singapore. Possessing a gun illegally will land one
    in trouble, fire a round and one will get to meet his 'maker'.Of course members of gun clubs
    must register with the Police and am very sure if there are cases of gun related crimes
    here the police will be checking with gun owners first.

    You claim many crimes involving firearms right here in Singapore please provide statistics
    to backup your claim or else you are the one sowing mass hysteria. Other countries
    have their own rights and laws pertaining to gun ownership. Take the US it's everyones'
    right to bear arms as enshrine in their Constitution. It was reported that during the early
    1970s when US was in Veitnam the annual gun deaths at home far exceeds the those soldiers who were KIA.

    So to say that Gun Law does not work here is absolutely atrocious.
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  19. #39
    Member Deyeno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Override2Zion View Post
    You're right about this incident. He stole the rifle, he wasn't authorized for him to bring the gun out of camp. Its a different case from allowing people to buy rifles openly with license.



    Yes this is true, you can own firearms but you can't keep them in your car like people in some countries do. That makes it safer, since access to the firearms are controlled.



    Its good that you're appreciating the security that the HOME team are providing for us, both citizens and expats. We have no issues with competitive shooting and people who enjoy spending time at the ranges, we just don't want our family and friends to be exposed to the danger of guns in public. Peace
    My final word on this is that all countries are different, you cant say one law suits all as it never will, different cultures, constitutions, which protect peoples rights.

    Whenever an incident like this takes place, I hate the knee jerk reaction, that their must be more restrictions, because unless you destroy every single firearm, someone whom is hell bent on killing people will always find away.

    We need to look at why this happened, how it could have been avoided. In EU last year again many cases like this, but not ONE person involved owned the firearms used, or where members of any shooting organisation.

    In the end its always the innocent people whom suffer with knee jerk gun laws. With the UK / AU this happened but violence with illegal firearms has risen. So did the gun laws work No. So who really knows what is ONE perfect solution.

    So always PROS and CONS to every argument.

    Cheers ....
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  20. #40
    Senior Member Leong23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another SHOOTING case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Override2Zion View Post
    I was posing a question instead of commenting. The singapore army has decent P226 shooters too, not restricting to only the SPF.
    Faintz.....you still living in P226 era......I CAT Z liao also train in far superior pistol than that,

    Opps because you are a normal NS boy.....

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