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Thread: Legal Advice Needed!!!

  1. #21
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    Btw how late r u? super late?

    Yah guess u just got to suck thumb...well, the flim belongs to u and since they said that it is a pte function and the content is confidential, destroy it. No1 gets it.... Fair and square.

  2. #22
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    It is very simple. You have a contract with the middleman to fulfil. You fulfilled your part of the contract, so you claim your money from the middleman.

    It was the middleman's fault that he gave you the wrong time for the event, so liability for that lies with him. It is up to him to seek [i]separate[i] reimbursement from the event organizers.

    Get a lawyer, sue the middleman. If you have fulfilled the terms of your contract, you will win.

  3. #23
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    Should have not given the films to teh middleman or the organizer. That is your property. That is your bargaining chip. If all else fail then expose the film to sunlight and give it to them. Let's see them develop that.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperD
    Yo Brudder.
    If they play punk, just take it as a lesson learnt and destroy the negs & prints infront of the company rep and your middleman like RueyLoon said.
    And get others to shoot the film + prints burning ceremony

  5. #25
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    I think the organiser want to get free photographing service. That's why playing this kind of trick.
    Is it a small company?

  6. #26
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    Casey.. I dun mind covering that for free.. hahhaahahha

  7. #27
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    For the good of fellow photographers, I think you should publish the names of the organiser and the middleman so we would not have to deal with them. Those jokers think we are too free or what?

    So how do we protect ourselves?

    I say a 50% non-refundable down payment and a written contract.

  8. #28

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    Thank you for all the brothers who stood up.

    However, let be more gentle in handling this issue. Please pardon me for not being able to release the names of the organiser and middleman. As professional, we shouldn't resort to this.

    The middleman is actually the subcontractor. The organiser engaged him and he would look for free-lancer to take up the job. In that sense, the organiser paid him an $X amount, then he pay me $Y amount.

    The problem now is the middleman is at the mercy of the organiser given that the organiser is a big client to the middleman. Heard from him that the organiser always pass many assignments to him, so he couldn't afford to antagonise the organiser, else he would lose this big client. Hence, he won't fight for me. If he really makes the organiser mad, then he will lose the client. In order to pacify the organiser, he has to give in whatever demands requested by the organiser such as the films.

    The organiser keeps emphasising the I didn't report to him, so treated me as transparent even though he could see that there was only 1 photographer shooting. The story is that they have their own people using P & S digicams to shoot and they were happy with the results, so there is no point paying double, etc.

    It is like lor... in the biz world, you can't afford to make your big client angry. As far as the middleman is concerned, he is not concerned abt this incident but rather future contracts.

    I can't demand any payments from the middleman since the organiser refused to pay and the middleman **** me by not reporting to the organiser, so LL. You can't expect him to take out from his pocket to pay me. That will the last thing he ever do.

    I will treat this as a lesson lor... always report to whoever is incharged no matter how.

    What else can I do? I can't afford to compensate middleman losses should the organiser decided to stop engaging him, right?

    What's the point of engaging in lawsuits for small amount of money say $100++.

    Now the middleman is awaiting the final news from the big boss. Most likely is no payment.

  9. #29

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    can USM can sue them if they use his photos for any purposes. since he never sign any paper right?
    Objection !!!

  10. #30
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    Just checked with my dad and sis (both lawyers).

    You have a case to sue the middleman, provided you have a signed contract. How the middleman coughs up to pay you is his problem. He may opt to pay you out of his pocket, or he may elect to sue the event organizer. You fulfilled your contractual obligations, and you are entitled to be remunerated as per your contract.

    Copyright of the photographs is still yours, as the contract (presumably) would state that you turn over copyright of the photographs on fulfulment of the contract.

    It may only be $100, but I get so mad at people who try to stiff me that I would sue them out of principle and make them pay my legal costs. They would end up paying close to $3000-4000 when they could have just given me $100. But that's me

  11. #31
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    Your dad and sis are correct, except i would add that a signed piece goes more to evidential issues of the contract rather than liability per se. perhaps you misunderstood them and i think what they mean is that without a signed contract, it would be difficult to PROVE the case. nevertheles, if you can prove the terms by some other way, e.g. correspondence, witnesses etc etc, you still would have the necesssary evidence. liability stays the same.

    therefore technically kelvin, you have a right against the subcontractor. of course if the subcontractor guy gives ulots of work (much like how the main contractor gives the sub lots of jobs), then u may want to weigh that in your balancing exercise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amfibius
    Just checked with my dad and sis (both lawyers).

    You have a case to sue the middleman, provided you have a signed contract. How the middleman coughs up to pay you is his problem. He may opt to pay you out of his pocket, or he may elect to sue the event organizer. You fulfilled your contractual obligations, and you are entitled to be remunerated as per your contract.

    Copyright of the photographs is still yours, as the contract (presumably) would state that you turn over copyright of the photographs on fulfulment of the contract.

    It may only be $100, but I get so mad at people who try to stiff me that I would sue them out of principle and make them pay my legal costs. They would end up paying close to $3000-4000 when they could have just given me $100. But that's me

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by USM
    Thank you for all the brothers who stood up.

    However, let be more gentle in handling this issue. Please pardon me for not being able to release the names of the organiser and middleman. As professional, we shouldn't resort to this.

    The middleman is actually the subcontractor. The organiser engaged him and he would look for free-lancer to take up the job. In that sense, the organiser paid him an $X amount, then he pay me $Y amount.

    The problem now is the middleman is at the mercy of the organiser given that the organiser is a big client to the middleman. Heard from him that the organiser always pass many assignments to him, so he couldn't afford to antagonise the organiser, else he would lose this big client. Hence, he won't fight for me. If he really makes the organiser mad, then he will lose the client. In order to pacify the organiser, he has to give in whatever demands requested by the organiser such as the films.

    The organiser keeps emphasising the I didn't report to him, so treated me as transparent even though he could see that there was only 1 photographer shooting. The story is that they have their own people using P & S digicams to shoot and they were happy with the results, so there is no point paying double, etc.

    It is like lor... in the biz world, you can't afford to make your big client angry. As far as the middleman is concerned, he is not concerned abt this incident but rather future contracts.

    I can't demand any payments from the middleman since the organiser refused to pay and the middleman **** me by not reporting to the organiser, so LL. You can't expect him to take out from his pocket to pay me. That will the last thing he ever do.

    I will treat this as a lesson lor... always report to whoever is incharged no matter how.

    What else can I do? I can't afford to compensate middleman losses should the organiser decided to stop engaging him, right?

    What's the point of engaging in lawsuits for small amount of money say $100++.

    Now the middleman is awaiting the final news from the big boss. Most likely is no payment.
    Safra have a free monthly legal session, provided you are a member, if not go direct to Small Claims Tribunal.

    You never mentioned that you were told to report to the organiser in the 1st place.

    Verbal agreement is still legally binding. Futhermore, you went at a time you were told to go. You were not told to report to the organiser. You've fulfilled you obligation for the event.

    You should get paid.

  13. #33
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    I think you better get back the films ASAP, don't destroy them first, but at least you are sure that what belongs to you still in your hands.

    Tell the middleman that u will hand over the film once the things had settled.

  14. #34

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    by any chance, does this middleman go by the name of "weng"?

  15. #35
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    USM, In the business world, personal relationships with your clients/suppliers are very important. The middleman's position is not an enviable one although can be quite a lucrative one. Instead of resorting to lawsuits or threats, may I suggest an arrangement below to move things forward productively??

    Call your middleman today and discuss with him the details below:-
    Tell your middleman that you can forgo the servicing fees for this time;only for this time. Since the middleman is always getting new assignments from this BIG client, u can arrange with the middleman to give u a cut of the commission earned for future projects. Example:- the fees for this assignment is S$1,000.00, the middleman gets new future assignment from client at S$10,000.00. He gets a com of S$1,000.00. He gives u a cut of S$250.00. You can be fully compensated after 4 installments. On top of that, if your middleman "A hiao jo lang", he may even give u a small angpao for this unpleasant turn of events. If your middleman is reluctant to this arrangement, show him your middle finger(No pun intended) and u know wat kind of middleman he is.


    Y this arrangement may work
    1) U give the middleman "face"
    2) U preserve your relationship with your middleman and the middleman's relationship with his BIG client
    3) Private arrangement, the BIG client does not need to know
    4) Shows that you are a flexible person and not a petty vindictive person; very impt in the business world.
    5) Save on potential legal fees to be incurred


    The above is merely my personal suggestion based on my experiences in my field of work. U may have other more effective alternatives, feel free to explore them.
    Last edited by kongg; 30th June 2004 at 08:38 AM.

  16. #36
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    If you look at this case from a contract point of view:

    (1) The organizer can void the contract & refuse to pay as you did not meet the requirements of the initially agreed terms (punctual).

    (2) But they also do not have the right to confiscate the films because

    a. They did not stop you from taking the pictures in the first place. If they stopped you from shooting midst way the event or when you first started shooting, then you may face some legal issues.

    b. And since they did not stop you, they have absolutely no legal rights over the films.

    If I were you, I would also rather burn the film than hand it over. And black-list the organiser :P

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by USM
    I was engaged to cover an event. However, I didn't report to the organiser when I reached there as I was a bit late, so I picked up my camera and start shooting because the event has already started and it was kinda of difficult to locate the organiser as he/she was very busy.

    After the event was over, to my surprise, the organiser has decided to default any payment or liabilities simply because I didn't report to them. They used their own P & S digicams to shoot, and were happy with the results, so they said that there was no need for your photos anymore.

    LL, right? So I have no case to fight liao. I am the only photographer shooting the event. I did not see any other professionals there. All eyes can see. Worst still, I was even told to surrender my films to them without any demand because it was a private function, so they have the rights to all the photos even if they are not paying for them.

    Do I really to surrender all my films? Since they are not paying me for my service, can't I keep those films? If this is not the case, that's mean I not even lose on my service fee but also the cost of purchasing the films. Just not my day. Sian...
    eh bro, it is, DUN LET THEM **** IN UR FACE. although im not exactly very knowledgable in this case, i just wanna tell u that there will be confirm one way or another in solving this case 1! my support for u man!

  18. #38

    Lightbulb

    It looks like this to me. First, you screw up on professional code of conduct by being late. Second, you have 'chiau kuan' client. Unlucky!

    My take: Do not expect to be paid and do not push for it. As a result, you are not obliged to hand over the films(unless you are paid).

    There is no question of trepass as no one stop you at the function(I assume it to be the case).

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by kongg
    USM, In the business world, personal relationships with your clients/suppliers are very important. The middleman's position is not an enviable one although can be quite a lucrative one. Instead of resorting to lawsuits or threats, may I suggest an arrangement below to move things forward productively??

    Call your middleman today and discuss with him the details below:-
    Tell your middleman that you can forgo the servicing fees for this time;only for this time. Since the middleman is always getting new assignments from this BIG client, u can arrange with the middleman to give u a cut of the commission earned for future projects. Example:- the fees for this assignment is S$1,000.00, the middleman gets new future assignment from client at S$10,000.00. He gets a com of S$1,000.00. He gives u a cut of S$250.00. You can be fully compensated after 4 installments. On top of that, if your middleman "A hiao jo lang", he may even give u a small angpao for this unpleasant turn of events. If your middleman is reluctant to this arrangement, show him your middle finger(No pun intended) and u know wat kind of middleman he is.


    Y this arrangement may work
    1) U give the middleman "face"
    2) U preserve your relationship with your middleman and the middleman's relationship with his BIG client
    3) Private arrangement, the BIG client does not need to know
    4) Shows that you are a flexible person and not a petty vindictive person; very impt in the business world.
    5) Save on potential legal fees to be incurred


    The above is merely my personal suggestion based on my experiences in my field of work. U may have other more effective alternatives, feel free to explore them.
    Best advice in this thread. He beat me to it. Goodwill and a reputation for professionalism is priceless.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by kongg
    USM, In the business world, personal relationships with your clients/suppliers are very important. The middleman's position is not an enviable one although can be quite a lucrative one. Instead of resorting to lawsuits or threats, may I suggest an arrangement below to move things forward productively??

    Call your middleman today and discuss with him the details below:-
    Tell your middleman that you can forgo the servicing fees for this time;only for this time. Since the middleman is always getting new assignments from this BIG client, u can arrange with the middleman to give u a cut of the commission earned for future projects. Example:- the fees for this assignment is S$1,000.00, the middleman gets new future assignment from client at S$10,000.00. He gets a com of S$1,000.00. He gives u a cut of S$250.00. You can be fully compensated after 4 installments. On top of that, if your middleman "A hiao jo lang", he may even give u a small angpao for this unpleasant turn of events. If your middleman is reluctant to this arrangement, show him your middle finger(No pun intended) and u know wat kind of middleman he is.


    Y this arrangement may work
    1) U give the middleman "face"
    2) U preserve your relationship with your middleman and the middleman's relationship with his BIG client
    3) Private arrangement, the BIG client does not need to know
    4) Shows that you are a flexible person and not a petty vindictive person; very impt in the business world.
    5) Save on potential legal fees to be incurred


    The above is merely my personal suggestion based on my experiences in my field of work. U may have other more effective alternatives, feel free to explore them.
    IMHO, i don't think the middleman will want to pay USM the fee in 4 installments since he was not paid by his BIG client in the first place. I think the middleman is looking for a goodwill gesture from USM to waive his fee, or to discount it heavily. Assuming that USM and the middle man has a largely trouble-free and lucrative business arrangement prior to this incident, this goodwill gesture should not pose any problems. After all, the maxim is "share the profits, divide the losses". Taking legal action towards the middleman is quite a drastic step and may even land USM with a "claim-conscious" reputation (unfair though it may seem) in the industry.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

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