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Thread: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

  1. #21

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    I think Felix's experience demonstrates one of the dangers of posting in a more open forum, you barely know any of the people there, and people can hide behind the anonymity of their user names, to criticize or badmouth other people's work without repercussion. Of course you also can get good C&C from more well known people, but the signal to noise ratio may be very high.

    Over here, you can put a face to many of the usernames here, and people here generally post less carelessly.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    if photos are nice, its hard for nonsensical ppl to even have the chance to try...

    so i dun see a problem....

    so does this means if photos not nice, post here, if quite nice then post elsewhere ?

    different ppl different standard... u think quite nice, but other feel its just so so only...

    for me all i can say is if its not nice, it wont be in my hard disk very long, let alone posting it anywhere... different ppl different standard, maybe my standard very high i dunno...so i have not been posting anything means i have not many nice photos to share...

    or maybe i just dun have the time to go throught them...
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  3. #23
    Senior Member felixcat8888's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by CorneliusK View Post
    I think Felix's experience demonstrates one of the dangers of posting in a more open forum, you barely know any of the people there, and people can hide behind the anonymity of their user names, to criticize or badmouth other people's work without repercussion. Of course you also can get good C&C from more well known people, but the signal to noise ratio may be very high.

    Over here, you can put a face to many of the usernames here, and people here generally post less carelessly.
    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpot View Post
    if photos are nice, its hard for nonsensical ppl to even have the chance to try...

    so i dun see a problem....

    so does this means if photos not nice, post here, if quite nice then post elsewhere ?

    different ppl different standard... u think quite nice, but other feel its just so so only...

    for me all i can say is if its not nice, it wont be in my hard disk very long, let alone posting it anywhere... different ppl different standard, maybe my standard very high i dunno...so i have not been posting anything means i have not many nice photos to share...

    or maybe i just dun have the time to go throught them...
    flowerpot is right. If you want to post in the open forums, must be prepared to get all sorts of comments. including from those so called "experts" whose own photos may not be up to scratch but they think that their photos are better than others so they will comment, and shoot you down
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Felix, you have the tolerance of a Buddha, not many people can take the abuse you suffered when you posted your portraits up.

    flowerpot, of course there is no problem when you put nice pics up, but its not really fair to hold beginners to expert standards straightaway. Everyone has to start somewhere, and good criticism should be tailored to the level of the shooter.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by CorneliusK View Post
    Everyone has to start somewhere, and good criticism should be tailored to the level of the shooter.
    well said

    edit.
    come to think of it, if the criticism was well thought of and have "good" intention, it would be applicable to whatever the level of the shooter is.
    Last edited by clownpo09; 9th December 2010 at 10:52 AM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    i think one important point to highlight is the critique should be taken separately from the critique-giver's works.

    for felix's thread, i linked those examples because i thought that particular person's critique was extremely non-constructive and not helpful at all. so just making a point.

    that said, a food critic doesn't have to be a good cook; a football commentator or article-writer doesn't have to be ronaldo; that's something we should always keep in mind, i think. at the same time, a good cook might possibly provide more value when it comes to the process, same for the football player, etc.

    i think first and foremost, when taking critique, we must look at the purpose and intentions of the critique-giver. it is usually quite clearly demarcated by the style of posting, and the tone. previous postings will also point in the general direction of what this guy is out to achieve, whether he is genuinely interested in giving his view of things, or is on some personal rampage with hidden agenda, or just has had a bad day at work and needs to take out his angst on someone else by stomping on their works derisively without thought.

    next comes the quality of the critique.

    someone once told me that we should always thank people who take the time to comment, as long as they had good intentions. if this didn't appear to be the case, and you weren't sure why, give them benefit of doubt once. i have had people commenting on my threads because they weren't happy that i went into their buddy's thread to give negative comments - to the point of just nitpicking. i also have had people who just give short comments, e.g. "mediocre, not so good" - i let that pass once, and then when they continued i would highlight to them that their critique was non-constructive as there was no value added to me beyond their opinion, no advice on how to go forward. when asked to examine why they were doing so repeatedly, despite previous notes on this behaviour, they went on to delete every comment they made on my thread. beats me why..

  7. #27

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by CorneliusK View Post
    flowerpot, of course there is no problem when you put nice pics up, but its not really fair to hold beginners to expert standards straightaway. Everyone has to start somewhere, and good criticism should be tailored to the level of the shooter.
    then my next question is, how do you determine the level of the shooter?

    this is quite different from asking a primary school student to do quantum physics and telling him that his equations make no sense because they are too simplistic for quantum physics. or for a learner driver on their first day.

    yes, experience does count for something when it comes to photography. but you must also remember that people have different levels of aptitude. so if you are proposing a time-based proxy for the "level" of the shooter per se, i cannot say i agree. beyond that, i don't see any viable alternatives you could use.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by felixcat8888 View Post
    Yes, but not all of them are "experts". The one that gave nasty criticisms was also shot but the experts and he tried to sound that he is good until nightmare showed us that guy's own thread. I loved that.

    I was looking out for constructive comments and there are a number of good ones so I can learn.
    Can't avoid this sort of ppl. For me, 2 things to look at:
    1. Do check out on the guys credibility. If he has crap or only BnS postings, he is at the lower end of my regard for "good critique"
    Then again, poor photographer does not mean no right to critique. Aren't all photos, esp. for commercial purposes under the public/layman critique all the time. It can still be valuable, but maybe for me lighter weightage.
    His intent, through tone and words will also affect this weightage.

    2. Did the critique point on things that are reasonable?

    Posting up photos does not mean a free 'ham-tam' session from ppl.
    Last edited by pinholecam; 9th December 2010 at 10:43 AM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    then my next question is, how do you determine the level of the shooter?

    this is quite different from asking a primary school student to do quantum physics and telling him that his equations make no sense because they are too simplistic for quantum physics. or for a learner driver on their first day.

    yes, experience does count for something when it comes to photography. but you must also remember that people have different levels of aptitude. so if you are proposing a time-based proxy for the "level" of the shooter per se, i cannot say i agree. beyond that, i don't see any viable alternatives you could use.
    You have been speaking from the perspective of someone analyzing the criticisms he has been receiving, by seeing their posting records etc, I daresay you can apply these techniques to some degree as a criticism giver, to judge the level of the shooter, so that you can tailor your advice accordingly.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by CorneliusK View Post
    You have been speaking from the perspective of someone analyzing the criticisms he has been receiving, by seeing their posting records etc, I daresay you can apply these techniques to some degree as a criticism giver, to judge the level of the shooter, so that you can tailor your advice accordingly.
    posting records on my thread.

    different people approach different threads (based on the person) differently.

    i would not do a background research on people commenting on my thread unless they are unexplainably caustic.

    i think my main problem with what you say is - if you cater to level of shooter, does this mean that a good photo by a newer shooter can be "less good" than a good photo by a more experienced shooter?

    it seems a bit weird to have differing standards based on the shooter's level (of what? experience? still have no idea what basis you are using).
    Last edited by night86mare; 9th December 2010 at 11:07 AM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    The shooter's level can be based on a few factors, experience is one, his ability to understand technical details is another. I do think that this shooter's level that I am talking about is important when giving feedback, but of course you are entitled to your stand that a photo should be judged on its on merits, independent of the shooter.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    how to tailored criticism to the level of the shooter ?

    for the same photo if its shoot by

    a beginner -> nice try... keep the good work...... shoot more... wah not bad for beginner....

    a experience shooter -> this is a waste of time..., i see you have not improve, OMG what's this you trying to show...

    is that how to tailored criticism to the level of the shooter ?

    a good critique is whats adds value to yourself, giving pointers and showing what went wrong... these has nothing to do with the level of the shooter... it can happen to anyone or given to anyone...
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  13. #33

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpot View Post
    a beginner -> nice try... keep the good work...... shoot more... wah not bad for beginner....

    a experience shooter -> this is a waste of time..., i see you have not improve, OMG what's this you trying to show...
    so weird lor.

    i would just address the photo. why it is good, why it is bad. what my thoughts about the photo are. next time we have to label our level of photography with the photo?

    all these are personal comments that have little to do with the work!

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    so weird lor.

    i would just address the photo. why it is good, why it is bad. what my thoughts about the photo are. next time we have to label our level of photography with the photo?

    all these are personal comments that have little to do with the work!
    thats my point... how to tailored criticism to a shooter level ? i also dunno... unless its the example i give...

    u just give pointers right, irregardless of who is shooting, if i cannot add more to the pics, then i wont say much... simple as that... or maybe i can show an appreciation of a nice photo being shared with a
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  15. #35
    Senior Member felixcat8888's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by CorneliusK View Post
    Felix, you have the tolerance of a Buddha, not many people can take the abuse you suffered when you posted your portraits up.

    flowerpot, of course there is no problem when you put nice pics up, but its not really fair to hold beginners to expert standards straightaway. Everyone has to start somewhere, and good criticism should be tailored to the level of the shooter.
    Being a teacher helps a lot in your tolerance level.
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  16. #36

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpot View Post
    thats my point... how to tailored criticism to a shooter level ? i also dunno... unless its the example i give...

    u just give pointers right, irregardless of who is shooting, if i cannot add more to the pics, then i wont say much... simple as that... or maybe i can show an appreciation of a nice photo being shared with a
    yar, same.

    i think the only exception is when a lot of pictures are posted, with most of them being quite bad in general - in such a case then i will just give very general, quick comments... i think it's important to highlight to the person that these have serious flaws, but it is definitely not efficient to drill down to the details about why each individual photo has problems, since the issue is apparently a lack of knowledge with regards to technique or composition.

  17. #37
    Senior Member felixcat8888's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpot View Post
    a good critique is whats adds value to yourself, giving pointers and showing what went wrong... these has nothing to do with the level of the shooter... it can happen to anyone or given to anyone...

    How true they are
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  18. #38

    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    I guess bottom line is if you want to put the picture out for critique, ignore the idiots and learn from the pros. The Mods are not going to stop you from posting if someone criticize your works.
    But from the sample pool you should be able to find some really constructive comments from those who are articulate and willing to share and those who are good but not so good with words.

    Its like semiconductor wafer production. Begin with an expectation of lower yield so you will not be disappointed, throw away the rejects and make wonderful products with the small quantity that passes. Keep it going Felix!
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Hold a class? Or bring laptop to outings for immediate critique and after-action?

    Thing is, pool of pro critics is small... but varied, depending on who decides to attend.
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!

    Quote Originally Posted by airconvent View Post
    I guess bottom line is if you want to put the picture out for critique, ignore the idiots and learn from the pros. The Mods are not going to stop you from posting if someone criticize your works.
    But from the sample pool you should be able to find some really constructive comments from those who are articulate and willing to share and those who are good but not so good with words.

    Its like semiconductor wafer production. Begin with an expectation of lower yield so you will not be disappointed, throw away the rejects and make wonderful products with the small quantity that passes. Keep it going Felix!
    hehe. I will. Now need to find guinea pigs ermm I mean XMMs kekeke...
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