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Thread: definition of full frame

  1. #1
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    Default definition of full frame

    I came across this post in another thread and would like to findout what do you think of this comment.

    "E-520 belongs to full frame in its own right,any camera with lenses designed for the sensor is full frame"

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=11

  2. #2
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    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Then someone replied,

    "That is technically correct. But sadly, full frame means something else nowadays. "

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=12

  3. #3

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by ManWearPants View Post
    I came across this post in another thread and would like to findout what do you think of this comment.

    "E-520 belongs to full frame in its own right,any camera with lenses designed for the sensor is full frame"

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=11
    I think that's the 4/3 people's favorite argument.

    This will possible start the brand war over again. But to me, they measure their lenses as 35mm equiv, they have a 2x crop. If they consider themselves "full frame" like a medium format camera would be able to, then they would not use the 35mm full-frame standard as the reference for their focal lengths.

    Then technically, any APS-C camera using lenses designed for APS-C is "full frame".
    Alpha

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    Default Re: definition of full frame

    So is it right that if your lens says 14mm and is the same angle of view as that of 14mm in 35mm format, regardless of sensor size, it is considered to be full frame?

  5. #5

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by ManWearPants View Post
    So is it right that if your lens says 14mm and is the same angle of view as that of 14mm in 35mm format, regardless of sensor size, it is considered to be full frame?
    that would make more sense, but they have a 2x crop.
    Alpha

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    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    I think that's the 4/3 people's favorite argument.

    This will possible start the brand war over again. But to me, they measure their lenses as 35mm equiv, they have a 2x crop. If they consider themselves "full frame" like a medium format camera would be able to, then they would not use the 35mm full-frame standard as the reference for their focal lengths.

    Then technically, any APS-C camera using lenses designed for APS-C is "full frame".
    You are fast. Before I could complete my question.

    ok, I am not trying to start a brand war. This is the first time I am hearing this so am curious. All the while the full frame I know of is 35mm with 1x factor. Then someone, not one but two (somemore nick is in red wor), says that full frame is something else.
    Last edited by ManWearPants; 25th November 2010 at 01:11 AM.

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    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    that would make more sense, but they have a 2x crop.
    yes. So if taking the example of 14mm focal length. If the lens is 7mm actual and marked 14mm on the case. It effectively also produces 14mm. So you are right to say all APS-C on their crop lenses are also FF. Now FF really means something else nowadays
    Last edited by ManWearPants; 25th November 2010 at 01:09 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by ManWearPants View Post
    yes. So if taking the example of 14mm focal length. If the lens is 7mm actual and marked 14mm on the case. It effectively also produces 14mm. So you are right to say all APS-C on their crop lenses are also FF. Now FF really means something else nowadays
    In their case, it's 14mm actual and says 14mm, giving 28 degrees because they have a 2x crop (what they call a "multiplier", same banana).
    Alpha

  9. #9

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by ManWearPants View Post
    ok, I am not trying to start a brand war. This is the first time I am hearing this so am curious. All the while the full frame I know of is 35mm with 1x factor. Then someone, not one but two (somemore nick is in red wor), says that full frame is something else.
    About 2 years ago I mentioned about their 2x crop in their forum category, and (without arguing, just an innocent statement) said they're on a 2x crop, therefore in theory should be lower image quality than APS-C or full frame.

    For that, I got a warning, was personally insulted by their golden fanbois (who got no warning) and told never to post in that section again. They're very touchy.
    Alpha

  10. #10
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    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    In their case, it's 14mm actual and says 14mm, giving 28 degrees because they have a 2x crop (what they call a "multiplier", same banana).
    So it is FF in m4/3 context but half frame in 35mm

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    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    About 2 years ago I mentioned about their 2x crop in their forum category, and (without arguing, just an innocent statement) said they're on a 2x crop, therefore in theory should be lower image quality than APS-C or full frame.

    For that, I got a warning, was personally insulted by their golden fanbois (who got no warning) and told never to post in that section again. They're very touchy.
    How can you say others got lower IQ. No wonder you got a warning.

    ok. Now I get the picture. It's really seeing if you have half the glass full or empty.

  12. #12

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by ManWearPants View Post
    How can you say others got lower IQ. No wonder you got a warning.

    ok. Now I get the picture. It's really seeing if you have half the glass full or empty.
    I said in theory... And actual reviews confirmed the worse ISO noise and lower DR. :P

    It's like saying you should go FF for the better dynamic range and ISO performance, blah blah...
    Alpha

  13. #13

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Hi,
    IMHO, the DR and noise will depend on the pixel size, not sensor size, but the IQ of the overall photo will depend on the sensor size... unless you view at 100% crop, then it'll depend on pixel size.

    Have a nice day.

  14. #14

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by ManWearPants View Post
    So it is FF in m4/3 context but half frame in 35mm
    Err.. if you want to be accurate, it's quarter frame! Half-frame designation is taken.
    FF - 36 x 24mm;
    Half-frame - 24 x 18mm (the original 35mm cine frame size, and used in some half-frame film cameras, IIRC the Yashica Samurai and Olympus Pens)
    4/3 - roughly 18 x 12mm (1/4 the area of FF)

    Yeah, Full Frame definition is somewhat arbitrary, but a practical one.

  15. #15

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    I'm still blur about what I read, here or articles from elsewhere. It seems to me 35mm (FF) is just something we use as a reference, for comparison sake.

    Since the whole 4/3 system is built from scratch, I don't see anything wrong about calling it FF. Just that the FF in this case refers to a smaller sensor.

  16. #16

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    I always thought FF refers to the sensor size being 1:1 compared to the 35mm film, or at least same area if you wanna stretch the definition a bit for different aspect ratios.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: definition of full frame

    I kaypo here, I think the Full frame term in 35mm got it's name because when digital SLR 1st introduce, there were no lenses designed for smaller sensor, the engineer tried to imitate the 35mm film camera design and structure. They did a prototype and proof on concept based with a film camera, replace the film compartment with digital sensor. Then the 1st digital SLR created. All the lenses based on 35mm film SLR able to project direct to the sensor without crop.

    After years of research and advancement APS-C DSLR were out in the market, it is smaller and cheaper to produce. When we mount the lenses design for 35mm film on this generation of DSLR, the image projected on the based on the old design will get some crop. So everyone call it crop sensor.

    Then our "O" brand said they wanna redesign and create a new standard for digital SLR, the japanese just go back on drawing board, redesign the whole range of sensor, lenses and body. There you go, now we got a whole set on lenses that can able to project full image on a smaller sensor. So in theory 4/3 it is a digital full frame.
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    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by dannyfoxy View Post
    I kaypo here, I think the Full frame term in 35mm got it's name because when digital SLR 1st introduce, there were no lenses designed for smaller sensor, the engineer tried to imitate the 35mm film camera design and structure. They did a prototype and proof on concept based with a film camera, replace the film compartment with digital sensor. Then the 1st digital SLR created. All the lenses based on 35mm film SLR able to project direct to the sensor without crop.

    After years of research and advancement APS-C DSLR were out in the market, it is smaller and cheaper to produce. When we mount the lenses design for 35mm film on this generation of DSLR, the image projected on the based on the old design will get some crop. So everyone call it crop sensor.

    Then our "O" brand said they wanna redesign and create a new standard for digital SLR, the japanese just go back on drawing board, redesign the whole range of sensor, lenses and body. There you go, now we got a whole set on lenses that can able to project full image on a smaller sensor. So in theory 4/3 it is a digital full frame.
    that's an interesting point of view...
    I guess 'full frame' is just a name. Good to standardize so that everyone speaks from the same page, but unless some big standards organization states it clearly, the term 'full frame' is left to individual interpretation...
    Exploring! :)

  19. #19
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    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Quote Originally Posted by dannyfoxy View Post
    I kaypo here, I think the Full frame term in 35mm got it's name because when digital SLR 1st introduce, there were no lenses designed for smaller sensor, the engineer tried to imitate the 35mm film camera design and structure. They did a prototype and proof on concept based with a film camera, replace the film compartment with digital sensor. Then the 1st digital SLR created. All the lenses based on 35mm film SLR able to project direct to the sensor without crop.

    After years of research and advancement APS-C DSLR were out in the market, it is smaller and cheaper to produce. When we mount the lenses design for 35mm film on this generation of DSLR, the image projected on the based on the old design will get some crop. So everyone call it crop sensor.

    Then our "O" brand said they wanna redesign and create a new standard for digital SLR, the japanese just go back on drawing board, redesign the whole range of sensor, lenses and body. There you go, now we got a whole set on lenses that can able to project full image on a smaller sensor. So in theory 4/3 it is a digital full frame.
    Sorry bro... it just sounds like a marketing spin to me,.

    Just like how in Nikon DX lenses are designed to project the full image on the DX sensor... then DX sensor is also "full frame" by that standard...

  20. #20

    Default Re: definition of full frame

    Just remembered... Wikipedia definition count or not?

    A full-frame digital SLR is a digital single-lens reflex camera (DSLR) fitted with an image sensor that is the same size as a 35 mm (3624 mm) film frame.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-frame_digital_SLR

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