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Thread: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

  1. #121
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    I used to be a assistant and later a freelance during my secondary time and never cross into being a professional before, and as such I cannot comment on the toughness of the trade. Nowadays I have stop shooting for others and taking it as a hobby now, but it seems that the photography business is about marketing like any other business. My friends who study business always tells me that there is no pride in business, the thick skinned and better strategy one wins the most. It's all about how you sell. Even if you are a good nature guy who provide service at good pricing while willing to go extra miles not thinking because the client will come back next time or extra cash etc, the marketing sub-consciously kicks in because the some of the clients likes your service and will do what is unexpected for you, like being a public commercial by introducing more clients to you etc etc...

    The downside is that some marketing strategy are quite dishonest and people get con or hurt while some knows, other doesn't and live happily as usual.
    Last edited by wootsk; 22nd November 2010 at 06:56 PM.

  2. #122

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Calvin Klein Men's Steel Micro Crew Neck T-Shirt = USD39
    Uniqlo Basic Men Heattech T-Shirt = SGD14.90 (if on sale SGD9.90/USD7.60)

    I'm sure there are people buying CK but I see many people buying Uniqlo too.

    Is CK T better then Uniqlo T?
    Uniqlo undercutting CK?
    I wonder who is taking in more profit?
    Can CK get Obama/USA(CS) to boycott Korea(the so call undercut photographer in CS)?

    BTW: Controlling the CS photography ads price is against Singapore's law, it is call the anti-competitions laws.

    Wondering, how many "photographer" here wear CK ONLY?

    I hate people under-cutting me, but I wear Uniqlo T too!
    I don't see Uniqlo biz model as (this thread title said) "killing themselves" too.
    I guess that parts of life!

    I just remember, there are some store selling 3 for $10 at the market store near my place!
    Last edited by expro; 23rd November 2010 at 09:03 AM.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Interesting yet true.

    Quote Originally Posted by expro View Post
    Calvin Klein Men's Steel Micro Crew Neck T-Shirt = USD39
    Uniqlo Basic Men Heattech T-Shirt = SGD14.90 (if on sale SGD9.90/USD7.60)

    I'm sure there are people buying CK but I see many people buying Uniqlo too.

    Is CK T better then Uniqlo T?
    Uniqlo undercutting CK?
    I wonder who is taking in more profit?
    Can CK get Obama/USA(CS) to boycott Korea(the so call undercut photographer in CS)?

    BTW: Controlling the CS photography ads price is against Singapore's law, it is call the anti-competitions laws.

    Wondering, how many "photographer" here wear CK ONLY?

    I hate people under-cutting me, but I wear Uniqlo T too!
    I don't see Uniqlo biz model as (this thread title said) "killing themselves" too.
    I guess that parts of life!

    I just remember, there are some store selling 3 for $10 at the market store near my place!
    G

  4. #124

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by expro View Post
    Calvin Klein Men's Steel Micro Crew Neck T-Shirt = USD39
    Uniqlo Basic Men Heattech T-Shirt = SGD14.90 (if on sale SGD9.90/USD7.60)

    I'm sure there are people buying CK but I see many people buying Uniqlo too.

    Is CK T better then Uniqlo T?
    Uniqlo undercutting CK?
    I wonder who is taking in more profit?
    Can CK get Obama/USA(CS) to boycott Korea(the so call undercut photographer in CS)?

    BTW: Controlling the CS photography ads price is against Singapore's law, it is call the anti-competitions laws.

    Wondering, how many "photographer" here wear CK ONLY?

    I hate people under-cutting me, but I wear Uniqlo T too!
    I don't see Uniqlo biz model as (this thread title said) "killing themselves" too.
    I guess that parts of life!

    I just remember, there are some store selling 3 for $10 at the market store near my place!

    This is very true and interesting on the extremities of business models

    But clothing is a 'need', although branded clothing isn't a need but more of a 'want'

    However, photography is not a 'need', just like a painting in the house is not a 'need' too. These are wants. There are poor people who only have enough money to get married, sign the papers at the ROM office without even hiring a photographer, but these people are still clothed. They are not able to afford the luxury of hiring a photographer's service.

    Photography is considered a form of art, it is also a form of luxury which is not considered a need. It is true that $300 photographers create art, this name of art is also created by $3000 photographers. Its only between brands, standards and qualities.

    I guess at the end of the day, its up to individual photographers to know how much they are worth their crafts. There is absolutely nothing wrong to charge cheap and yes some cheap photographers do produce good work too. But if you know your work is worth a whole 10X mores, would you still rather be $300 or $3000.

    Even as a freelancer, or some call it the weekend warrior. If you work is good, instead of shooting 4 weekends of $600 jobs, why not do 2 weekends of $2500 jobs, you can bring you gf, family or yourself to 2 weekends of good fun and good food. With spare cash can even buy yourself a nice car, or upgrade to a condo, or have better equipments.

    I believe this thread is not to put cheap photographers down, but to help them realised the need to charge for what you are worth. You, even as a freelancer is still a luxury service to hire. Everyone bring the standard up together, consumers will treat you with respect too, anyone see the queue outside Louis Vuitton store almost everyday?

    Photographers who are charging cheaply, how often do you encounter clients treating you like crap, demanding and expecting more than they paid for. Want this want that extra, want more discount etc? Do think about it long term for yourself than be offended at what some may say about cheap photographers in this thread.

    regards
    Bryan

  5. #125

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumiere View Post
    Photography is considered a form of art, it is also a form of luxury which is not considered a need. It is true that $300 photographers create art, this name of art is also created by $3000 photographers. Its only between brands, standards and qualities.
    Please define ART! Seriously, what is art?
    Who are the people that "decided" what an art piece is worth?
    Buyers? Art studio owner? Collectors? or the artist?

    How many famous artist alive are selling their "art piece" at the price they dream of?
    And do you know that there are many "artist" in China are painting replica paint just to earn a few buck?

  6. #126

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Daniel Wee,

    While it's true, readily available and more affordable technology has lowered the entry barrier for almost every business, it's the people behind the technology that drive the market. Technology is just another tool and in a way, to help people increase productivity and hopefully better quality in deliverables and ultimately, maybe better quality of life not only for lowering cost. Tools are still dumb, but human are not. I think it's not right to compare just any trade with photography, each trade have their own sets of challenge. Every trade has their minimum cost of operation, after all who wants to run a business that is not profitable. it's also true that there are business for every segment of the market but there are also bare running cost, consistently running on bottom-line sure will runs into problem since there are no safety net involved.

    While many thinks the cheaper photographers are the alternative for the lower market, some are simply ridiculously priced... $400 per wedding including prints and editing and sometime with 2 photographers some more???? or worst still TFCD for wedding! The rising numbers are something why some of the pro are concern. Those who has made their mark probably have already up their price and those who are still staying low probably has a reason why they are still there. Expensive photographer may not be good but the risk involved engaging them is definitely lower than those budget photographers, tell me otherwise.

    Back to TS title, will cheap photographers only kill themselves? I think so! but can the situation be change.. wait long long!!

  7. #127

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by expro View Post
    Please define ART! Seriously, what is art?
    Who are the people that "decided" what an art piece is worth?
    Buyers? Art studio owner? Collectors? or the artist?

    How many famous artist alive are selling their "art piece" at the price they dream of?
    And do you know that there are many "artist" in China are painting replica paint just to earn a few buck?
    So, you think it's good to join them to set the new low??

    As you know there are many China replicas ripping off the original at a fraction of the cost, isn't that killing the industry. Probably same as the photography industry...
    Last edited by ilikeit; 23rd November 2010 at 03:12 PM.

  8. #128

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by expro View Post
    Please define ART! Seriously, what is art?
    Who are the people that "decided" what an art piece is worth?
    Buyers? Art studio owner? Collectors? or the artist?

    How many famous artist alive are selling their "art piece" at the price they dream of?
    And do you know that there are many "artist" in China are painting replica paint just to earn a few buck?


    Let me answer your questions. First you can read up the dictionary for the explanation of ART! and maybe you might still know what is art.

    The artist must first know his own worth, decide how much he wants to sell his work for in order for buyers to "decide" whether or not the artist's art piece is worth the price. The artist can price it cheap or expensive.

    How many I don't know but I do know many artist alive are selling their "art piece" at the price they are happy with. The renown photographers I've met are, famous furniture designers from Milan are, Musicians that I know are happy too.

    Yes I know there are many "artist" in China painting replicas for a few bucks. But shame on you to even bring up the subject of plagiarism and even regard them as artist. Creating replicas, its as good as selling pirated DVDs, so what if they can hold a brush to paint. So are you a supporter of replicas, pirated fakes and plagiarized goods. From a pro commercial photographer and now that you decided to be a real estate agent, how you like it if a housewife part time as your competitor willing to take only 50% of the commission you suppose to earn.

    I think u never read properly or unable to comprehend. I did explained that art can be cheap or expensive. Photography is one of the categories of art, like dance and painting. Art can even be free if the artist deems fit, so it really depends on how you value the work you produce, time and effort. Its afterall a free market.

    I apologize for being crude but there are just some things that needed to be put straight out
    Last edited by Lumiere; 23rd November 2010 at 03:22 PM.

  9. #129

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Nowadays Art is shooting a wedding couple from 50 metres away not knowing who is marrying who just so the frame can include a nice odd tree or a nice background, then photoshop the helll out of it.

  10. #130

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Lumiere,

    As mentioned in my previous post, I hate people under-cutting me. So I don't do it to other either.

    I didn't say I agree with replica, I said "there are many "artist" in China are painting replica paint just to earn a few buck?" (You see the quotation mark over the word artist?)

    Do you think these "artist" can't paint?
    Do you think these "artist" want to be in such a position if they have the choice. 有头发谁想做秃子

    I understand, you are very unhappy with people undercutting (Nobody does) but learn to live with it.
    It's part of life.

    *Please read my post carefully and do not put words into my mouth. Thank you
    Last edited by expro; 23rd November 2010 at 07:41 PM.

  11. #131

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    very interesting thread.

  12. #132

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Interesting discussion, but some people are making it overly complicated.

    It doesn't matter what any one of us think about the current pricing trend. Because it is definitely NOT going to change whatsoever based on what we feel is right, or what we post in ClubSnap.

    Prices will only be determined by market forces. Supply and Demand. That's it.

    So long as there is a demand for so-called "cheap" photographers, they will continue to exist (even if one quits, another will join). And if there are people who are satisfied with the work they produce, why not?

    For the rest, all it needs to be said is that if your work is desirable enough, there will be people who will pay for it. That's why people buy Leica products, isn't it? It's hardly a necessity, and there's a huge premium for it, but people will still pay for what they want right?

    The people who are complaining about undercutting are probably those who haven't found their niche yet, and are unable to charge what they desire. In that case, the problem is not your competitors but YOU yourself. This world has always been a matter of the Survival of the Fittest. So you owe it to yourself to upgrade your skills/marketing/whatever. Bitching about your competition does exactly NOTHING. Improve or perish.

    And for those who are overcharging for the quality of work they produce: if they can get clients who are satisfied with it, then good for them. Demand and supply at work again. But if they constantly produce unhappy clients, then it's only a matter of time before the word gets out there. As someone else already mentioned, Singapore is a small place. Even smaller considering the amount of information available on the internet.

    Cheers

  13. #133

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    I think we all digress pretty far from the topic. Of course, it is interesting to hear all the argument.

    The actual topic talks about if a photographer charge too cheap (this is a relative term) and end up have to spend a lot of their times working but realise there isn't much left to "live". Sooner or later, that photographer do realise there isn't much point of doing it all.

    It is about the amount of work that involve that might "kill themselves", not how much they charge or how much they earn.

    For sure, I know what it is like to work 14 hours 7 days a week for 5 months straight... it nearly kills me... regardless of how much I charge...

    I do questions why I am doing all these hours for.... sure, bank account looks healthy... but I am pretty sure, if this continue, I will die from some stupid accident from lack of sleep. Of course, I have changed it so I am still alive and getting more sleep and enjoy my work.

    Regards,

    Hart

  14. #134

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    i just know that if you charge cheap,
    they will treat you like you dunno what is the norm,
    and they will tell you to do almost everything,
    thinking you can be eaten raw.

    so if you want to charge cheap, expect to be treated as cheap.

    (thats what i had experienced.)
    never will i charge cheap again.
    (unless there are intangible benefits to gain.)

    something for the "want to charge cheap" to think.

    2 cents.
    Last edited by Fatfish; 24th November 2010 at 12:27 AM.

  15. #135
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    Fully agree about what he says...

    I started that way too.... and we charge more because we want to enjoy our life a little more...

    I remember when I first started, it was really cheap and I could not afford to drive (not in Singapore anyway)... and I was having fever and flu... I live in the east and had to go all the way to the west to do a shoot which at that time cost my client slightly less than $150...

    So that's 4 hours for commuting, shooting plus extra time for post processing.

    I quickly realise that is not what I want to charge and make things a little different. It is killing me... Sick, light headed, fever and shoot under the sun is a recipe for short life I suppose.

    Anyway, I am glad that I did and have rise my business to a point that I do not need to worry about how to get a job, but worry about how much free time I would prefer to have per week/month.

    I have learned to say "no" while not sacrificing on the "money which put food on the table" and enjoy the whole process a lot more.

    I have a lot more freedom to choose the work that I do and enjoy the process...

    However, to my surprise, I do get people PM me and told me that they rather learn the business the hard way then paying for my course... well, I was surprise that someone actually spend time telling me that...

    I do see opportunity at any different level of pricing in photography business, but at the end of the day, you will have to ask yourself... What is the reason why you are in this business anyway?

    Perhaps to make a few thousands a month for extra pocket money?
    Perhaps you want to enjoy the craft of photography and pay for all the expensive toys?
    Perhaps you want to achieve life what you wish to have and enjoying your craft at the same time?

    I have never look down on photographer who charge less than me or market rate so to speak... but I do feel for them as I know it is not easy... especially when things happen...

    I was out on a shoot and my client's boy throw the ball straight on my camera and obviously it drops and damage the lens...

    Of course, you could argue with the clients and ask them to pay for it... or you simply change another lens and finish the job well so they will continue to come back to you year after year after year?

    I am quite glad that the amount the client spend on my service makes the lens that spoilt during the session just a very tiny extra expenditure... I was actually happy cos I can buy a new lens...

    In short, ask yourself why you are doing photography and how you want to enjoy your life... then charge accordingly...

    Regards,

    Hart
    That seems to sum up the boom of photographers starting out and eventually wanting to make a career out of it, of course they have to start cheap. Just about every photographer I've met in person or online can offer paid services regardless of their skill set. Back in the old days digital photography was just a hobby or a part time thing to supplement a full time job, only the darkroom guys were getting paid for doing pretty much everything manually which considering the work seems justified.

    That said, once you've stepped into the business of making money off photography you're going to have to accept the work involved including the travel, preparation etc.

    "The whole world wants a bit of luxury but complains about working for it."
    Enlighten me...
    [Uluru]

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    I believe cheap photographers who charge below their cost cannot afford to do so for long and will unlikely affect the market as a whole (of course unless they have a large cash hoard). If they need to have a full-time job to subsidize their loss making venture, they will not be able to take on much clients too.

    However, cheap photographers who charge above their cost and are able to turn in a profit should be evaluated for their business model. These cheap photographers could have found a way to do things cheaply.

    The only cheap photographers that kill themselves are those who charge below their cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilikeit View Post
    Daniel Wee,

    While it's true, readily available and more affordable technology has lowered the entry barrier for almost every business, it's the people behind the technology that drive the market. Technology is just another tool and in a way, to help people increase productivity and hopefully better quality in deliverables and ultimately, maybe better quality of life not only for lowering cost. Tools are still dumb, but human are not. I think it's not right to compare just any trade with photography, each trade have their own sets of challenge. Every trade has their minimum cost of operation, after all who wants to run a business that is not profitable. it's also true that there are business for every segment of the market but there are also bare running cost, consistently running on bottom-line sure will runs into problem since there are no safety net involved.

    While many thinks the cheaper photographers are the alternative for the lower market, some are simply ridiculously priced... $400 per wedding including prints and editing and sometime with 2 photographers some more???? or worst still TFCD for wedding! The rising numbers are something why some of the pro are concern. Those who has made their mark probably have already up their price and those who are still staying low probably has a reason why they are still there. Expensive photographer may not be good but the risk involved engaging them is definitely lower than those budget photographers, tell me otherwise.

    Back to TS title, will cheap photographers only kill themselves? I think so! but can the situation be change.. wait long long!!
    G

  17. #137
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by ilikeit View Post
    So, you think it's good to join them to set the new low??

    As you know there are many China replicas ripping off the original at a fraction of the cost, isn't that killing the industry. Probably same as the photography industry...
    cheap photographers NOT EQUAL TO pirates. Cheap photographers don't pass off branded photography for something else. They work on their own brand. Hence, it is unfair to brand them together.

    Piracy kills lots of industry and is a known threat to many industries. Pirates in the photography trade are those who pass off your photos as theirs - now that is a strict no-no.
    G

  18. #138
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Well-said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
    Interesting discussion, but some people are making it overly complicated.

    It doesn't matter what any one of us think about the current pricing trend. Because it is definitely NOT going to change whatsoever based on what we feel is right, or what we post in ClubSnap.

    Prices will only be determined by market forces. Supply and Demand. That's it.

    So long as there is a demand for so-called "cheap" photographers, they will continue to exist (even if one quits, another will join). And if there are people who are satisfied with the work they produce, why not?

    For the rest, all it needs to be said is that if your work is desirable enough, there will be people who will pay for it. That's why people buy Leica products, isn't it? It's hardly a necessity, and there's a huge premium for it, but people will still pay for what they want right?

    The people who are complaining about undercutting are probably those who haven't found their niche yet, and are unable to charge what they desire. In that case, the problem is not your competitors but YOU yourself. This world has always been a matter of the Survival of the Fittest. So you owe it to yourself to upgrade your skills/marketing/whatever. Bitching about your competition does exactly NOTHING. Improve or perish.

    And for those who are overcharging for the quality of work they produce: if they can get clients who are satisfied with it, then good for them. Demand and supply at work again. But if they constantly produce unhappy clients, then it's only a matter of time before the word gets out there. As someone else already mentioned, Singapore is a small place. Even smaller considering the amount of information available on the internet.

    Cheers
    G

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by MRSAMO View Post
    That seems to sum up the boom of photographers starting out and eventually wanting to make a career out of it, of course they have to start cheap. Just about every photographer I've met in person or online can offer paid services regardless of their skill set. Back in the old days digital photography was just a hobby or a part time thing to supplement a full time job, only the darkroom guys were getting paid for doing pretty much everything manually which considering the work seems justified.

    That said, once you've stepped into the business of making money off photography you're going to have to accept the work involved including the travel, preparation etc.

    "The whole world wants a bit of luxury but complains about working for it."
    i think it is not the problem of someone starting cheap but about someone remaining cheap.
    G

  20. #140

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Goodness what a joke! After so long, this useless discussion is still going on? And some full-time pros are still sore about the issue?

    It amuses me that people say time is money to them, they charge a lot cos their clients are "up there" yet they spend their precious time discussing around and around the topic which to me, is no issue at all.

    I wonder, who are the ones with good skills and yet charging cheap? Can you guys post some of their pictures here please? I hear that complaint a lot. And ironically, it's from the pros who say they don't charge cheap. Why then do they need to care so much anyway? And spend their expensive time here rambling about this?

    I think there is a bigger selfish agenda. While one can say it is to raise the photography standards, wake up I say. That won't happen. It's a global phenomenon wherever you go.

    My analysis is that pros here cannot go even higher cos they are facing a bottleneck from those below them who are competitive and charging lower than them. There are many clients who are not always looking for the best. As long as it is reasonably good, they will be willing to accept at a few hundred or thousand $ cheaper.

    So that's why we hear time and again these pros come out to say CHARGE MORE, CHARGE MORE! Like asking you to do a stupid thing: Come on, rev your car higher, step on the accelerator, cos there is a long time of them waiting at the back. As long as you don't move forward, they can't too. But what they don't tell you is that in front of you is a brick wall. You are the scapegoat to break that wall for them. Once broken, they can then move forward.

    The downside to this silly rambling of "CHARGE MORE, CHARGE MORE" is that we are now seeing sub-standard photographers out there who jump into the business with little skills and charging couples. And unfortunately, since the latter have often little idea to judge what is good photography, think the photographer is that good when in fact he or she is bad. Let's be honest. We have all seen these. If you need more convincing, I can post pictures here for everyone to judge.

    There are many such photographers around. I see a lot of monkey see, monkey do works which are horrible and couples innocently (and sometimes foolishly) think they are the in-thing. That's the kind of standard we are setting now. I've personally seen works taken by photographers at my friends' wedding... only a very small handful are worthy of their prices. The rest, I would say, are trash, in the sense that, those who are charging a little, will be better off throwing their cameras away, while those who charge more should perhaps consider lowering their fees.

    So I re-iterate again, who are the skillful photographers who are already not charging more? Please prove to us here. Else, please stop all the nonsensical CHARGE MORE arguments. Are you barking up the wrong tree or arguing in front of the wall? You do your own job, earn big bucks, be happy. Don't go around telling others CHARGE MORE just so you can go even higher for your own benefits.

    If life were so good, why don't you tell the barbers in Singapore, Eh uncle, why you charge only $10 for haircut? Your work quite good. Charge $20!! Why don't you tell your favourite char kway teow stall, Eh auntie, why you charge only $3 per plate? You stupid is it? Charge $10 lah! Work 4 hours a day instead of 10 hours! You can spend more time with your children, grandchildren, relax at home, blah blah. What a crappy argument!

    Instead, I would like to go the other way and say, Photographers, CHARGE LESS!
    Or what you feel comfortable. The so-called "atas" or top photographers got their own "top clients". Their works so good right, and "smart" clients are good judges right? So they will never go hungry. Don't worry about them.

    I hate seeing Singapore becoming a snob and elitist country. Everything so expensive. Something so basic as housing already got problem. The next thing we don't want is financially challenged couples to take 12 month bank loans cos they can't even afford a photographer at their wedding!

    But you know what, I am very confident that won't happen cos if anything, photography will be a lot more challenging. It's saturated. Some of the pros know it, and they are scared and frustrated. They are affected, at least in some way. But isn't this the same case for many other businesses? If you cannot take the hardship, stop whining and change your job. There are many other "foreign talents" who will be more than happy to come here and be paid less and yet produce works that rival yours.
    Last edited by kiwi2; 24th November 2010 at 10:07 AM.

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