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Thread: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

  1. #81
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    although the cake is getting smaller and smaller, but there is still market for all . . .
    Shot more cos digital is FREE !!!

  2. #82
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    i believe that the lower rung of the market is there to justify my current price
    just don't compete for the same clients as they do

  3. #83
    Senior Member Anson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jopel View Post
    Quoted from some leadership training -

    "If business was a game, and it was fun why then do we treat each other as adversaries? If you are strongly committed to military strategies as your analogies to business strategies, then business is war. The field of business becomes your battlefield. Business tactics and strategies become entwined with deception, attack, and defence; there will only be win-lose for war is about winning battles, and battlefields of the mind. Unless you believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
    There is an old chinese saying: 同行如敌国.. haha...

    Curious does your disciples know of the commission ratio from the job referred from you?

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anson View Post
    There is an old chinese saying: 同行如敌国.. haha...

    Curious does your disciples know of the commission ratio from the job referred from you?
    They surf clubsnap. for sure they won't do it for others at that price.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Anson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jopel View Post
    They surf clubsnap. for sure they won't do it for others at that price.
    Haha.. Interesting business strategy.. give an old timer like me something to think about.

  6. #86

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    Everyone is going to start somewhere else... As other seniors had mentioned, they started up low as well and eventually managed to climb up due to stronger demands.

    IMHO, cheap photographers won't kill themselves as they might be just hobbists or freelances who still have their daily job's income. So, they can still charge $300 per wedding for years if they are really happy to spend so much time to get the extra pocket money once in a while.

    "Aiyah... I have nothing to do at home during weekends also... Just shoot for portfolio lor..."

    And bear in mind that there will be so many of them emerging from nowhere now and then since DSLR is getting cheaper and cheaper.

    1. So will the cheap PGs suffer from the new market? Most likely yes... but heck cares?
    2. Will their "business" be killed? Nope... because that's not consider a business for them since they take it as leisure income.
    3. Will it affect the industry? Maybe... since they will likely to consume another possibility of another full time low end photographer being hired. Face it, most of us might only need the service once in a lifetime.

    My point is, it will affect the perception of photography industry in low end market.

    BUT some customers come in with a moderate budget will not be looking at that market segment, even though they know some of the cheap/casual PGs can deliver equal if not better quality of jobs. So if you appreciate your work, go up and face the challenge... staying low will only harm your morale.

    Just my 20 cents...
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  7. #87

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    Thanks to the technology, nowadays DLSRs has been more affordable than before comparing many years back. With the growing ownership of DSLR, I wouldn't be surprise that almost everyone can shot with it. On top of that, photography workshops can be easily participated. Photography is moving into an open secret trend. It's becoming like..."You can do it, I also can do it..."

    I wouldn't be surprise that professional photographer's fees will be challenged. Photos don't lie. Just log into any forum. Take a look at the newbie photos, maybe not all, but some of them are already producing quality shots. It's a naked truth that is going to furbish in just a matter of time. Supply is getting more than demand. Photographers fees will be battered badly.

    This is why we can see lately there are many professional photographers diversify their business model from a photographer to trainers by conducting workshops. In depends on how we look at it, but if a photographer take it as a positive sign, they will have think out of the box in order to stand out. Or else they will just be another mediocre photographers like everybody else.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Anson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLens View Post
    photographers diversify their business model from a photographer to trainers by conducting workshops.

    Haha... that explain why jopel, is recruiting disciples and earning high commission thru their hard work.

  9. #89
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anson View Post
    Haha... that explain why jopel, is recruiting disciples and earning high commission thru their hard work.
    anyone recruiting disciples? i might consider for hols part time. pay is way better anyways

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by allenleonhart View Post
    anyone recruiting disciples? i might consider for hols part time. pay is way better anyways
    ok i recruit u. please buy 7D, 580 ex ii and 24-70 f2.8 L first and show me your port, i will pay u $15 per hour.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLens View Post
    Thanks to the technology, nowadays DLSRs has been more affordable than before comparing many years back. With the growing ownership of DSLR, I wouldn't be surprise that almost everyone can shot with it. On top of that, photography workshops can be easily participated. Photography is moving into an open secret trend. It's becoming like..."You can do it, I also can do it..."

    I wouldn't be surprise that professional photographer's fees will be challenged. Photos don't lie. Just log into any forum. Take a look at the newbie photos, maybe not all, but some of them are already producing quality shots. It's a naked truth that is going to furbish in just a matter of time. Supply is getting more than demand. Photographers fees will be battered badly.

    This is why we can see lately there are many professional photographers diversify their business model from a photographer to trainers by conducting workshops. In depends on how we look at it, but if a photographer take it as a positive sign, they will have think out of the box in order to stand out. Or else they will just be another mediocre photographers like everybody else.
    There are a lot of reason why professional photographers go into conducting workshops.

    In business, there are things that you don't do as professional photographer count the most.... if one want what one's competitor is trying to do in business, you will have to analyse beyond what can be seen and what is thought to be "normal" strategy....

    Recently, I have learned something very valuable from my clients... something I have not thought about it before... to stay competitive in the market is more than just offering great images and pricing, they are just part of the very small equation...

    As Steve's job says... Stay Hungry.... of course, this depend on your interpretation.

    I often think.... If I only do photography for money... everything is easier...

    Anyway...

    Hart

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    Recently, I have learned something very valuable from my clients... something I have not thought about it before... to stay competitive in the market is more than just offering great images and pricing, they are just part of the very small equation...
    Very true...

  13. #93
    Moderator PhotoProZero's Avatar
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    Hahaha, this thread sounds so much like "is a FF better than Crops??"

    Well, as a hobbyist and a customer myself, I have times when I need to engage event photographers. Of course, when i pay more to cover some "high-class" event, I expect at least touch-ups or PPs to be done. And chances are, when I pay S$2,000 - $3,000 kind of photographer, the end-result is well, not quite satisfying.

    Smaller scale events, I pay between $350 and $800 for 6-hours job. I sometimes get better photos. Sure, there are photog. who charge much lesser. But guess what? They are more willing to put in more effort, just so that you will recommend them to other companies. Now, they are starting to charge market rates. It was just an opportunity for them to be in the business. Nothing more, nothing less.

    It is not only in Photography, but in many other areas as well. I always believe in paying for the quality. But the trend now does not seem to be the case. If I can pay less to get the same quality of work from a freelance, why not?

    Not forgetting that in these days, the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer. Even MNCs I know are also cutting budget - They are requesting to throw in photography service for free! Times have changed and evolved. those claimed to be "professional" should stay professional and improve themselves. Let potential customers decide if they are really worth the money. It is not YOU to say YOU are worth it!

    As for the "cheap" photogr. One should learn not to undercut the rest. Stay competitive. Cos one day, someone else will undercut you and you will bleed as well. What goes around comes around.

    My 0.1ct worth of comment. lol
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  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoProZero View Post
    Hahaha, this thread sounds so much like "is a FF better than Crops??"

    Well, as a hobbyist and a customer myself, I have times when I need to engage event photographers. Of course, when i pay more to cover some "high-class" event, I expect at least touch-ups or PPs to be done. And chances are, when I pay S$2,000 - $3,000 kind of photographer, the end-result is well, not quite satisfying.
    There is no way one will bring themselves charging at this rate if the client is not totally satisfied with their work. Unless there isn't proper communication between the service provider and service buyer.

    Yes, some freelance photographer can produce great images, but the consistency can sometime be questionable.

    I am not defending anyone but sometimes, there is a good reason to make sure that the clients who is buying your service totally understand what you are offering instead of selling your work blindly.

    I never believe in "selling" my service... I always let my clients buy my service if they want... you will be surprise how things are different once you stop selling... try my best to give them all the worst case scenario and if they are still convince that I am the one they choose... well... the rest is not difficult.

    Regards,

    Hart

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by nelson-tan View Post
    Cheap photographers exist for one reason - they don't have overheads to pay.


    Moral of the story: if you are a good photographer, charge what you are worth. Because clients who need and value your services will pay for your photos. For clients who low-ball you, forget about them. You won't miss them because they will not be worth your trouble. From my experience, clients who start off by low-balling your rates, are usually nasty and demanding clients as well. Cheap rates and high demands? No thanks - I'll pass.
    can't agree no more !

  16. #96

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    that true, the shoot plus hours spent editing, some only get 10 per hour, why dun they go and work for pc show..... completely spoil the market.

  17. #97

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    it is a service industry and it's intangible. you can see the same trend in tutoring, hairstyle, or even healthcare?
    good for those who can still charge premium, for those at lower end...tough luck but it's not end of the world!

  18. #98
    Moderator PhotoProZero's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    There is no way one will bring themselves charging at this rate if the client is not totally satisfied with their work. Unless there isn't proper communication between the service provider and service buyer.

    Yes, some freelance photographer can produce great images, but the consistency can sometime be questionable.

    I am not defending anyone but sometimes, there is a good reason to make sure that the clients who is buying your service totally understand what you are offering instead of selling your work blindly.

    I never believe in "selling" my service... I always let my clients buy my service if they want... you will be surprise how things are different once you stop selling... try my best to give them all the worst case scenario and if they are still convince that I am the one they choose... well... the rest is not difficult.

    Regards,

    Hart
    Hi Hart,

    I'm sure you have been around long enough to know that various photogr. work differently. As clients, we only rely on the portfolio shown or through recommendation of others. Of cos, I cant say I agree with you when you say you dont "sell" your service. You already are "selling" your service in a way with your comments above.

    How do you tell the photogr. that it is not what you want when all's done? The event is over. I can't be organising another event becos the result werent satisfactory to my expectations. You can always say that you may be one in a million photogr.who will not charge the full rate, but this is not always the case and matters may get worse.

    Sure, freelance photogr.'s consistency may be questionable. sadly, "professionals" as well. You wont wake up everyday feeling great. It works both ways. Everyone will have their bad hair days some days....

    In all due respect, I would say it is just about managing expectations. being burnt once many times, has taught me to lower expectations. Also, because of previous experiences, company has now lowered photography budget to as low as $400 and a max of $1.5K.
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  19. #99
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    paying more doesnt necessary mean better quality. same can be said for photography services too.
    Last edited by jonathann; 21st November 2010 at 11:15 AM.
    Having the last say doesn't mean you are correct, it just mean you are desperate.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoProZero View Post
    Hi Hart,

    I'm sure you have been around long enough to know that various photogr. work differently. As clients, we only rely on the portfolio shown or through recommendation of others. Of cos, I cant say I agree with you when you say you dont "sell" your service. You already are "selling" your service in a way with your comments above.

    How do you tell the photogr. that it is not what you want when all's done? The event is over. I can't be organising another event becos the result werent satisfactory to my expectations. You can always say that you may be one in a million photogr.who will not charge the full rate, but this is not always the case and matters may get worse.

    Sure, freelance photogr.'s consistency may be questionable. sadly, "professionals" as well. You wont wake up everyday feeling great. It works both ways. Everyone will have their bad hair days some days....

    In all due respect, I would say it is just about managing expectations. being burnt once many times, has taught me to lower expectations. Also, because of previous experiences, company has now lowered photography budget to as low as $400 and a max of $1.5K.
    Thanks...

    hahaha... i know what you mean.

    I should have say, over-selling instead... Of course, by having a website, it is a form of selling... but the issue sometimes lies on the part where one is over-promise but under deliver and as you mention, managing client expectation.

    Sadly, I do have 1 client for the last 3 years in Singapore told me that she is not satisfied with my work that I produce for her. She wanted more prints from me despite being not satisfied with my work.

    Anyway, I wrote her a cheque and refund the money.

    I am sure, I am not one in a million... there are many ethical photographers out there and monetary return is not the only solution... some might do it differently. In essence, just "fix" the issue so it benefits the clients.

    Seriously, if I don't see any problem with my work and client is not satisfied, there isn't any point to even argue who is right/wrong. It is simply, a client who thought they like what I do, turn out that they prefer something else...

    No matter how careful you are in explaining everything, there will be a minority who will "misinterpret" what they think they want to what they actually want.

    If consistency is of an arguable nature, I don't think one should really consider them as "professional". It is ethical issue that we are dealing here.

    As professional, there are always 2 areas that I will consider...
    1. I will do bare minimum and expectation of client still being exceeded
    2. I will do the best so I can stand out in the market in terms of images goes.

    Like it or not, if there is one job worth taking, that is the job that should be considered last job that one will ever do and do one's best.

    That is why, I always say, charge at a rate that is sufficient for the photographer to enjoy their work. The more you can enjoy your work, there will be very less chance for one not to feel "100%" to be on the job.

    If I feel not 100% in a very rare event, I will just do area 1 which still allow me to run the business well and catch up on area 2 when I feel 100% again.

    Being contented is often problem with photographer who then bitch about they don't have any more business because, what they do is bare minimum and client is happy.

    Anyway... that is just me...

    Regards,

    Hart

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