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Thread: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

  1. #21

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post


    As far as I know, the higher you charge, you tend to attract client who understand about what they really want. These clients typically won't bother wasting their time, but they will buy services which have the "product" that they want.

    Clients who has money and social status are very smart... they do KNOW what looks good and what is not, at least to their standard.

    Regards,

    Hart
    by your definition, the lower u go, u tend to attract clients who know nuts about what they want and they will buy any "product" or services dished out to them?

    also, by your definition, clients who are poor and are of normal status are stupid, who do not know what looks good and what is not, at least to their standard....

    This is photography my friend, not neurosurgery. What's so sophisticated about it? If u like the portfolio and it's cheap, take it. You don't need straight As to decide if u like something. You also don't need to be in Tatler magazine to pick a portfolio you like and think is cheap. Selection is a visual thing...and personal. By assuming all good things are expensive and vice versa is...well..dumb.

    FYI, my friend's Z3 mechanic knows more about the car then him and the mechanic is much poorer. SO?! Does it mean my friend didn't know what he bought? or is his mechanic not sophisticated enough socially?
    dangerous times we live in indeed!
    Last edited by lancey; 15th November 2010 at 04:21 PM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Hey i may be cheap but i do know where to look for good char kuew teow and not just go to any restuarant expecting them to be good simply becos they charge 5 times more!

  3. #23

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    lancey, good point!

    Let me help those photographers who tend to claim they charge more cos they want more time to themselves. What they really mean is:

    "I am excellent in my work. I got class. Clients who come to me are those that don't waste time looking for cheapo photographers with cheapo works. They don't bargain with me cos they know my high class works are worthy of the price they pay."

    And to these photographers, these clients are so-called "very smart" because "they know what is a high quality product" versus photographers who charge much less, cos presumably, they give inferior stuffs.

    What an insult to photographers who charge less and clients who are looking for a more affordable photographer!

    Photographers, if you realize, must also talk well to disguise what they really mean. Many think they are "UP THERE" but instead of admitting it, cos that would make them look high and mighty and arrogant, they cleverly rephrase it as Well, I need time for myself. So I charge more so that only those "smart clients" will come to me to get my "high quality products".

    Sorry, I think it's better if they remain silent than talk like that.

    Think, people! Who doesn't want to charge more and spend time with their families, blah blah.

    But do you think "charging more" is an option to everyone? Silly, of course not. Every time I hear this phrase being used -- CHARGE MORE. And often, this comment is made by those photographers who are already established.

    That's like asking, why do our sportsmen here only earn pathetic few thousand dollars a month like any ordinary office worker. Why don't you ask them CHARGE MORE! DEMAND MORE! Why don't they be like Wayne Rooney, ask for 180,000 pounds a week? So can spend more quality time right with so much money?

    Come on, talk sense lah...

  4. #24

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    last time you can charge high because not many people know much about photography, like those sweet bokeh, post processing.

    today you can't charge high because a lot of youngster hold a dslr, they know a lot about photography, bokeh, school teach multimedia, they might even know more post processing method than you.

    if u think u want to charge high because u deserve it, then go for it. how much other ppl charge is really non of ur business.

    i know some ppl who charge low but they works are excellent.
    i know some ppl who charge high but they works are suck.

    fyi. i dont use camera to do business. just my 2cents.
    Last edited by juste_millieu; 15th November 2010 at 04:37 PM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by juste_millieu View Post
    if u think u want to charge high because u deserve it, then go for it. how much other ppl charge is really non of ur business.

    i know some ppl who charge low but they work are excellent.
    i know some ppl who charge high but they work suck.
    YES!!!!

  6. #26

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    to me, it is not cheap or not cheap.

    it is can make profits or not.

    if a budget airline can make profits more than a conventional airline, what makes u think it is a poor airline ? willing buyer, willing seller mah... it is business, the art in it is a tool and a product
    Last edited by Exposure; 15th November 2010 at 04:49 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    undercutting is a very powerful phenomenon in this industry. It makes people make public pleas for others to charge more...business is tough out there, but anyone who knows P from A can still do it. Still meat out there...and a lot of pee on the floor as we speak...

  8. #28

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by lancey View Post
    by your definition, the lower u go, u tend to attract clients who know nuts about what they want and they will buy any "product" or services dished out to them?

    also, by your definition, clients who are poor and are of normal status are stupid, who do not know what looks good and what is not, at least to their standard....
    I believe this is your own words so that is the assumption that you believe the opposite what I said is true.

    I have never said that at all.. I only write about my observation....

    What I know about lower end market (define by lower pricing) is the know what they want, they just don't want to spend the money that is all...

    When people see a good thing, people know it... but if they want to pay for it or not is another case. However, the higher earning of a person, they tend to be very focus on what they want and will go and get it... again... this is my observation.

    I am sure you can interprate what I said in the wrong way again... and yes, that is my observation and assumption.. Goosh.. I love CS.

    Hart

  9. #29
    Moderator nightwolf75's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Lim View Post
    Hmm some interesting feedbacks about this. Cos i was once told by a Mod that "CS existed because it wants to drive and motivate photography as a leisure and good hobby for all of its members" So when all this charging for advertising fees thing came about. I remember reading or being told again that it is to deter people from having that mind set that CS is meant for making a quick buck by means of "free advertising". So my only gripe about this is.
    Perhaps this deterent created by the predecessors of Mods in CS should be carried on to the service offered section as well.
    CS' original purpose was never about being a commercial platform. it is a sharing platform, pure and simple. however, it is perhaps inevitable that some more enterprising people decided to use CS as a platform to earn some money. we can't stop that. wat the Admins didn't like were people who did it ninja style, sponging off the largess of CS and (in some extreme examples) badmouth CS in online/offline at the same time without contributing back to the community. hence, our Admins decide to charge people who benefit commercially from CS so that the Admins can use the money to pay for the upkeep of CS. yes... someone has to pay for the servers.

    we do allow some people on some occasions to do some part-time services as it is not their bread and butter... provided that they can explain in detail/in person to our Admins that they are indeed doing it as a sideline.

    anyway, as a general reminder, i surfaced this article as some food for thought... not to encourage a mud-slinging match between CSers. so be nice.
    Last edited by nightwolf75; 15th November 2010 at 06:17 PM.
    If Life worked on auto mode then manual mode for photography would have never existed. ― Deeksha Mittal

  10. #30

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    I value my time more than money personally, life is too short...If God wants me tonight, I may not have tomorrow.
    I like this point, really. Its really true.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    I believe this is your own words so that is the assumption that you believe the opposite what I said is true.

    I have never said that at all.. I only write about my observation....

    What I know about lower end market (define by lower pricing) is the know what they want, they just don't want to spend the money that is all...

    When people see a good thing, people know it... but if they want to pay for it or not is another case. However, the higher earning of a person, they tend to be very focus on what they want and will go and get it... again... this is my observation.

    I am sure you can interprate what I said in the wrong way again... and yes, that is my observation and assumption.. Goosh.. I love CS.

    Hart
    i know what u r saying but it doesn't make sense and it seems like a redundant observation , at least not a very contributory observation.

    so what if the rich is very focus on what they want and will go get it? does it mean it is good? if it's not good, what difference does it make if one is poor and not get it becos he couldnt afford it.

    if a poor person cannot afford a good thing, he will look for a cheaper alternative. Does it mean all cheaper things are bad? No. So why assume all expensive things are good? if not all expensive things are good, why does it matter if one is poor or rich? In essence, your observation serves no purpose. U r assuming all rich will get the best becos they get the most expensive ones.

    Seems like an over-simplistic view bordering on a total lack of knowledge on human psychology in marketting terms.

    So when u see a rich lady approaching your shop, i assume u would assume she knows what a good photograph is and will get it becos u charge 3x more than market rate?

    might as well tell us the dog is the biggest animal in the world becos that's all you have seen walking.
    Last edited by lancey; 16th November 2010 at 03:18 AM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Cheap photographers exist for one reason - they don't have overheads to pay.

    A lot of the cheap photographers didn't start out with the thought of offering commercial services, but somewhere along the way someone wanted a job done, and the photographer thought "why not? I've the gear, and it's a good chance to earn some additional income." They're not sure of the commercial rates (and neither can they command the kind of rates without a good portfolio). So the end result is ridiculously low rates for the client.

    While it's additional income for them, the downward spiraling rates are bad for full time professionals who have to contend with higher overheads. Digital bodies need to be upgraded every 3 years, software are getting more expensive, and consumers are becoming more demanding (D.I everything!). Unwittingly the freelancers have damaged the market for the professionals.

    The end result is that the professionals have to work harder for the money, and move their skills upwards to avoid the lower end of the market. For the freelancers and low-balling professionals, they'd learn quickly that charging such rates is not worth it (it only takes one nasty/demanding client or a job gone wrong to make them learn the hard way). Unfortunately, nobody likes to talk about their mistakes online, and so we have new people who low-ball the market again, and the cycle continues.

    Like what someone said, clients who try to low-ball rates get what they deserve, and the low-balling clients and photographers deserve each other. If the client gets into trouble using a cheap photographer, he will quickly learn to use a well-trained professional next time. If he doesn't, then he will be good training fodder for the low-balling photographer who might learn that low-ball rates do not work out.

    Moral of the story: if you are a good photographer, charge what you are worth. Because clients who need and value your services will pay for your photos. For clients who low-ball you, forget about them. You won't miss them because they will not be worth your trouble. From my experience, clients who start off by low-balling your rates, are usually nasty and demanding clients as well. Cheap rates and high demands? No thanks - I'll pass.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    I think to each his/her own.

    Traditional work is where you convert time into income. It does not have to be photography. Bookkeeping, IT troubleshooting, domestic work or even cooking. How you determine your charge rate is determined by the price tag that you place on your time. This is for the service providers. You provide the service at a price that you are willing to get for the work done. Such a service is outsourcing. The concept is not new.

    Either you have the skill or the time, else you outsource. Why are people willing to outsource even if they have the skill and time? Because they value their time more than the price they have to pay to do it themselves.

    End of the day, willing buyer willing seller. Price is what you pay, value is what you get.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exposure View Post
    to me, it is not cheap or not cheap.

    it is can make profits or not.

    if a budget airline can make profits more than a conventional airline, what makes u think it is a poor airline ? willing buyer, willing seller mah... it is business, the art in it is a tool and a product

  15. #35

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by nightwolf75 View Post
    CS' original purpose was never about being a commercial platform. it is a sharing platform, pure and simple. however, it is perhaps inevitable that some more enterprising people decided to use CS as a platform to earn some money. we can't stop that. wat the Admins didn't like were people who did it ninja style, sponging off the largess of CS and (in some extreme examples) badmouth CS in online/offline at the same time without contributing back to the community. hence, our Admins decide to charge people who benefit commercially from CS so that the Admins can use the money to pay for the upkeep of CS. yes... someone has to pay for the servers.

    we do allow some people on some occasions to do some part-time services as it is not their bread and butter... provided that they can explain in detail/in person to our Admins that they are indeed doing it as a sideline.

    anyway, as a general reminder, i surfaced this article as some food for thought... not to encourage a mud-slinging match between CSers. so be nice.
    Thanks for Clarifying Nightwolf. At least now i understand.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    I love how digital photography has given the mass the opport to learn and master the art. I love the Internet for its power in facilitating sharing and learning.

    Why cry father cry mother? Cheap photographers are probably not doing photography work for a living. They only want some earnings to cover their expenses. Nothing wrong with that.

    Professionals with narrow minds should wake up and know that good photography skill is no longer exclusive to them. Stop condemning others who are charging cheaper.

    If so kiasu,...may I advise you to change your trade. Even amateurs and hobbyists have studio equipments in their home now or making their own montage albums. The level of skills in amateur is fast improving with some with skills better than the highly paid professionals.

    Why? Because they have passion to learn because it is a hobby to them. While it is a "job" to the outdated or complacent professionals who feel tired and bored.

    Face it. If you (the professionals) cant face the competition from the hobbyist and "cheap" photographer as you call it. Get out of the trade cos I can assure you it will be more competitive and more demanding in time to come.
    Last edited by muvouser; 15th November 2010 at 11:42 PM.
    I love photography but my photos suck!

  17. #37
    Moderator chngpe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    Quote Originally Posted by muvouser View Post
    I love how digital photography has given the mass the opport to learn and master the art. I love the Internet for its power in facilitating sharing and learning.

    Why cry father cry mother? Cheap photographers are probably not doing photography work for a living. They only want some earnings to cover their expenses. Nothing wrong with that.

    Professionals with narrow minds should wake up and know that good photography skill is no longer exclusive to them. Stop condemning others who are charging cheaper.

    If so kiasu,...may I advise you to change your trade. Even amateurs and hobbyists have studio equipments in their home now or making their own montage albums. The level of skills in amateur is fast improving with some with skills better than the highly paid professionals.

    Why? Because they have passion to learn because it is a hobby to them. While it is a "job" to the outdated or complacent professionals who feel tired and bored.

    Face it. If you (the professionals) cant face the competition from the hobbyist and "cheap" photographer as you call it. Get out of the trade cos I can assure you it will be more competitive and more demanding in time to come.
    Yes blunt and to the point.

    As a pro photog I would have said the same to the others pro who do nothing with his/her own competitiveness but keep whining like a broken record. Worst still even expecting CS to spoonfeed and do something to "prevent competition".

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    How do you classify a photographer as cheap? Cheap charges doesn't mean lousy output, Expensive charges doesn't mean excellent pics. A couple years ago I was shooting video for my good friend's daughter getting married. They got a high-priced photographer but looks rather young & drives a flashy car. Throughout the day I watched how he shoots - always at eye level & never come near to the couple. When I last shoot for weddings 10 years ago I shoot from all levels - eye, from the hips, kneeling & even at ground level. That's how to make the bride smile.
    On Children's day last month I took for a children charity. I brought down my brand new Elinchrom lights, portable charger & brolly & took 300+ shots for the children & their families from 9am till 5pm. I printed 300pcs 4R, 250pcs A4 with lamination, 20pcs of A3 with lamination & 2pcs of A2 canvas print mounted on foam board. Normally I can charge between $500 to $800 but I gave them all free of charge & I felt happy doing it & I will do it again.
    Am I classified as CHEAP.
    PS I did all the printing & lamination at home.
    Last edited by Tonistein; 16th November 2010 at 02:22 AM.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    To draw a parallel:

    When the "cheap" Japanese cars and "cheap" Korean cars first appeared on the market, the big-time auto-manufacturers were also complaining about them spoiling the market with dirt cheap prices and lousy products. They never took the cheap Jap and Korean seriously, and they became complacent.

    Today, we know that the Japs and Korean cars are up there. They stole the world while the seasoned pros stayed still and lamented about the cheapos.
    Therefore, the Volvos, Land Rovers and Saabs of the world have switched hands.

    To the pro photographer, I want to pay for your expertise, but don't just sit on your laurels. Someday, the cheap photographer may be teaching you a thing or two.

  20. #40
    Member dannyfoxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheap photographers only kill themselves, not the industry

    If I'm a photographer I will sell my PHOTOS not my TIME.
    flickr
    ... I'm not a photographer yet.....

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