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Thread: DXO Grades the K5!

  1. #61

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Hi, Only the sensor's performance scores 82. What about the other factors inside the camera. Do they also score high in making an ideal IQ which, though, is subjective is what we are looking for when buying a camera.

  2. #62

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by henry soh View Post
    Hi, Only the sensor's performance scores 82. What about the other factors inside the camera. Do they also score high in making an ideal IQ which, though, is subjective is what we are looking for when buying a camera.
    at the higher levels of camerahood, it is just a matter of getting used to it.

    this is what a friend who switched from d700 to 5d mark II for fun commented.

    the same is true for all cameras, to be honest. of course personal preference does come into the picture, but i don't think any mid level camera offers any great handling advantage over another brand, etc.

  3. #63

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by clownpo09 View Post
    somehow contradicting this

    in my opinion, the forced NR of K5(and other pentax DSLRs) will be a negative only if it reduces the detail of the image. otherwise, its a good decision for Pentax to use forced NR on high ISOs
    I was trying to be polite by not ruffling the sensitive pentax feathers....

    To me, forced NR always kills details lah... so it is a minus to me. Other people may find that acceptable if the details lost is not significant.

  4. #64

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by henry soh View Post
    Hi, Only the sensor's performance scores 82. What about the other factors inside the camera. Do they also score high in making an ideal IQ which, though, is subjective is what we are looking for when buying a camera.
    Ignoring DXO scores totally.

    You do get
    1. SR
    2. Easy interface to review WB/Filter/Picture modes settings and saving them in the new settings.
    3. HDR
    4. Good AF performance (unknown vs anyone but its certainly no slouch)
    5. True weather sealing
    6. powerful performance in small package for ease in traveling
    7. 5 stops bracketing
    8. level indicator and horizon correction
    9. Backward compatibility to all K-mount lenses
    10. Good user interface that can mostly be easily accessed with just the right hand
    11. Many buttons for fast access, so there is no need to take the eyes off the viewfinder
    12. 3 customizable W/B
    13. 5 customizable user modes
    14. Pixel mapping
    15. Built in invalometer
    16. AF fine adjustments for up to 20 lenses

    Certainly a fine camera by any measure.
    Last edited by pinholecam; 9th November 2010 at 11:02 PM.

  5. #65

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    that said, now the people who previously kept silent about dxomark when it favoured their brands, are now out in full force about dirty tricks that you can do to increase DR, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. funny how they don't mention the same thing in the past.

    quite an amusing show to watch..........
    sigh.... seriously you really have to lighten up about brands. Just because you love pentax so much doesn't mean everyone is so fanatic about brands.

    It is just a camera. I have changed brands sooo many times that I REALLY don't feel any need to defend on brand or put down another.

    I really was interested in the DR and wondered if it was real. I will question the D7000 but NOBODY has one yet....

    Amazingly I got some really constructive post in Dpreview forum. Of course, there is the regular brand fanatics around.
    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=36841593

  6. #66

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by poppyer View Post
    It could be much larger if you compare 7D with GH1 for example.

    And even in general case I think is larger then 1550 vs 1530, in my mind is like 1550 vs 1400.
    If the basis of image comparisons at ISO is rejected, then there will be no basis to compare anything. I have to agree that camera manufacturers do have a lot of leeway in specifying the ISO on the camera datasheet though.
    Last edited by pinholecam; 9th November 2010 at 10:02 PM.

  7. #67

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    sigh.... seriously you really have to lighten up about brands. Just because you love pentax so much doesn't mean everyone is so fanatic about brands.

    It is just a camera. I have changed brands sooo many times that I REALLY don't feel any need to defend on brand or put down another.

    I really was interested in the DR and wondered if it was real. I will question the D7000 but NOBODY has one yet....

    Amazingly I got some really constructive post in Dpreview forum. Of course, there is the regular brand fanatics around.
    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=36841593
    now D7000 is cheating us! fooling us that it can achive DR of 13.9! greater DR than a full frame camera can achive! how dare they do this

  8. #68

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    sigh.... seriously you really have to lighten up about brands. Just because you love pentax so much doesn't mean everyone is so fanatic about brands.

    It is just a camera. I have changed brands sooo many times that I REALLY don't feel any need to defend on brand or put down another.

    I really was interested in the DR and wondered if it was real. I will question the D7000 but NOBODY has one yet....

    Amazingly I got some really constructive post in Dpreview forum. Of course, there is the regular brand fanatics around.
    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=36841593


    Alan, coming in with all negative comments on (poor re-sized samples; not true non-NR samples; OBVIOUS NR on the sly; cheating; fake performance) over various threads (and even on your opening thread in your linked DPreview link) does not endear you to anyone. Masking it with 1 line of praise after a load full of accusations does not clear the air.

    You could be more positive about what you are seeing or adopt a wait and see approach and wait for official respected (in your terms) reviews and samples. No one is forcing you to buy a K5.


    I've already seen some ppl on the Nikon sub-forum saying that they have the D7K (overseas copy or whatever). You should go make the same type of remarks in that forum.
    Last edited by pinholecam; 9th November 2010 at 10:33 PM.

  9. #69

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Pentax sensor rating is so high even the at image resource comparable to high priced brands w its outstanding weather seal....but only thing is if you take a look at the lens rating dxomark still nikon canon on top. Does it affect the overall IQ...since the pentax lenses are way below the dxomark chart?

    Im drooling for k5.

  10. #70

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by pinholecam View Post
    Alan, coming in with all negative comments on (poor re-sized samples; not true non-NR samples; OBVIOUS NR on the sly; cheating; fake performance) over various threads (and even on your opening thread in your linked DPreview link) does not endear you to anyone. Masking it with 1 line of praise after a load full of accusations does not clear the air.

    You could be more positive about what you are seeing or adopt a wait as see approach and wait for official respected (in your terms) reviews and samples. No one is forcing you to buy a K5.


    I've already seen some ppl on the Nikon sub-forum saying that they have the D7K (overseas copy or whatever). You should go make the same type of remarks in that forum.
    sigh...

    here are ALL the post I have made in pentax forum for the past 2 weeks. Please read them through because I just did, trying to understand why you think the way you do. Cmmon can you honestly said I have a lot of negative things to say about Pentax. All I was trying to do is to educate a FACT that Pentax has NR on its raw files ISO3200 and above. I have been REALLY polite and sometimes I wonder if it is worth it because no matter what I say, people are still jumping at me.

    I did not even dare to post the 14eV DR question here because you guys will jump on me like a pack of wolves. Thus I posted in dpreview. And you take that against me??? common, look at the replies in dpreview. My concern is justified and there are some pretty constructive responses there.

    edit: ok, not all of you are jumping at me, but some of you are. If I have been impolite in this last post, I think you guys will understand why.

    ------------
    "have you a sample of good high ISO performance with fine low contrast detail like fabric?

    A lot of samples I see is just web sized prints with zero detail."

    ----------------------
    but at least DXO does detect the existence of NR in pentax raw files due to the different noise distribution.

    --------------------
    there is OBVIOUS NR going on with the ISO3200 pic. and maybe even the ISO1600. I think it is true that Pentax does NR at raw file level so you can NEVER turn of NR completely. Which is bad.

    Look at the fine detail at the blue regions in the top right corner.

    -------------------------
    Sorry, top LEFT... can never tell left and right

    You can check you ISO80 and ISO100 pics and you can see some sort of consistent pattern in the blue region which is probably there is real life.

    This pattern however is gone at the ISO3200 pic even though the pic is still very noiseless. So to me there is NR even though you set it to off.

    I think pentax do force NR on the raw files so we need to consider that when comparing pics between different cameras.

    Not that I am saying K-5 high ISO is poor. Even considering that, I still think that it is the BEST high ISO APS-C camera out there.

    But some saying that it is better than the D700 is a probably not true. But it looks pretty close to what I get from my D700.

    ------------------------------
    BTW, the DXOmark results for K-5 just came out and they agreed that ISO3200 and above has forced NR as seen by the SNR curve.

    The high ISO noise performance looks similar to nikon D90 actually. But the STUNNING results is how good the k-5 is at ISO 80 which I feel is FAR FAR more useful than ISO3200.

    The dynamic range is a mind boggling 14ev. I think that is D3x range.... wow....

    -------------------------------
    actually if you looked at the SNR curves, the k-5 is only slightly better than the D90 before the NR of k-5 kicked in.

    I think the amazing thing about the k-5 is not the high iso but how good the numbers are at IS80, especially dynamic range which is 14 eV !

    -------------------------
    I think that thread was on high ISO performance right? Most of the hype was on high ISO performance and DXOMARK actually confirm that 2-yr old FF is still better in terms of high ISO performance.

    DXOMARK shows that k-5 wins in terms of its ISO80 performance which I feel is more impt than high ISO.

    --------------------------------
    DXOMARK already confirm that pentax cameras do NR at 3200 and above so the SNR results are not accurate, ie artificially inflated. ie you have to look at ISO1600 and below for the actual performance.

    There are a LOT of aritcles on this so I am surprised that people still don't know about it. Even DXOMARK explicitly mention the NR by using the term smoothing in the SNR curves.

    That is a minus is what pentax does, which is forced NR on its raw files for ISO3200 and above. That is why I am skeptical of all the super clean high ISO pics people are posting claiming it is without NR when obiously you can see NR artifacts at 100% crop.

    Still the k-5 sensor is REALLY REVOLUTIONARY. can't wait for a FF version of that sensor.

    -------------------------
    ?? There is nothing negative about it PROVIDED you KNOW it is being done. If someone buys a k-5 thinking it will give high ISO performance as good as D700, he will be disappointed. Simple as that.

    I was just trying to educate someone who did not know about pentax forced NR. TsammyC DID think that the k-5 performs as well as the D700 at high ISOs which is WRONG.

    Yes I am a D700 user (and previously owned and used s3pro, KM7D, olympus E1 E330, samsung NX10) and I am looking for a 2nd body to mount a UWA lens for my travels. I am used to D700 high ISO performance so I was very happy to see a lighter APS-C sensor looking so good.

    you guys need to be less defensive about brands. I keep saying good things about pentax k-5 but all you guys jump on are the bad stuff. I am thinking of using the k-5 side by side my D700 cuz I think it is really that good and lighter.

    -----------------------
    I was trying to be polite by not ruffling the sensitive pentax feathers....

    To me, forced NR always kills details lah... so it is a minus to me. Other people may find that acceptable if the details lost is not significant.

    -------------------------
    Last edited by alantkh; 9th November 2010 at 10:57 PM.

  11. #71

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    fail.
    i think it's common sense why your posts suggests negative comments..
    but then again, common sense is somehow subjective.. just as to which camera is better that the other.
    Last edited by clownpo09; 9th November 2010 at 11:29 PM.

  12. #72

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    sigh.... seriously you really have to lighten up about brands. Just because you love pentax so much doesn't mean everyone is so fanatic about brands.
    awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

    you sound like master zenten.

    group hug, anyone?

  13. #73

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    I was trying to be polite by not ruffling the sensitive pentax feathers....

    To me, forced NR always kills details lah... so it is a minus to me. Other people may find that acceptable if the details lost is not significant.

    -------------------------
    at the end of the day, i agree with what doodah say.

    sitting around looking at numbers, trying to make some cow sense out of it.... and taking it too seriously, and talking nonstop about a versus b, b versus c, c versus d.

    at the end of the day, a, b, c, d all can shoot picture.

    i'm more amused than anything else - some people have reached the point of no return, where their days revolve around putting two different camera brands and models on a balance and seeing which one sinks more.

    is it that important whether it is 14, 16, 18 dr? if you like it, just get it. don't like, just don't like. telling everyone that 14 ev is not 14 ev, i don't know. my camera doesn't seem to produce pictures that repeat themselves that they are 14 ev. it is people who keep drumming on about all these things.

  14. #74

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by pinholecam View Post

    You could be more positive about what you are seeing or adopt a wait and see approach and wait for official respected (in your terms) reviews and samples. No one is forcing you to buy a K5.
    no please,

    i think he will be another one who will complain about pentax viewfinders in bright light.

  15. #75

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    sigh...

    here are ALL the post I have made in pentax forum for the past 2 weeks. Please read them through because I just did, trying to understand why you think the way you do. Cmmon can you honestly said I have a lot of negative things to say about Pentax. All I was trying to do is to educate a FACT that Pentax has NR on its raw files ISO3200 and above. I have been REALLY polite and sometimes I wonder if it is worth it because no matter what I say, people are still jumping at me.

    I did not even dare to post the 14eV DR question here because you guys will jump on me like a pack of wolves. Thus I posted in dpreview. And you take that against me??? common, look at the replies in dpreview. My concern is justified and there are some pretty constructive responses there.

    edit: ok, not all of you are jumping at me, but some of you are. If I have been impolite in this last post, I think you guys will understand why.

    ------------
    "have you a sample of good high ISO performance with fine low contrast detail like fabric?

    A lot of samples I see is just web sized prints with zero detail."

    ----------------------
    but at least DXO does detect the existence of NR in pentax raw files due to the different noise distribution.

    --------------------
    there is OBVIOUS NR going on with the ISO3200 pic. and maybe even the ISO1600. I think it is true that Pentax does NR at raw file level so you can NEVER turn of NR completely. Which is bad.

    Look at the fine detail at the blue regions in the top right corner.

    -------------------------
    Sorry, top LEFT... can never tell left and right

    You can check you ISO80 and ISO100 pics and you can see some sort of consistent pattern in the blue region which is probably there is real life.

    This pattern however is gone at the ISO3200 pic even though the pic is still very noiseless. So to me there is NR even though you set it to off.

    I think pentax do force NR on the raw files so we need to consider that when comparing pics between different cameras.

    Not that I am saying K-5 high ISO is poor. Even considering that, I still think that it is the BEST high ISO APS-C camera out there.

    But some saying that it is better than the D700 is a probably not true. But it looks pretty close to what I get from my D700.

    ------------------------------
    BTW, the DXOmark results for K-5 just came out and they agreed that ISO3200 and above has forced NR as seen by the SNR curve.

    The high ISO noise performance looks similar to nikon D90 actually. But the STUNNING results is how good the k-5 is at ISO 80 which I feel is FAR FAR more useful than ISO3200.

    The dynamic range is a mind boggling 14ev. I think that is D3x range.... wow....

    -------------------------------
    actually if you looked at the SNR curves, the k-5 is only slightly better than the D90 before the NR of k-5 kicked in.

    I think the amazing thing about the k-5 is not the high iso but how good the numbers are at IS80, especially dynamic range which is 14 eV !

    -------------------------
    I think that thread was on high ISO performance right? Most of the hype was on high ISO performance and DXOMARK actually confirm that 2-yr old FF is still better in terms of high ISO performance.

    DXOMARK shows that k-5 wins in terms of its ISO80 performance which I feel is more impt than high ISO.

    --------------------------------
    DXOMARK already confirm that pentax cameras do NR at 3200 and above so the SNR results are not accurate, ie artificially inflated. ie you have to look at ISO1600 and below for the actual performance.

    There are a LOT of aritcles on this so I am surprised that people still don't know about it. Even DXOMARK explicitly mention the NR by using the term smoothing in the SNR curves.

    That is a minus is what pentax does, which is forced NR on its raw files for ISO3200 and above. That is why I am skeptical of all the super clean high ISO pics people are posting claiming it is without NR when obiously you can see NR artifacts at 100% crop.

    Still the k-5 sensor is REALLY REVOLUTIONARY. can't wait for a FF version of that sensor.

    -------------------------
    ?? There is nothing negative about it PROVIDED you KNOW it is being done. If someone buys a k-5 thinking it will give high ISO performance as good as D700, he will be disappointed. Simple as that.

    I was just trying to educate someone who did not know about pentax forced NR. TsammyC DID think that the k-5 performs as well as the D700 at high ISOs which is WRONG.

    Yes I am a D700 user (and previously owned and used s3pro, KM7D, olympus E1 E330, samsung NX10) and I am looking for a 2nd body to mount a UWA lens for my travels. I am used to D700 high ISO performance so I was very happy to see a lighter APS-C sensor looking so good.

    you guys need to be less defensive about brands. I keep saying good things about pentax k-5 but all you guys jump on are the bad stuff. I am thinking of using the k-5 side by side my D700 cuz I think it is really that good and lighter.

    -----------------------
    I was trying to be polite by not ruffling the sensitive pentax feathers....

    To me, forced NR always kills details lah... so it is a minus to me. Other people may find that acceptable if the details lost is not significant.

    -------------------------


    Many postings. Same point to drive at.


    How many of the postings have wordings in BOLD?
    Friendly?
    Sadly, not in my books.


    As I said, you can try your luck at the Nikon sub-forum.
    Last edited by pinholecam; 9th November 2010 at 11:17 PM.

  16. #76

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    at the end of the day, i agree with what doodah say.

    sitting around looking at numbers, trying to make some cow sense out of it.... and taking it too seriously, and talking nonstop about a versus b, b versus c, c versus d.

    at the end of the day, a, b, c, d all can shoot picture.

    i'm more amused than anything else - some people have reached the point of no return, where their days revolve around putting two different camera brands and models on a balance and seeing which one sinks more.

    is it that important whether it is 14, 16, 18 dr? if you like it, just get it. don't like, just don't like. telling everyone that 14 ev is not 14 ev, i don't know. my camera doesn't seem to produce pictures that repeat themselves that they are 14 ev. it is people who keep drumming on about all these things.
    err... do you know how many times you have repeated this point in CS the past few days? And how many times did I mention 14eV is not 14eV in CS? common... be fair lah, you are the one who keep going on and on and on and on...

    Then why did you buy k-r? too much money?
    Last edited by alantkh; 9th November 2010 at 11:33 PM.

  17. #77

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    err... do you know how many times you have repeated this point in CS the past few days? And how many times did I mention 14eV in CS? common... be fair lah, you are the one who keep going on and on and on and on...

    Then why did you buy k-r? too much money?
    yar, got too much money.

    but not enough to try every single brand out there...

    if you must know, the primary reason why i bought the k-r is because it gives me a 2 minute exposure immediately. whereas dark frame subtraction cannot be switched off on the k20d. if pentax would have been kind enough to give me the firmware update to allow this, since the time i started literally whining about this nonstop in pentax section (you can ask the rest)... i would not have changed my camera for sure.

    tell you, just stop sitting around and looking at numbers, it is pointless. at the end of the day, you will be proud of pictures not because your camera has a very nice DR (whether or not it is real, fake, or made out of monkey butts)... but because they are nice.

    go and take nice pictures of your wife, family, and landscapes.

    sitting around and talking about numbers is fun for maybe 10 seconds, after that it gets a bit retarded.
    Last edited by night86mare; 9th November 2010 at 11:37 PM.

  18. #78

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by pinholecam View Post
    Many postings. Same point to drive at.


    How many of the postings have wordings in BOLD?
    Friendly?
    Sadly, not in my books.


    As I said, you can try your luck at the Nikon sub-forum.
    err... Even if you lift them out of context, most of the wordings in Bold are just factual statements about pentax method of NR. Mainly because someone (minority) did not know/believe that so I had to explain. Something which I am sure most pentax users know (pentax has RAW NR at ISO3200) for a fact. But I guess this is your opinon so there is nothing to argue about.

    Please do not consider my statement "pentax has NR at ISO3200" as unfriendly....

  19. #79

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    yar, got too much money.

    but not enough to try every single brand out there...

    tell you, just stop sitting around and looking at numbers, it is pointless. at the end of the day, you will be proud of pictures not because your camera has a very nice DR (whether or not it is real, fake, or made out of monkey butts)... but because they are nice.

    go and take nice pictures of your wife, family, and landscapes.

    sitting around and talking about numbers is fun for maybe 10 seconds, after that it gets a bit retarded.
    agreed. Actually all I wanted to do at first was to point out that k-5 has raw NR at ISO3200 so one has to be careful when doing his comparison. There are some pentax users who are unaware of this fact. Not that it is very impt but useful to know nonetheless.

    Oh and there are different kinds of people in CS. Some are photographers, while other are gear heads who shoot brickwalls all day. I am gear head 95% of the time.

  20. #80

    Default Re: DXO Grades the K5!

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    ..at the end of the day, you will be proud of pictures not because your camera has a very nice DR (whether or not it is real, fake, or made out of monkey butts)... but because they are nice.
    nah, get real. you'll be more proud if your pictures were made out of monkey butts

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