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Thread: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

  1. #141
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    If another country offer me a job that is 5 times my current pay, will i go, yes off course... i will of course try to bring my family along, but at the same time, i will

    1) try to have regular trips back to visit my friends and family...
    2) miss local food
    3) check on local news

    will i want to be back in SIN for good in the future... hell yes of course...

    how many oversea students if given a choice actually choose to stay put , i think not many... Cos home is where our heart is...

    Most of my colleagues are mostly unlocal, and most are happy to be back at their country of birth for visits... it tells you where the heart truely belongs...

    if i myself is working in another country, i would be very happy to be back visiting as well...

    Just ask urself will you want to be back 1 day if you are working in another country...

    if i myself never wish to stay put in another country, i dunno how i can expect FT to do the same...

    ultimately our heart is where we are born...
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  2. #142
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by allenleonhart View Post
    i'm fine with FTs who come here to STAY. read: to STAY.

    what i am not fine is the FTs who earn liao go back tiong kok.
    It's easy for you to say STAY, because you are not in their shoes.

    I guess you should ask yourselves why FTs come here in the first place. But let me guess, you already know.. but you just can't accept it. Why? Coz you are not in their shoes.

    :Later,

  3. #143

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by alantkh View Post
    how about because the managers are foreigners and they like to hire their own nation people?

    Did you ever step into one of our research insitutes like Astar? I think only 10% of the people there is singaporeans. When the ratio skew to such a state, I don't think the FT are winning in terms of merit alone. Politics will come to play. Singaporeans will dislike working in an environment with 90% FT. A china manager usually has china subordinates.

    What do you say about this?
    No I've never been to Astar but i work for a large MNC in the financial sector. I have hired people before and i don't look at nationality or asking pay (since not my money). I look for someone who has the right experience, perform well during the interview and that I feel I can work well with. More than half my department are FTs not because the hiring manager is biased but because locals are consistently out performed by FTs. 2 candidates one from NTU the other from Oxford both will be paid the same amount who will you hire? If due to a sense of patriotism I hire all locals that would mean my team won't be as strong as it could be. In the end I suffer.

    Btw if you go for an interview and later find out that you lose out to a FT what is your immediate response? Will you blame everyone else or will you look at where you went wrong (could be **** up during interview, dressing got problem, salary expectation). Yes some managers will be biased towards their own country mates but not all the time. Maybe 5 out 10 times. But what I sense now is that when a local fails to get a job, 10 out of 10 times he will blame it on racism, cheap labor etc etc.....

  4. #144

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinoy View Post
    It's easy for you to say STAY, because you are not in their shoes.

    I guess you should ask yourselves why FTs come here in the first place. But let me guess, you already know.. but you just can't accept it. Why? Coz you are not in their shoes.

    :Later,
    Yeah that was what I was trying to get at. None of us here have a problem if they are here to stay. But the problem is that it is hard to get them to stay.

  5. #145

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinoy View Post
    It's easy for you to say STAY, because you are not in their shoes.

    I guess you should ask yourselves why FTs come here in the first place. But let me guess, you already know.. but you just can't accept it. Why? Coz you are not in their shoes.

    :Later,
    Look here, if we are to understand and sympathize every single being in this world, then would that make us a Saint? We're not...

    We're mere citizen of Singapore, we are borned here, we are living here, some of us might not be.... As long as we're living here, we should care about ourselves. Why should we ask why FT come here in the first place? And why bother asking this question when the more important question "why they leave here after coming here, along with the benefits and money?"

    Will I be asked "put yourself in his shoe" if a thief comes into my house, rob my money off, and get scot-free? Ask yourself this question.

    We know it's beneficial for foreigners who wish to make themselves home here. I don't believe there's a large no. of people who won't welcome them. However, it's a fact that many foreigners working in Singapore leave after a while. Excuses aside, it does no good to us socially.
    Last edited by PaulKami; 3rd November 2010 at 05:58 PM.
    また再建しましょう~ ^_^

  6. #146

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Btw, everyear the papers will publish what is the average pay for fresh grads. I find those numbers really skewed. Problem is many fresh grads look at those numbers, add 10% then state that as their starting pay. If as a result a company is super turned off and hire s FT the local grad will say FT drive down pay. We're not talking small amounts either. Company might be willing to pay 2.5k for engineering grad but local grad asking for 3.5k. How?

  7. #147

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    During my army days I was told "Do and die, don't ask why."
    I guess times have changed.

  8. #148
    Member voxies09's Avatar
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    it's cheaper to open another branch office in other country.... 1 developer in Singapore, I can get 5 Developers in other country like India, Hanoi, Indonesia..

    so now, even Companies are opening branch to outsource their service to other country.. so what left in Singapore? in 10 years time, Singapore is only for Sales (HQ based) but all support and development will be done in another country.

    so even now if the FT asking 2.5k/month, I can get 5 FT in their original country to work for me..

  9. #149

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    Btw, everyear the papers will publish what is the average pay for fresh grads. I find those numbers really skewed. Problem is many fresh grads look at those numbers, add 10% then state that as their starting pay. If as a result a company is super turned off and hire s FT the local grad will say FT drive down pay. We're not talking small amounts either. Company might be willing to pay 2.5k for engineering grad but local grad asking for 3.5k. How?
    Eng grad avg from what I know is 2.8k... Local grad may ask more than that depending on their grad. But I've an example around me where the person asked 2.5k, and lose out to a foreigner who asked 2.1k.
    また再建しましょう~ ^_^

  10. #150

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulKami View Post
    Eng grad avg from what I know is 2.8k... Local grad may ask more than that depending on their grad. But I've an example around me where the person asked 2.5k, and lose out to a foreigner who asked 2.1k.
    Read my earlier post. A protectionist economy no longer works. If you make it a law to pay 2.8k for eng grad then SMEs will move to iskandar. Then even the coffee auntie will lose her job.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Why should we ask why FT come here in the first place?
    Maybe acknowledging that locals can't fill every possible position is a good start.

    All I'm saying is that that there's a reason why FTs come here. Your "we should care about ourselves" most likely applies to them too. They are here to provide a service in return for a good pay. That's the basic fact.

    To be frank for one to expectthat they'd stay here (on paper you make it all sound *easy*) is absurd. No pun intended.

    :Later,

  12. #152

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    Read my earlier post. A protectionist economy no longer works. If you make it a law to pay 2.8k for eng grad then SMEs will move to iskandar. Then even the coffee auntie will lose her job.
    No, no law should be impose on the standard of pay. However, if one moves in to spoil market, depriving others from career opportunity (especially when he/she is a fresh grad), then it's an ethic and policy issue. Isn't that's what we facing now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinoy View Post
    Maybe acknowledging that locals can't fill every possible position is a good start.

    All I'm saying is that that there's a reason why FTs come here. Your "we should care about ourselves" most likely applies to them too. They are here to provide a service in return for a good pay. That's the basic fact.

    To be frank for one to expectthat they'd stay here (on paper you make it all sound *easy*) is absurd. No pun intended.

    :Later,
    Indeed that's the basic fact, thus lead to this basic problems we're facing now. The policy introduced to get a win-win situation, isn't working out. In fact, it creates more social problems. That's the basic fact too.
    また再建しましょう~ ^_^

  13. #153

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinoy View Post
    Maybe acknowledging that locals can't fill every possible position is a good start.

    All I'm saying is that that there's a reason why FTs come here. Your "we should care about ourselves" most likely applies to them too. They are here to provide a service in return for a good pay. That's the basic fact.

    To be frank for one to expectthat they'd stay here (on paper you make it all sound *easy*) is absurd. No pun intended.

    :Later,
    Sorry.... actually u are wrong on that... We dont expect you to stay... in fact in the first place MOST OF the citizens DONT WANT FTs here.... it is our ehem "Management" that keep telling us how impt you all are to us. and how you will integrate... which obviously you all will not...

    EDITED Cos some do not share the same view and well I respect that... So it is edited to MOST OF
    Last edited by aeskywan; 3rd November 2010 at 06:45 PM.

  14. #154

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulKami View Post
    No, no law should be impose on the standard of pay. However, if one moves in to spoil market, depriving others from career opportunity (especially when he/she is a fresh grad), then it's an ethic and policy issue. Isn't that's what we facing now?
    Sad I know but that's the new reality. Win 7 programmed in india, I bought a seinnheiser this afternoon - made in china. Personally I think it is better to spend our time thinking of how to add value than whining.

  15. #155

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by aeskywan View Post
    Sorry.... actually u are wrong on that... We dont expect you to stay... in fact in the first place the citizens DONT WANT FTs here.... it is our ehem "Management" that keep telling us how impt you all are to us. and how you will integrate... which obviously you all will not...
    You are not me.
    Insults so far:
    "Sad, got hypocrite like u.", greenieadi(2010)

  16. #156

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Btw, to clarify... I've got the same mindset as someone here (sorry, rushing back home, no time to check the nick), I'm not a xenophobic citizen, and I know the significance of having FT and FW in our countries. I'm rather sad that the people at the top oblivious to the social impact it has inflict, and are not doing anything significant to remedy it.

    I also agree that foreigners who come here to leach should go home already. This is my country and I won't keep quiet seeing people leeching my country off.

    Last but not least, I've made my point. And I find it weird to discuss about this topic in a photography forum. I came here to learn photography, not to engage on political talks. My apology if I've offended any citizens, locals or foreigners here. Out
    また再建しましょう~ ^_^

  17. #157

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulKami View Post
    Eng grad avg from what I know is 2.8k... Local grad may ask more than that depending on their grad. But I've an example around me where the person asked 2.5k, and lose out to a foreigner who asked 2.1k.
    Actually do you feel that 2.8k or even 2.5k is reasonable for a fresh grad, if someone else with experience asks for 2.1k?

    But it is really about setting our own expectations. Personally I feel that the paper chase has caused us to demand higher and higher salaries, when it is quite clear that at the work place, we have tons of underperforming local grads, either with lousy work attitudes, or simply can't do the job.

    I spoke to some local grads (read 20 or more), and none of them send out more than3 resumes. Why? The jobs are handed to them, whether they can or cannot do it. They are the ones out of touch with reality, thinking that with their degrees, job offers should fall from the sky.

    It's a tough world out there. Getting the degree may get you through the door to the interview, may not necessarily land you the job. After that, you still have to worry about keeping the job if you can't perform. Locals sense of superiority really need to be toned down. Just my opinion.
    Insults so far:
    "Sad, got hypocrite like u.", greenieadi(2010)

  18. #158
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinoy View Post
    It's easy for you to say STAY, because you are not in their shoes.
    But let me guess, you already know.. but you just can't accept it. Why? Coz you are not in their shoes.

    :Later,
    i suggest u rephrase. i have no idea what on earth ur talking abt.

    why is it easy for me to say stay? its not i say one. our government policy wants that.

    i seriously dun get what ur saying if you dun wanna stay, it would mean that our government policy on integrating you guys has kindly failed.
    Last edited by allenleonhart; 3rd November 2010 at 08:07 PM.

  19. #159
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    No I've never been to Astar but i work for a large MNC in the financial sector. I have hired people before and i don't look at nationality or asking pay (since not my money). I look for someone who has the right experience, perform well during the interview and that I feel I can work well with. More than half my department are FTs not because the hiring manager is biased but because locals are consistently out performed by FTs. 2 candidates one from NTU the other from Oxford both will be paid the same amount who will you hire? If due to a sense of patriotism I hire all locals that would mean my team won't be as strong as it could be. In the end I suffer.

    Btw if you go for an interview and later find out that you lose out to a FT what is your immediate response? Will you blame everyone else or will you look at where you went wrong (could be **** up during interview, dressing got problem, salary expectation). Yes some managers will be biased towards their own country mates but not all the time. Maybe 5 out 10 times. But what I sense now is that when a local fails to get a job, 10 out of 10 times he will blame it on racism, cheap labor etc etc.....
    but if i dun have the oxford guy as an option for you, who will u choose? just curious this has no link with whateva was discussed.

    and back to topic.
    5 out of 10 is 50%. u sure that lvl of biaseness is so high?
    anyways remember. FTs are the cream of the crop of wherever they came from. our cream of the crop is likely not working as your surbordinate but your superior no?

    just a honest question: are we sacrificing a little to much on our citizen's livelihood just for the sole sake of financial gain? i believe this could be discussed.
    Last edited by allenleonhart; 3rd November 2010 at 08:13 PM.

  20. #160

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulKami View Post
    Btw, to clarify... I've got the same mindset as someone here (sorry, rushing back home, no time to check the nick), I'm not a xenophobic citizen, and I know the significance of having FT and FW in our countries. I'm rather sad that the people at the top oblivious to the social impact it has inflict, and are not doing anything significant to remedy it.

    I also agree that foreigners who come here to leach should go home already. This is my country and I won't keep quiet seeing people leeching my country off.

    Last but not least, I've made my point. And I find it weird to discuss about this topic in a photography forum. I came here to learn photography, not to engage on political talks. My apology if I've offended any citizens, locals or foreigners here. Out
    Well said. You should get yourself elected as MP so that you can influence policy.

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