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Thread: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

  1. #121

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by de_stan View Post
    I have a colleague who used to work in a vitamin supplement company and she said that the company now hires about 40% Pinoys. But the best part is, Singaporeans are paid $1.1k basic salary while the Pinoys are paid $1.8k! On top of that they are also entitled to all the incentives and commission that are enjoyed by the staffs.
    Many of these Pinoys merely use Singapore as a stepping ground or springboard to jump to other countries to work such as Middle East of Canada, and because of their 'training' in Singapore they are normally accepted without even having to go for interview.

    The only party that gets to benefit from this episode are those manpower outsourcing companies that recruits foreigners and allocate them jobs in Singapore!
    Some say that local companies are hiring foreigners because they are cheaper but in your case it is not true. So the question to ask is how come the company is willing to pay more for pinoys but not locals? Is it because they work harder / can produce more than the locals? The thing I cannot stand with all the whining and complaining on the internet is that locals have this sense of entitlement like the companies / government / whole world owes them. When foreigners are paid less they complain they are spoiling the market. When foreigners are paid more they shoult unfair, high paying jobs should go to locals without looking first at what they can offer vs what FTs can offer. A protectionist economy no longer works in todays world.

  2. #122
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    Some say that local companies are hiring foreigners because they are cheaper but in your case it is not true. So the question to ask is how come the company is willing to pay more for pinoys but not locals? Is it because they work harder / can produce more than the locals? The thing I cannot stand with all the whining and complaining on the internet is that locals have this sense of entitlement like the companies / government / whole world owes them. When foreigners are paid less they complain they are spoiling the market. When foreigners are paid more they shoult unfair, high paying jobs should go to locals without looking first at what they can offer vs what FTs can offer. A protectionist economy no longer works in todays world.
    I think it is because pinnoys have degrees, are more qualified.
    I'm here to learn.:flame:

  3. #123

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by allenleonhart View Post
    you dun need too many of these sort of people. too many ppl at the top taken up by FT means people with the necessary qualifications but need a higher pay will be regulated downwards.


    read the stats: 1 in every 3 is a foreigner. a large amt of ppl in sg would be FTs. thats ridiculously high.

    in UK: population of 62 million. number of foreigners 6.7

    thats a 1 in 10.

    we have almost 3 times more in ratio of foreigners in singapore than UK.

    with regards to the claim taht singaporeans arent working hard, any evidence or is it just your opinion?

    i'm fine with FTs if they stay in singapoer and dun run away.it helps the singaproe economy actually.

    what i cant stand, is that they sap away opportunities, and then run back to their homeland. that causes money and time that we spent on them to flow out and away.
    Singapore was a fishing village. Where do you think all Singaporeans today come from. And I always hear this complain that FTs are here only to make money. Once they make enough they will go back. Long long time ago riskshaw pullers come from China. China also has rickshaw why do they need to come here? Because pay here is better. So going by your argument most of the rickshaw pullers will go back to China once they make enough. If that is true there will be no chinese in Singapore today. Same for FTs, if we make them feel welcomed they will stay, work and retire here. Their children will grow up here. Imagine if you ask the child of a PRC couple who grew up here "ah boy, you want to go back tiong kok?" what do you think his reply will be.

  4. #124
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    Singapore was a fishing village. Where do you think all Singaporeans today come from. And I always hear this complain that FTs are here only to make money. Once they make enough they will go back. Long long time ago riskshaw pullers come from China. China also has rickshaw why do they need to come here? Because pay here is better. So going by your argument most of the rickshaw pullers will go back to China once they make enough. If that is true there will be no chinese in Singapore today. Same for FTs, if we make them feel welcomed they will stay, work and retire here. Their children will grow up here. Imagine if you ask the child of a PRC couple who grew up here "ah boy, you want to go back tiong kok?" what do you think his reply will be.
    You cannot compare the FT of the past with FT or the present. The FT of the past contributed towards Singapore and stayed on too. Today's FT is 1) enjoying the fruits of labour, 2) using Singapore as a stepping stone to the West, 3) only want PR status here, 4) if anything happened to Singapore, they would all be running home and once things are cleared, they will be coming here again to enjoy....... I bet the FT of the past would stay- fight it out and contribute.
    I'm here to learn.:flame:

  5. #125

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain View Post
    If everyone is equal, then you can say so, what puts us at a disadvantage is that we need a certain amount to live in singapore and grow our families, SOME FTs are able to survive staying here with a lower pay as they want to make money and go back/remit back to their families. Another disadvantage for the singaporean male is reservist and NS obligations. If you take all the disadvantages of being a local and complete, who is the employer going to hire?

    Stop giving the government too many excuses on how the general population is sore right now. Liberal immigration policies only serves short terms gains for the government to grow GDP but will cause long hardship of the people of Singapore. Everyone is effected by it expect companies where wages can be suppress or lowered when manpower is concern. We do not have a minimum wage to protect the bottom 17% of our workforce whom have very little means to retire and enjoy life.
    I don't quite agree that immigration / cheap labor will cause long term hardship to locals because it would mean I agree that without FTs locals would enjoy a higher standard of living and / or purchasing power. If we stop FTs from coming in, they will go elsewhere and help that country compete against us. Companies will not raise wages due low supply of skilled / unskilled workers, at least not long term. They will just relocate elsewhere. My company has already outsourced a large part of the IT and operations department to a neighbouring country. We are not like australia with abundant natural resources and vast amount of land. If one day the companies and factories relocate elsewhere we will have nothing to offer the world and guess what would happen to Singapore?

  6. #126

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    Singapore was a fishing village. Where do you think all Singaporeans today come from. And I always hear this complain that FTs are here only to make money. Once they make enough they will go back. Long long time ago riskshaw pullers come from China. China also has rickshaw why do they need to come here? Because pay here is better. So going by your argument most of the rickshaw pullers will go back to China once they make enough. If that is true there will be no chinese in Singapore today. Same for FTs, if we make them feel welcomed they will stay, work and retire here. Their children will grow up here. Imagine if you ask the child of a PRC couple who grew up here "ah boy, you want to go back tiong kok?" what do you think his reply will be.
    Times have changed. Last time no air travel, they travel all the way here to help to develop Singapore, and never thought of going back because it was too inconvenient. Our ancestors helped build Singapore. Current FTs can just go back whenever they want because of air travel. There is really not much of a point living here if they can enjoy a better life back in their homeland. You must give them a really good reason why they should stay here and suffer queuing up to get a HDB when they can get bungalows in China.

    Back to your question, they will reply "an zua mai ki tiong kok, eh sai wu jin zuay condo leh, zi bing wu HDB nia"

  7. #127

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    in some countries , 10 % of the jobs are reserved for FT. got such thing in SG?i noticed nowadays lot of top jobs, executives, IT professionals are FT, inexperience one..... shouldn't this kind jobs reserve for Singaporean? i know you guys will talk about low wages and no one want to do it. but if gov control only 10% of the job can be FT, then the company got no choice but to hire Singaporean.

    the country should put it own people on priority first. don't you people agree on this?

    everyone happy.
    Last edited by ninelives; 3rd November 2010 at 03:01 PM.
    Objection !!!

  8. #128

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by brapodam View Post
    If we are really better but they are given an unfair advantage of 2 years (with the only disadvantage being that they are not as well versed in English), it may very well offset our own talents.

    And I do not doubt that they do pay rental and expenses, but there are many of them who do not need to support a family here. They support a family back in China, and it is significantly cheaper. They send most of their money back there and save here, so they can enjoy their life when they get back after working after a few years. That is what a smart FT does. They help our GDP figures but I'm not so sure about GNP figures.

    I doubt they are so altruistic, they come here to help us grow our economy? Sure, they do help us get business connections with China, they do help us grow our economy, but that is not their intention and they will never try that hard to do it, even if they do it as a side effect. They are not that dumb, many of them aim to use SG as a base to gain capital and expertise and then go back to China to set up their own businesses. If we really want them to help grow SG's economy, we need them to settle down in SG. Which is what the government is trying to do now, but I'm not sure of how successful such efforts will be. There are many other countries who want these people, and they know it. Why tie themselves down to SG if some other countries offer more attractive pay/opportunities for them? Because they get to do NS to defend Singapore and get marginally higher welfare benefits?
    Are you referring to NS of 2 years? I actually do not see that as a disadvantage. I got a job in a warehouse because I was a storeman during NS days. Many of my buddies who were cooks and drivers got jobs after NS as well because of the "training" during NS. But sorry of OT, just wanted to say that some employers do acknowledge the experience from NS.

    If we look at it a the local level, singaporeans also job hop and use branded firms as stepping stones to bigger and better paying jobs. Some also look elsewhere as in overseas, hoping the foreign exposure gives them an edge when they return home. So I dont see a difference. It's job hopping on an international scale.

    If you mention that these FT's are as highly sought after in other countries as well, and we do not have the people with the required skill set for our top jobs, why shouldnt we try to retain them. Putting a local in the job is one thing, putting a local who can't get the job done is quite another.
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  9. #129

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Personally I find that your comparison not really valid, Singapore then and Singapore now is a very different place altogether already.
    Yes back then when our ancestors came to SG, they did so to find a better life too. But at that time SG was still known as Temasek and was an uninhabited island with just a few Malay natives. After the Brisitsh declared SG as a free port did all the people come to here to make a living, and many of them decided to stay here, bring their families over and settle down for good. Build roads, schools and houses etc and that's how SG was born.

    But looking at the current situation now, most of these FWs are here to just work. The money they earn will ultimately go back to their home country at the expense of us and our economy in the long term. Remember when the money leaves our shores, the multiplier effect of that money will take place THERE not in SG. I can imagine our future generations will soon also have to fight for a place in local schools, polys and Unis. It's already happening to some of the private schools here, rich parents just need to make a generous donation to the school fund. And as long as their son result meets the minimum standard, he is garaunteed a place there.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    Singapore was a fishing village. Where do you think all Singaporeans today come from. And I always hear this complain that FTs are here only to make money. Once they make enough they will go back. Long long time ago riskshaw pullers come from China. China also has rickshaw why do they need to come here? Because pay here is better. So going by your argument most of the rickshaw pullers will go back to China once they make enough. If that is true there will be no chinese in Singapore today. Same for FTs, if we make them feel welcomed they will stay, work and retire here. Their children will grow up here. Imagine if you ask the child of a PRC couple who grew up here "ah boy, you want to go back tiong kok?" what do you think his reply will be.
    Nikon D300 | MB-D10 | AF-S 17-55mm f2.8 | 35mm f1.8 | SB-900

  10. #130

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancemania View Post
    You cannot compare the FT of the past with FT or the present. The FT of the past contributed towards Singapore and stayed on too. Today's FT is 1) enjoying the fruits of labour, 2) using Singapore as a stepping stone to the West, 3) only want PR status here, 4) if anything happened to Singapore, they would all be running home and once things are cleared, they will be coming here again to enjoy....... I bet the FT of the past would stay- fight it out and contribute.
    Well what you said can equally be applied to FTs in the past. Initially when they get here of course they won't feel a sense of belonging and long for their families in the motherland. But after pulling rickshaws for 20 years here he would probably feel more attached to this country than his original one.

    By the way, very unlikely that FTs past and present will fight it out. If the motivation for leaving the motherland is money then they will just move on to another place. But fact is many chose to stay, that's why you and me are here today.

  11. #131
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    Singapore was a fishing village. Where do you think all Singaporeans today come from. And I always hear this complain that FTs are here only to make money. Once they make enough they will go back. Long long time ago riskshaw pullers come from China. China also has rickshaw why do they need to come here? Because pay here is better. So going by your argument most of the rickshaw pullers will go back to China once they make enough. If that is true there will be no chinese in Singapore today. Same for FTs, if we make them feel welcomed they will stay, work and retire here. Their children will grow up here. Imagine if you ask the child of a PRC couple who grew up here "ah boy, you want to go back tiong kok?" what do you think his reply will be.
    frankly, I do feel saturated sometimes..but don't detest the individuals of different nationality...coz be it singaporeans or PR, there are bound to be haters...

    I understand more and more PR's are serving NS...none that I know during my time in NS though... these are those who truly wana stay...so they serve the nation...for those who did not, they might just use Sg as a stepping stone...they would just got to anywhere tt pays...that have ppl who can speak their language etc...they don't have to be in this country to love this country, fall in love with it...and defend it with their lives...

    Recently, I come across youngsters in Sec uniform buying prepaid cards...they would ask: "这卡能打回国吗?"...I was thinking, why didn't they say: "这卡能打回国吗?"...this I conclude as a strong sense of belonging to the countries they came from...they only have 1 country in mind...can they feel as strongly for Sg too? It's totally possible, but definitely not easy...
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  12. #132

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muckafutha View Post
    Are you referring to NS of 2 years? I actually do not see that as a disadvantage. I got a job in a warehouse because I was a storeman during NS days. Many of my buddies who were cooks and drivers got jobs after NS as well because of the "training" during NS. But sorry of OT, just wanted to say that some employers do acknowledge the experience from NS.
    Now NS is different. Employers are starting to hire FTs more because they don't serve NS. Reservist is disruptive, you need to find replacements if these locals hold important positions and it's not convenient sometimes when they just run off for reservist at crucial periods of time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muckafutha View Post
    If you mention that these FT's are as highly sought after in other countries as well, and we do not have the people with the required skill set for our top jobs, why shouldnt we try to retain them. Putting a local in the job is one thing, putting a local who can't get the job done is quite another.
    We should try to retain them, but it is very hard as they know that there are other countries who are willing to accept them without tying them down to citizenship. Furthermore, as there are little real incentive to be a citizen when PRs get most of the benefits that citizens get, they won't really see the point of being a citizen. Perhaps we should start looking into developing our own talents (there are talents in Singapore, we're not all stupid).

  13. #133

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by brapodam View Post
    Times have changed. Last time no air travel, they travel all the way here to help to develop Singapore, and never thought of going back because it was too inconvenient. Our ancestors helped build Singapore. Current FTs can just go back whenever they want because of air travel. There is really not much of a point living here if they can enjoy a better life back in their homeland. You must give them a really good reason why they should stay here and suffer queuing up to get a HDB when they can get bungalows in China.

    Back to your question, they will reply "an zua mai ki tiong kok, eh sai wu jin zuay condo leh, zi bing wu HDB nia"
    I don't buy that argument because once they retire they will just need take a 1 way boat ride back. Probably take a 1-2 months. If they have the heart to go do you think a boat ride is too inconvenient? Also when you say our ancestors helped build Singapore, do you mean they helped earn the money to buy the materials to build the roads or they actually put on PCK boots and laid bricks? Whichever is your answer I don't think you can say FTs are not doing that today.

    So you're saying that if someone asks you to exchange your singapore passport with a china / india / malaysia passport you will say "yes I can buy bungalow there"? Because I don't see a difference between us and the child of a PRC / indian couple that grew up here.

  14. #134

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    Some say that local companies are hiring foreigners because they are cheaper but in your case it is not true. So the question to ask is how come the company is willing to pay more for pinoys but not locals? Is it because they work harder / can produce more than the locals? The thing I cannot stand with all the whining and complaining on the internet is that locals have this sense of entitlement like the companies / government / whole world owes them. When foreigners are paid less they complain they are spoiling the market. When foreigners are paid more they shoult unfair, high paying jobs should go to locals without looking first at what they can offer vs what FTs can offer. A protectionist economy no longer works in todays world.
    how about because the managers are foreigners and they like to hire their own nation people?

    Did you ever step into one of our research insitutes like Astar? I think only 10% of the people there is singaporeans. When the ratio skew to such a state, I don't think the FT are winning in terms of merit alone. Politics will come to play. Singaporeans will dislike working in an environment with 90% FT. A china manager usually has china subordinates.

    What do you say about this?

  15. #135

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    I don't buy that argument because once they retire they will just need take a 1 way boat ride back. Probably take a 1-2 months. If they have the heart to go do you think a boat ride is too inconvenient? Also when you say our ancestors helped build Singapore, do you mean they helped earn the money to buy the materials to build the roads or they actually put on PCK boots and laid bricks? Whichever is your answer I don't think you can say FTs are not doing that today.

    So you're saying that if someone asks you to exchange your singapore passport with a china / india / malaysia passport you will say "yes I can buy bungalow there"? Because I don't see a difference between us and the child of a PRC / indian couple that grew up here.

    Hmmm I think you should really restudy your history..... During then it was not a simple case of take a one month boat journey back.... many of our ancestors came here as coolies, not much better than lowly paid slaves. The lucky and smart ones did business, prospered and stayed on. Some gambled their earnings away while others died of illness and overwork.(no medical health care then... if u were sick... too bad for u.) The majority send all their monies back home to China or India just like their counterparts now. Many end up dying here cos they can not afford to go back.

    The FTs now owe no loyalty to us except we are like a gold mine for them to squeeze. If one wants to be naive and carry on thinking they will integrate..... well good luck to you then.....

  16. #136

    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchRival View Post
    http://www.todayonline.com/Singapore...porean--Survey

    People, all this unhappiness is a myth. All is well and good in sg!


    Yes, All well and all good! And all very proud!
    Oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah .... make us so proud.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LehZX...eature=related

  17. #137
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    Singapore was a fishing village. Where do you think all Singaporeans today come from. And I always hear this complain that FTs are here only to make money. Once they make enough they will go back. Long long time ago riskshaw pullers come from China. China also has rickshaw why do they need to come here? Because pay here is better. So going by your argument most of the rickshaw pullers will go back to China once they make enough. If that is true there will be no chinese in Singapore today. Same for FTs, if we make them feel welcomed they will stay, work and retire here. Their children will grow up here. Imagine if you ask the child of a PRC couple who grew up here "ah boy, you want to go back tiong kok?" what do you think his reply will be.
    u missed my point.

    i'm fine with FTs who come here to STAY. read: to STAY.

    what i am not fine is the FTs who earn liao go back tiong kok.
    Last edited by allenleonhart; 3rd November 2010 at 05:34 PM.

  18. #138
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninelives View Post

    the country should put it own people on priority first. don't you people agree on this?

    everyone happy.
    i find this point logical.. if there isnt a marginally large difference taking up citizenship, whats the point then?

  19. #139
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorlee10 View Post
    I don't buy that argument because once they retire they will just need take a 1 way boat ride back. Probably take a 1-2 months. If they have the heart to go do you think a boat ride is too inconvenient? Also when you say our ancestors helped build Singapore, do you mean they helped earn the money to buy the materials to build the roads or they actually put on PCK boots and laid bricks? Whichever is your answer I don't think you can say FTs are not doing that today.

    So you're saying that if someone asks you to exchange your singapore passport with a china / india / malaysia passport you will say "yes I can buy bungalow there"? Because I don't see a difference between us and the child of a PRC / indian couple that grew up here.
    many factors. sg has security, cause of its small landsize and easy to govern. with a lot if rights we give up, for our safety.

    u can stay in iraq, build a condo. just be sure it doesnt get blown up.

    FTs have a choice. they can earn, go back and be a king. afterall their whole 20 generation family is back at tiong kok. or they can stay here for the security and education.

  20. #140
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    Default Re: I really donít know what Iím defending any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Limsgp View Post
    We have.

    These jobs would have gone to locals if not for the many so-called FTs. They (FT) maybe cheaper, or, more expensive but not necessarily better.
    Don't tell me you'll hire peeps based on his nationality alone.

    It's easy to miss out important matters like locals being picky about location of work, long working hours, being inflexible (don't want weekend work, don't want night shift, don't want to do support work etc).. among other things.

    :Later,

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