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Thread: A German tank commander who holdup one armour division

  1. #41

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    In the book "Soldat" the writer overheard a conversation where someone said that Hitler was a gambler and gamblers won't quit until they lose. That was before even the reclaimation of Sudentenland. Prophetic words indeed for he did eventually overplay his hand and Germany (and the world) came to grief.

    When the Allies attacked Germany, they faced but a small fraction of the German Army, most of which were deployed at the eastern front against the advancing Russians. Imagine if they weren't engaged in a second front and were fresh and fully deployed at the western front (and led by von Rundstedt AND Rommel, two of their finest commanders).

    And without England as a forward base, there would be no way the Allies could hit at the german industrial heartlands. Coming in through Africa, the allies would not been able to conduct a bombing campaign of such a scale and of such effectiveness. It was a fact that the combat effectiveness of the german army was hampered by a serious lack of fuel. This was so bad that when the counterattack at the Ardennes was launched, the german units needed to capture the Allies' fuel dumps just to keep going (maybe they should have invented the Flintstones tank, no need fuel, just feet power ).

    And not just that, air power was a significant edge that the allies possessed and was the deciding factor in many ground encounters. For example, the Allies landing at Normandy were facing a dug-in combat hardened force that was familiar with the terrain and well equiped to fight in the hedgerows. Without the close-air support of the Typhoons and Hurricanes and a bevy of heavier bombers, it could have been quite disastrous.

    And i wonder how far behind they actually were in the nuclear race. They did have some heavy water processing plants so i guess they were working on fusion bombs rather than fission? Dunno anything about that. The V-1s and V-2s would make terrifying delivery vehicles though.

  2. #42
    Senior Member King Tiger's Avatar
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    Zaren, Foxtwo, Giddygoat.
    All of you are good military analysis.

    No matter how the war is fought in either one way or other.
    It still cost more than 25 millions (i think this should be the figure) Allies forces to defeat the Axis power.
    Let alone the Russian had lost around 20 millions soldiers and civilians.

    I couldn;t imagine sometime, what if Germany be in the first country to invent atomic bomb, load the warhead onto the V2 missiles, and able strike deep into Washington, London and Moscow.
    The whole stragetic warfront will change totally and we will now be speaking Japanese as first and only languages, while the European will speak German.

    Then, they will be only be Nikon, Lecia camerca and some Japanese, German brand in the market.
    No more Kodak, Dell, DHL, Intel, hp selling in Singapore.

  3. #43
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    King Tiger, I'm just a young punk who likes planes... heh heh... Cannot compare with Zaren or Giddygoat lah..

    I recommend this book, "An Army At Dawn - The War in North Africa, 1942-1943" by Rick Atkinson. The media is always focusing on the war in Normandy, Europe, and scant attention is paid in the war on North Africa, other than to bring up Rommel's name on occasion. This book opened up my eyes and what ever which transpired there was indeed, I quote, "...a great drama..."

    It is utterly amazing based on the records, on how poorly led joint British and American forces defeated the Vichy French first, then the Germans and Italians. The series of bad leadership and luck plagued the Allied initially, but they prevailed in the end.

    You'know, I think I'll read it again.

  4. #44
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    I cannot recall which book it was that I read, but Hitler apparently did not have such a burning desire to invade England; rather he wanted England to capitulate and ally with the Nazi powers so that he'd only have to worry about the Soviet Union. Apparently that was one of the theories surrounding the apparent defection of Rudolph Hess.

    Japanese carrier admiral Isoroku Yamamoto was said to have said at the closing of the Pearl Harbor attack "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

    The Axis's best chance of winning was in the first two years of the war, and that was squandered by bad leadership and strategic goals at the very top. It was a slippery slope from then on, as the Allies got into gear for the battles ahead.

    The Americans had a force projection on a global scale that took the combined forces of the Axis to cover. Think the Aleutians, the Pacific, North Atlantic (staging from Iceland), eventually including Europe and the Middle East. The raids by Task Force 58 on the Marianas occured 5 days after the Allies landed on Normandy in June 1944. To stage two major operations within a week on opposite sides of the globe is a telling reminder of the latent might of the US military then. How mighty? By 1945, the US could had 116 aircraft carriers of various sizes afloat, and even half the number being combat-ready is a considerable figure.

    Instead of the Romanian oilfields which the Axis already held by virtue of the Blitzkrieg, the oilfields in Borneo, the Allies had the vast oilfields of the Middle East (the Axis advance was stopped at El Alamein and in Borneo), and those in the American continent itself. The two main powers in the Axis, Germany and Japan, both suffered from tremendous fuel shortages during the final days of the war, through interdiction of oil supply lines. Technologically superior though they may be, a Sherman with a full fuel tank is more useful than a dry King Tiger.

    On an individual basis, the Axis had several outstanding servicemen, including that tank ace Wittman, then we have Erich Hartmann scoring an unbelievable 352 aerial victories, as well as a bevy of 100+ kill German aces. In comparison, the top American ace Dave Bong scored merely 40 kills. However, the Axis fighting system did not allow schedule rotation due to battle weariness - fighting men were used till they collapsed, were injured or were killed, whereas experienced Allied men were sent home to pass on their experience, thus exponentially increasing the average skill level in the fighting forces. Similarly, the Japanese lost much of their experience through the attrition in the Pacific battles like Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, and Midway. By June 1944, they could field the carriers against the 16-strong TF58 carrier group, but could not field the quality of pilots to go against their foe toe-to-toe.

    A lot of what ifs, had the Germans gotten their research into gear instead of being overconfident, as had the Japanese, but ultimately they didn't. Strategic errors cost them the war, their scientists and designers can design and prototype weapons far beyond what the Allies could produce, but it matters little because they never got produced, or didn't get produced in large enough numbers to make a difference, or didn't have the fuel to fight.

    In retrospect, World War Two wasn't started because of oil, but it probably was lost because of it.

    P.S: This isn't authoritative, please feel free to concur or debate as you feel applicable.

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    But another WHAT IF....

    WHAT IF THE GERMANS DEPLOYED CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE ALLIES? BRITISH, AMERICAN and RUSSIAN TROOPS? They could have wiped out scores of soldiers if their plan worked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agape01
    But another WHAT IF....

    WHAT IF THE GERMANS DEPLOYED CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE ALLIES? BRITISH, AMERICAN and RUSSIAN TROOPS? They could have wiped out scores of soldiers if their plan worked.
    I could answer for that. Hitler apparently abhorred the use of gas because he himself as a soldier in the First World War was injured inhaling mustard gas. The Allies, well aware of the use of gas in the First World War, had gas masks as part of their equipment, though not always.

    But what if Hitler was killed during World War I? Too many what ifs......

    ......what if I knew which numbers to buy for the next Toto draw?

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    Quote Originally Posted by agape01
    But another WHAT IF....

    WHAT IF THE GERMANS DEPLOYED CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE ALLIES? BRITISH, AMERICAN and RUSSIAN TROOPS? They could have wiped out scores of soldiers if their plan worked.
    Ever since after World War I, no countries would dare to use chemical weapon until the 1980 Iran-Iraq War, Suddam Hussien authorise the use of chemcial weapons against the Iranian soldiers when the Iraqi were beaten at the battlefield in Iran.
    Their usage were condemn by the UN, and years later became part of the reason kenna invade by US lead force in the 2nd Gulf War.

    Germany and Hilter, and also the allies themselves know the consequence of using chemical warfare against each other.
    If you notice, neither side use chemcial weapon during World War II.
    Those go for SAF chemical warfare training will know how it feel like.

  8. #48

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    haha..last time that pasir laba camp chem warfare trg grd...we went in, then got the decon, mop4, canister change...we went in, do jumping jacks, pull off the mask, recite rank name IC# until cannot take it..it really felt quite horrible..then the instructor will drag u out to recover at the green fence.. all those thingys..kinda memorable..

  9. #49
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    Hopefully, the world wouldn't dare to NUKE the living daylights out of each one of us.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by agape01
    Hopefully, the world wouldn't dare to NUKE the living daylights out of each one of us.
    Nations of the world would be very unlikely to resort to WMD for fear of retaliation. That's what makes terrorists so scary. if they get their hands on nukes, etc........ And they have no qualms about using it on innocents. In fact, they seemed to hit almost exclusively on innocents cos militarily significant targets are just too difficult to gain access to or they are to cowardly to even try. Wonder how they actually can do all that and still claim moral superiority

    King Tiger, you overate me leh. i just read too much stephen ambrose and spent too much time playing "blitzkrieg" and "hearts of iron"

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by r32
    I could answer for that. Hitler apparently abhorred the use of gas because he himself as a soldier in the First World War was injured inhaling mustard gas. The Allies, well aware of the use of gas in the First World War, had gas masks as part of their equipment, though not always.

    But what if Hitler was killed during World War I? Too many what ifs......

    ......what if I knew which numbers to buy for the next Toto draw?
    In the 19th century, a young Austrian woman was in the pangs of childbirth. Her first two children died shortly after birth and the 3rd one died during childbirth. Her 4th pregnancy was by far the most difficult. When the baby was finally born, it was very weak and had difficulty breathing. The woman and her husband prayed fervently for the baby's survival. They had named him Adolf.

    what if...... ?

    [this is a true story]
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  12. #52

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    Wars not make one great, I get worried when people talk about war like its a game of hardware and technology. Bombs have no eyes, nor bullets ears to hear your pleas, do not pleasure in wars or the talk of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
    Wars not make one great, I get worried when people talk about war like its a game of hardware and technology. Bombs have no eyes, nor bullets ears to hear your pleas, do not pleasure in wars or the talk of it.
    I see your concern DeusExMachina, but a bunch of guys discussing history shouldn't worry you. War analysis has been done by countless people before us, it's an occupation for some even.

    Wars do make political & military leaders great, but yes, war is not a game of hardware & technology. Bombs and bullets are fired by humans obeying the orders of other humans who in turn are bounded by their own circumstances, be it morally right or wrong.

    We have to sound impartial because that is how work is done. In our heads & hearts we know that war destroys family and country. War sheds unnecessary blood & tears. We have to remain impassive and judgemental or otherwise this thread will turn into a Peace vs War discussion which IMO serves no purpose (other than to bring the mods down on our heads for political talk).

    Personally, I am interested in warfare. I purchase books & surf the web for articles regarding fighting men & machine. I drool over fighter planes, tanks, ships, personal arms, the world's finiest fighting units, etc... However, it is with the knowledge of what kind of destruction these weapons can bring about which grounds me too. I don't wish for wars to start nor to continue the way it does. I wish for world peace like every other man.

    I rather take pictures of happy families than families torn apart.
    Peace friend

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    In the 19th century, a young Austrian woman was in the pangs of childbirth. Her first two children died shortly after birth and the 3rd one died during childbirth. Her 4th pregnancy was by far the most difficult. When the baby was finally born, it was very weak and had difficulty breathing. The woman and her husband prayed fervently for the baby's survival. They had named him Adolf.

    what if...... ?

    [this is a true story]
    Here's another "what if" for you. Adolf was an illegitemate child. Hitler's mother gave him her maiden name, which was Heutler. Young Adolf later changed the spelling to Hitler.

    Hitler's actual father's name was Schicklgruber. Many years later, his father came back to Hitler and tried to claim him back as his son, but the young Adolf told him to go away.

    What if Hitler had been named Schicklgruber instead? Can you imagine that a man named Schicklgruber would rise to become leader of the Third Reich? Can you imagine legions of Nazi fanatics raising their right arm and yelling "HEIL SCHICKLGRUBER"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amfibius
    Here's another "what if" for you. Adolf was an illegitemate child. Hitler's mother gave him her maiden name, which was Heutler. Young Adolf later changed the spelling to Hitler.

    Hitler's actual father's name was Schicklgruber. Many years later, his father came back to Hitler and tried to claim him back as his son, but the young Adolf told him to go away.

    What if Hitler had been named Schicklgruber instead? Can you imagine that a man named Schicklgruber would rise to become leader of the Third Reich? Can you imagine legions of Nazi fanatics raising their right arm and yelling "HEIL SCHICKLGRUBER"?
    At least it's still german ...

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
    Wars not make one great, I get worried when people talk about war like its a game of hardware and technology. Bombs have no eyes, nor bullets ears to hear your pleas, do not pleasure in wars or the talk of it.
    No worries my friend. war sucks and i would not wish it on anybody. People die and those who lived had their lives ruined.
    we talk of the hardware and the tactics cos we are just nerds But wars are not started by that, it was started cos some idiot got greedy or pissed off over another idiot. having the means of making war does not automatically start a war. it's people who make war and had been doing so since before we even invented weapons.
    interestingly, have you ever noticed no scientist, engineers etc actually started wars though they invented and made all the weapons? it's always the poiliticians. I guess if you know the damage you can do, you try to restrain yourself but the ignorants would not have such inhibitions and hence disaster beckons.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by r32
    I cannot recall which book it was that I read, but Hitler apparently did not have such a burning desire to invade England; rather he wanted England to capitulate and ally with the Nazi powers so that he'd only have to worry about the Soviet Union. Apparently that was one of the theories surrounding the apparent defection of Rudolph Hess.

    Japanese carrier admiral Isoroku Yamamoto was said to have said at the closing of the Pearl Harbor attack "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

    The Axis's best chance of winning was in the first two years of the war, and that was squandered by bad leadership and strategic goals at the very top. It was a slippery slope from then on, as the Allies got into gear for the battles ahead.

    The Americans had a force projection on a global scale that took the combined forces of the Axis to cover. Think the Aleutians, the Pacific, North Atlantic (staging from Iceland), eventually including Europe and the Middle East. The raids by Task Force 58 on the Marianas occured 5 days after the Allies landed on Normandy in June 1944. To stage two major operations within a week on opposite sides of the globe is a telling reminder of the latent might of the US military then. How mighty? By 1945, the US could had 116 aircraft carriers of various sizes afloat, and even half the number being combat-ready is a considerable figure.

    Instead of the Romanian oilfields which the Axis already held by virtue of the Blitzkrieg, the oilfields in Borneo, the Allies had the vast oilfields of the Middle East (the Axis advance was stopped at El Alamein and in Borneo), and those in the American continent itself. The two main powers in the Axis, Germany and Japan, both suffered from tremendous fuel shortages during the final days of the war, through interdiction of oil supply lines. Technologically superior though they may be, a Sherman with a full fuel tank is more useful than a dry King Tiger.

    On an individual basis, the Axis had several outstanding servicemen, including that tank ace Wittman, then we have Erich Hartmann scoring an unbelievable 352 aerial victories, as well as a bevy of 100+ kill German aces. In comparison, the top American ace Dave Bong scored merely 40 kills. However, the Axis fighting system did not allow schedule rotation due to battle weariness - fighting men were used till they collapsed, were injured or were killed, whereas experienced Allied men were sent home to pass on their experience, thus exponentially increasing the average skill level in the fighting forces. Similarly, the Japanese lost much of their experience through the attrition in the Pacific battles like Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, and Midway. By June 1944, they could field the carriers against the 16-strong TF58 carrier group, but could not field the quality of pilots to go against their foe toe-to-toe.

    A lot of what ifs, had the Germans gotten their research into gear instead of being overconfident, as had the Japanese, but ultimately they didn't. Strategic errors cost them the war, their scientists and designers can design and prototype weapons far beyond what the Allies could produce, but it matters little because they never got produced, or didn't get produced in large enough numbers to make a difference, or didn't have the fuel to fight.

    In retrospect, World War Two wasn't started because of oil, but it probably was lost because of it.

    P.S: This isn't authoritative, please feel free to concur or debate as you feel applicable.
    r32, well said, you are a master tactican. Zhu ge Liang the Second

    Apparently, Japanese do not introduce the concept of mass production and mass training (especially on pilots).
    Unlike Germany, Japan did not introduce "Total War" concept to maximise the their manpower for total war.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
    Wars not make one great, I get worried when people talk about war like its a game of hardware and technology. Bombs have no eyes, nor bullets ears to hear your pleas, do not pleasure in wars or the talk of it.
    Hi DeuExMachina

    As what foxtwo and giddygoat have said, our topics is only on the what if, tactics and stragetic on the warfare it self only, nothing else.

    In short, iIt is never our intention to express other unhuman and unhonourable discussion as leisure. Please understand.

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