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Thread: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

  1. #21

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2100 View Post
    Anyway I have to say this, I'd think most pros esp those shooting quite a fair number of weddings, usually have no ego one. I am using a D70, D200 and D90. What ego do i have? Prob about 30-50% of the advanced amateurs have much better cams than me.
    Lenses also, I shoot with a lowly Sigma 30/1.4 and Sigma 17-50/2.8 and 85/1.8. This month Oct I have 12 shoots, in that would be 3 or 4 ROMs I can't remember. Just came back today from one half of a AD (split day), afternoon ROM and evening ROM. 23 Oct mah..... For the amateurs hobbyists, do you really know what 23 Oct 2010 means?

    But what the amateurs do not have to answer for is the responsbility of churning out reliably decent pix wedding after wedding after wedding. If there are good/excellent pix, then good, I hope to give all I can to my clients. But sometimes really its not possible - you can just hope that the clients are the chin-chye type (usually are, luckily).

    Just last week, my VG pal was held up due to the Express not rendering properly. Backup VG arrived 5 mins late, I am very sure of that, 2035h as I got timestamp in my pix taking the montage going off at 2038h. But yesterday I was shooting with the partner, sure enough the complaint came in. 5 mins times all the several hundred guests waiting in the ballroom. What to do, there is only one thing which you can do. (don't wanna spell out)

    3 weeks ago and 1 week ago, diarrohea and vomitting just before the wedding. Weak like hell, still shoot, its my responsiblity. Now also a bit of running nose, but gonna be sleeping. VG sick for weeks, still shoot. Its a tiring job esp with all the early hours, you get 3-4 hrs of sleep consecutive days. And don't compare say a director travelling between countries preparing documents etc. I can assure you this is much more tiring physically. Haze still continue shoot outdoor dude run here run there.

    For amateurs, just shoot once, wah...tired ah tired ah. After that PP nice, HUAT. Pros suck. If late 5 mins, no problemo....still can continue churn out good pix....responsiblity not there.

    And for those old birds shooter, ask them what 10-15 years ago, or even 6-7 years ago the couples how nice are they. Nowadays, 23-28 year youngsters, what are their demands, what are their rights which they clearly are aware, and what avenues do they have in case the PG/VG did a wee bit of wrong and if they are not happy how easily they can complain. This is so even if you are charging sub 1k, whack you till you are dead in the forums.
    No $$ no problem, can still expect good stuff, just take advantage by just demanding to the very last bit.

    So don't make it more difficult for us loh.....
    Chill Dude... Take good care of your health first. =) Get well soon.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedy77 View Post
    Dear Threadstarter and all other 2nd/3rd/4th/5th photographers.

    Before I started wedding photography, I used to think like you: another photographer will do no harm. I was SO WRONG....

    So many times I had other photographers get in my way. And although I have "the right" to ask them to get out of my way, it's simply not possible to go tell everyone the same thing when the important moments like the exchange of rings and kissing the bride(which last only a few seconds).

    I have had a groom's friend with a pro dslr and huge flashgun with big difusser/reflector and his huge reflector got into a few of my frames.

    So TS, do your friend a favour. Let the pros do their work properly.
    nery77: yup, i did. i'm not there shooting haha
    Pentax K-x | 18-55mm Kit lens | Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-4.5 | Pentax 35mm f2.4

  3. #23

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    i guess many amateur hobbyists like myself are constantly looking for opportunities to improve ourselves in photography. i believed that there are some might be overwhelmed during the AD shooting and become a hindrance to the main PG/VG.

    so pls don't be so critical on us! i'm sorry if my 1st post has caused any misunderstanding or offended any one. i'm just trying to understand the viewpoints from pro-PGs on additional PG. thanks all for your valuable feedbacks!

    any advice for amateur hobbyists to improve our photography skills without causing any hindrance to other PGs/VGs?
    Pentax K-x | 18-55mm Kit lens | Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-4.5 | Pentax 35mm f2.4

  4. #24

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Yeah it did gave me a chance to rant but you have great altitude in handling it gracefully. Thanx and a thumbs up for you.

    To answer your questions; a great way to start out is shooting events, like charity dinners as a volunteer, once your events gigs go higher profile, especially those held in hotels with invited VIPs and stage performances, it stimulates the fast pace, low light, and weird color temp experienced in weddings. At the same time such events are more tolerant of many photographers at the same time each shooting for their individual companies or media and the pros in this genre are used to sharing the fieldground. After sometime you will find the transition to full day AD weddings easier.

    Alternative is to apprentice under a wedding pro, and learn by watching and doing the less crucial work. Only those with right altitude gets in coz I believe the wedding pros filters out individuals with bad ethics, high ego, and poor work altitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by mariodoe View Post
    hi pple,

    really appreciate all the in-depth views and persectives from pro-photographers like Benjamin, SK, sjackal, nerdy77 and 2100. your kind explanation enlighten me greatly on the tough job of a wedding photographer. many thanks!

    well, i believed my initial ignorant has ignite some burning emotion and critical feedbacks from jasonB. i'm apologetic if my comments have offended you in any way.

    do let me position myself better to clear all misconceptions on me by jasonB.

    1) i've never said i'm expectionally great in photography and can match the hired pro out there in my post. i would have volunteer my service long before my fren has even approach his wedding photographer right? i noe where my ability lies and that's y i'm trying to learn by shooting more frequently as a background photographer.

    2) i'm sorry i've inappropiately phrase my sentence - "i noe my rights", i'm trying to say that i noe my own stance as a background photographer in not interfering the main photographer. i constantly keeping a look out if i'm blocking his view or positioning during the whole event. so i'm not stating i've my own "rights" in other's pple wedding. i'm still a sensible person.

    3) being a self-taught amateur, i'm just sincerely sourcing any opportunity to polish my skills. so i dun understand why you are so critical about me? did i hurt your pride as a pro-photographer? maybe it will be good if you could share with us your works, so we can learn from you too? thanks in advance!

    4) lastly, i'm just trying to understand the viewpoints from the pro-photographers about having additional photographer in the AD photoshooting. i'm glad and appreciative to receive many valuable views from the rest. nonetheless, i'm thankful for your reply which let me realize how others had viewed me so negatively.
    Last edited by JasonB; 24th October 2010 at 01:38 AM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    I thought i share my 2c.

    Generally, I don't mind another photographer friend in the event. You can stop people taking photos but what is the point. Generally, for critical shots, I will have prep those who is "helping" out to be outside my vicinity until I am done. Surprisingly, it works really well for me.

    My couple usually already told their friends and families that I have the priority over others. Best thing is to know everyone that have the big camera in sight and explain things before everything started. Communication do play a big part and good gesture go a long way.

    What many amateurs believe is, the more you shoot the better you get and rush in to do thousands of shots. I remember when I first started, I wasn't allow to shoot unless I "see" the image in my mind. It was frustrating but it goes a long way...

    If you don't have that image in your mind, never mind ten thousand shots, u still do see it.

    So my advise for those who is learning the rope, start looking and start feeling rather than shooting blindly. Leave your camera and open your mind.

    That is the lesson I learn and it works really well.

    A professional photog get paid and I certainly don't feel the need to "compete" with anyone on the day. Bottom line is, I was the appointed photographer and I will get the job done in the best way possible.

    You do get judge by the jiemei on the day, so present yourself like how you would like to present yourself.

    Take care and good luck.

    Regards,

    Hart

  6. #26

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    If you got 3-5 shooters, sometimes you look at the photos, you will see the subjects eyes are not aligned. Some looking left, some looking right. They can get confused and look at different cameraman...

  7. #27

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by mariodoe View Post
    hi pple,
    Hi mariodoe,

    The situation actually isn't that bad seriously. What your friend, his VG/PG does not want is merely.

    (1) As a hobbyist yourself, do not go occupy the same space as the official PG/VG. That means all the good spots would be gone. As a hobbyist, usually that means you are more "
    in-tuned" with what is going on, situation-aware, and so will be able to select those angles/spots which will net you the best shots, more so than a regular auntie/jiemei with a PnS or micro 4/3s cam who are just after facebook-quality "can see can already" shots.
    As a hobbyist, you will be after shots which are not even 5% blocked. Those aunties after facebook shots don't care even if a head covers 20% of the frame.

    (2) Do not cover the tea-ceremony or table-table shots. Usually a 1 or 2 year experience guy be it freelance, full-time or branded as master-photographer guy..whatever, would be able to shoot this decently, whether to control the situation or not depends on how the PG/VG works.

    (3) There are some instances which we cannot avoid getting into each others shot. That way usually we squat down and take cover, so at least we are not right SMACK into > 20% of each other's frame. Or we just appear over a fleeting instance in each other's frame (at least for the PG avoiding VG). We don't be hero and stand our ground. This is also why we wear dark coloured clothes or black during the evening. Low profile.

    So as a hobbyist, just net some other shots esp the relatives/guests faces. Usually for a OMO professional, he/she does not have the luxury or time to cover that. There are many interesting situations for people photography with a long lens, practise your AF and handholding skills under dim and FAST conditions in the reality. So many opportunities. Does not have to aim for the Bride or Groom solely.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    You do get judge by the jiemei on the day, so present yourself like how you would like to present yourself.

    Hart
    There is also a huge diff between 20-30 years old jiemei, 30-40 years old jiemei, S&A, married, or married with kids jiemei. Big difference.

    Brothers, usually bo chup. Usually, availability of Beer is key.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    What i usually do during a shoot where there is additional shooters is,

    When ever there are major moments or critical moments where i can anticipate these 3-5 photographers wanting to blaze through it, I usually stop everyone before the process of what ever is about to happen, eg. putting on the veil, or tea ceremony. So just so that they know sth impt is about to happen. And i will ask them to shoot what ever they want first. Because during the process of say covering the veil, if anyone shoots, i will stop shooting altogether.

    It is very important that your couple knows this and also provide them an explaination on why we do this. So automatically, during the next part of a critical moment, the couple will be the one telling these photogs to not shoot.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    For the TS, one need not shoot weddings to learn how to shoot a wedding well. A good event/wedding photographer needs to be very attentive and be able to compose and shoot well under pressure and time constraint. I would say, go out and shoot more street portrait shots, learn how to feel and respond/anticipate your subject's movements which is very random. Shooting birthday parties/any other events for friends and family is a good way to start also (usually do not require a professional photographer). If you can do those really well, I'd dare say you should 1/2 way to being a freelance event/wedding day photographer already.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by artspraken View Post
    If you got 3-5 shooters, sometimes you look at the photos, you will see the subjects eyes are not aligned. Some looking left, some looking right. They can get confused and look at different cameraman...
    I was once penalised for this, coz at the table-table shots, VIP table, ah ma's face and eyes were looking all the way to the left. It costed me $$$. I tried to reason there were some other relatives holding a cam, but only a fool who is out to draw blood would accept that. So the main photographer just hands out the $$$. I was still pretty noob that time a couple of years ago, so did not check.
    And even with $$ compensation, the parents are still upset. It may seem like a very easy standard normal table-table shot and perhaps PJ-based higher earning photogs may not emphasize a lot on that, but that may mean a lot to the parents in some circumstances.
    It is the only time whereby both sides in-laws dress nicely and take a group family photo. A wedding does not only belong to the couple, but both sides parents as well basically. The couples may let it go, but may be pressurised by the parents....then the couples themselves also flare up. After the wedding the bride quite often moves in to stay with the in-laws, usually 1 mountain cannot hold 2 tigresses. It sounds dramatic to those not in this line line and I may be accused of making a mountain out of a molehill. But hey, those in this line surely knows this.....

    So fair to the main PG or not....

  12. #32

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Which is why for table to table shots I worked out standard procedure. Whenever there's frens or relatives holding a camera next to me, I will just pause and relax my hand on the camera, then turn and look at the person to wait for them to finish taking the photos first before I take my turn to shoot so that everyone's eyeballs will be to my cam. Or when i see pple holding up their camera, I will politely ask them to put down their cam when I shoot (briefly explaining the simple reason behind it).

  13. #33

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    Which is why for table to table shots I worked out standard procedure. Whenever there's frens or relatives holding a camera next to me, I will just pause and relax my hand on the camera, then turn and look at the person to wait for them to finish taking the photos first before I take my turn to shoot so that everyone's eyeballs will be to my cam.
    Yep, that's what I am doing now.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    Which is why for table to table shots I worked out standard procedure. Whenever there's frens or relatives holding a camera next to me, I will just pause and relax my hand on the camera, then turn and look at the person to wait for them to finish taking the photos first before I take my turn to shoot so that everyone's eyeballs will be to my cam. Or when i see pple holding up their camera, I will politely ask them to put down their cam when I shoot (briefly explaining the simple reason behind it).
    Yes, but some persistent thick skinned uncle Bobs just, don't, get, it!

    You can stop and wait for them but some of them can really think they got the entitlement to shoot first, in the end the group subject's attention span is exhausted and the eyes just goes elsewhere again and the expression is not as great, because all exhausted by the 'photog' or worst, 'photogS' shooting before you.

    The main photog should always shoot first. Best to pre-communicate this issue to the B&G in advance IMHO, and work out non-warranties for these situations.

    2100 - wow it sounds like a really hard-to-work-with B&G family, that they even tried to wrangle money back from the hardworking wedding photog just based on that.
    WTB Manfrotto RC4 L Bracket

  15. #35

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by mariodoe View Post
    hi pple,

    really appreciate all the in-depth views and persectives from pro-photographers like Benjamin, SK, sjackal, nerdy77 and 2100. your kind explanation enlighten me greatly on the tough job of a wedding photographer. many thanks!

    well, i believed my initial ignorant has ignite some burning emotion and critical feedbacks from jasonB. i'm apologetic if my comments have offended you in any way.

    do let me position myself better to clear all misconceptions on me by jasonB.

    1) i've never said i'm expectionally great in photography and can match the hired pro out there in my post. i would have volunteer my service long before my fren has even approach his wedding photographer right? i noe where my ability lies and that's y i'm trying to learn by shooting more frequently as a background photographer.

    2) i'm sorry i've inappropiately phrase my sentence - "i noe my rights", i'm trying to say that i noe my own stance as a background photographer in not interfering the main photographer. i constantly keeping a look out if i'm blocking his view or positioning during the whole event. so i'm not stating i've my own "rights" in other's pple wedding. i'm still a sensible person.

    3) being a self-taught amateur, i'm just sincerely sourcing any opportunity to polish my skills. so i dun understand why you are so critical about me? did i hurt your pride as a pro-photographer? maybe it will be good if you could share with us your works, so we can learn from you too? thanks in advance!

    4) lastly, i'm just trying to understand the viewpoints from the pro-photographers about having additional photographer in the AD photoshooting. i'm glad and appreciative to receive many valuable views from the rest. nonetheless, i'm thankful for your reply which let me realize how others had viewed me so negatively.
    Hi, my input as a non-wedding photographer.

    In fact, my situation could be considered as opposite to yours as I was requested by some of my friends to take photographs for their weddings (both as main and "as casual backup").

    It could be because they know that I enjoy photography and are generous enough to trust me, but I declined to do so.

    Basically, it is my friends' big day, they deserve an accomplished pro doing the job, I don't view it as a chance for me to indulge in my hobby for personal gratification.

    You may have a point when you state that you know where and when to stand "without disturbing" the photographer, but you have to understand that this rule is not directed personally to you, it might be because of the photographer's prior unpleasant experiences elsewhere.

    It's great that you have the passion and interest in learning this genre of photography, maybe you can try and be an assistant to a wedding photographer for some assignments.
    Then there would not be an issue of being intrusion, and it might teach more tips and tricks on the profession.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    2100 - wow it sounds like a really hard-to-work-with B&G family, that they even tried to wrangle money back from the hardworking wedding photog just based on that.
    Well, that's the earlier lesson. Later I learnt never to accept cheques during return of DVD with the high-res images. I trusted them coz 40% deposit, then they paid up another 30% on AD (they didn't want to pay up all, well i usually recommend but don't insist), remaining 30% during return. It took me about 5 months to get my money back coz 2 of the cheques bounced (they issued another and mailed to me). Others don't even get it back, I heard.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2100 View Post
    Well, that's the earlier lesson. Later I learnt never to accept cheques during return of DVD with the high-res images. I trusted them coz 40% deposit, then they paid up another 30% on AD (they didn't want to pay up all, well i usually recommend but don't insist), remaining 30% during return. It took me about 5 months to get my money back coz 2 of the cheques bounced (they issued another and mailed to me). Others don't even get it back, I heard.
    With your volume, you might as well ask for full payment on every single jobs.

    I do get paid before I turn up, just make the whole process quicker. Then again, I digressz

  18. #38

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    With your volume, you might as well ask for full payment on every single jobs.

    I do get paid before I turn up, just make the whole process quicker. Then again, I digressz
    I do that now. Probably just 1 out of 10 or 20 would forget but pay up a couple of days later. Then 1 out of 50 would opt to pay during deliverables return. Generally not much defaulters after moving up a wee bit.
    The sub 800 market really cannot do one (unless if its weekday Mon - Thur plus its pretty low in profile, or 7-hr luncheons & start the day late at 9AM type).... even if its volume. Mentally shag + stress.
    Those types are for the studios, they handle the PR and are more pro.
    Last edited by 2100; 24th October 2010 at 10:44 PM.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    ah bian mentioned the possibility of learning through being an assistant to the wedding photog... usually what does this role entail?



    any of the pros want to share? as in what do you ask your assistant to do, assuming that you do employ one... or do most prefer to solo? (or don't see the need for one) curious to know

  20. #40

    Default Re: Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2100 View Post
    Well, that's the earlier lesson. Later I learnt never to accept cheques during return of DVD with the high-res images. I trusted them coz 40% deposit, then they paid up another 30% on AD (they didn't want to pay up all, well i usually recommend but don't insist), remaining 30% during return. It took me about 5 months to get my money back coz 2 of the cheques bounced (they issued another and mailed to me). Others don't even get it back, I heard.
    Sometimes, clients who paid deposits do forget to pay the balance on the actual day of event.
    Now I'm telling my client that the deliverables will only be ready XX days after the full balance is settled.

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