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Thread: Need to vent!!!

  1. #41
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by hotwork77 View Post
    I too am in business spanning Singapore and Down Under (not in photog business). I understand your point even more as I tend to come across clients like you mentioned ealier in the thread. Singapore Clients or Singaporeans for that matter tends to make comparison with other vendors and would squeeze more deliverable out from you at a fixed price or suggest a price cut at every opportunity. Which client wouldn't try their luck?

    Westerners tend to respect the contract more and would not indulge in that uncivilised manner.
    Speaking in a fairer tone, all(I mean all) my clients have increased their budget without me even asking when they needed more photographs to be submitted. This is the first but I'm damn sure it won't be the last Think I just got lucky all these while.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    There will always be this type of clients around. Some will respect your work and profession, some will just be downright cheapskate. The important thing is not to get emotional in the communication process (emails, text msg, phone calls, or even face to face). Got to compartmentalize our internal feelings and deal with the situation as diplomatic way as possible. And I'm still on the learning curve.
    Last edited by snowspeeder; 21st October 2010 at 02:09 PM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    In a consumer's point of view, i would greatly appreciate if you could explain why you think that your package is reasonable enough like what u explained in ur second email.

    I have prepared my quotation to you in accordance to a per photograph basis. If you were to divide $xxxx ($xxx + $xxx) equally among a set of xx photographs for both assignments, it will work out to $xxx per photograph. I would like to point out that my usual charges for assignments on a smaller scale like yours is about $xxx to $xxx per photograph so rest assure that you are enjoying very favourable rates as a first-time client. While I regret for not explaining the rationale of the quotation to you earlier, I trust that you appreciate that taking photographs is not merely an act of clicking the camera. The production of a finished photograph involves pain-staking prior planning and post editing as well. Since you did not raise any objection to the quotation submitted previously, I am merely standing by what was promised to you and am ready to deliver that promise.

    Else from your first reply, i would just assume that your are not interested and bo chap. Just my 2 cents. If u can put urself into other people's shoe, i think you should be able to understand.

    For example, you are buying a DSLR from a shop. However, u didnt ask for a discount, but u wanted the shop to maybe throw in a free batt or something similar. At this point of time, instead of explaining to your or what, the sales person told u, "Sorry, i am not selling the DSLR anymore. Please leave". How would u feel? Surely u will feel that this is NOT THE ONLY shop that is selling DSLR?
    Last edited by OoStarDustoO; 21st October 2010 at 02:20 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zichar View Post
    Stuff happens?

    The first reply can easily be construed as being curt, and as was mentioned in the above, it's very easy to lose the tone of the missive in emails
    I thought the explanation afterwards was very clear and detailed; I assume for brevity's sake the client wouldn't have been afforded that reply in the first place?
    That said, it's a good one to keep as a future template of sorts lol

    Curious myself: If the client returned with a 'favorable' response, i.e. wants to proceed, would you still do it?
    He could still possibly fall into the 'tried his luck, didn't work, so go ahead' category
    I won't do it. Like I said, I'd prefer to seal all doors than risk any complications half-way or worse towards the end of the assignment when most of the work had been completed. Call me short-sighted if you need to but I'll worry about "reputation" later on.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by hotwork77 View Post
    Maybe he got another vendor? Tried his luck with KIT and no luck so when 2nd vendor comes along he press for a lower cost and maximum deliverables. Never mind the standards are not the same cos his boss won't know or at least he hopes his boss wouldn't notice.
    Erm.... he is the boss...

  6. #46
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by OoStarDustoO View Post
    In a consumer's point of view, i would greatly appreciate if you could explain why you think that your package is reasonable enough like what u explained in ur second email.

    I have prepared my quotation to you in accordance to a per photograph basis. If you were to divide $xxxx ($xxx + $xxx) equally among a set of xx photographs for both assignments, it will work out to $xxx per photograph. I would like to point out that my usual charges for assignments on a smaller scale like yours is about $xxx to $xxx per photograph so rest assure that you are enjoying very favourable rates as a first-time client. While I regret for not explaining the rationale of the quotation to you earlier, I trust that you appreciate that taking photographs is not merely an act of clicking the camera. The production of a finished photograph involves pain-staking prior planning and post editing as well. Since you did not raise any objection to the quotation submitted previously, I am merely standing by what was promised to you and am ready to deliver that promise.

    Else i would just assume that your are not interested and bo chap. Just my 2 cents. If u can put urself into other people's shoe, i think you should be able to understand.
    I'm not really sure what you are asking. That was an explaination on the fees I offered. I assumed that the client thought that it was reasonable else he would have rejected it or not come back again a few months later to "re-activate" the project. I can offer you my views on why I think the fee is reasonable but that is pretty meaningless here since its highly subjective. The client should decide what's reasonable.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    I'm not really sure what you are asking. That was an explaination on the fees I offered. I assumed that the client thought that it was reasonable else he would have rejected it or not come back again a few months later to "re-activate" the project. I can offer you my views on why I think the fee is reasonable but that is pretty meaningless here since its highly subjective. The client should decide what's reasonable.
    What i am trying to say is, the problem is not with the fee, but on ur effort to explain/type more in ur reply. In ur first reply, ur reply is rather bo chap.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by OoStarDustoO View Post
    For example, you are buying a DSLR from a shop. However, u didnt ask for a discount, but u wanted the shop to maybe throw in a free batt or something similar. At this point of time, instead of explaining to your or what, the sales person told u, "Sorry, i am not selling the DSLR anymore. Please leave". How would u feel? Surely u will feel that this is NOT THE ONLY shop that is selling DSLR?
    In this instance, a better analogy would be its more like you are buying the camera at agreed price(or you have not bargained prior to proceeding to the cashier) but just when you are about to enter your ATM pin, you asked for a freebie......

  9. #49
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by OoStarDustoO View Post
    What i am trying to say is, the problem is not with the fee, but on ur effort to explain/type more in ur reply. In ur first reply, ur reply is rather bo chap.
    I've mentioned this before. Prior to submitting my quotation to the client months ago, I have sent him a details work plan outlining the scope of works which my quotation will entail.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    In this instance, a better analogy would be its more like you are buying the camera at agreed price(or you have not bargained prior to proceeding to the cashier) but just when you are about to enter your ATM pin, you asked for a freebie......
    Ya la. I know it's not so nice to ask for freebies during last minute, however in future, the sales person could reject the request politely instead of saying that he do not want to sell the cam anymore.

    I give u two examples:

    Example 1:
    Customer: I would like to get this DSLR from you.
    Sales person: That's great. Can we settle the payment at the counter?
    Customer: Sure. Let's go.
    At the counter
    Customer: Hi, perhaps before i make my payment, can u throw in a free battery for me?
    Sales person: I can't, and i am not selling you the cam too. Please leave.

    Example 2:
    Customer: I would like to get this DSLR from you.
    Sales person: That's great. Can we settle the payment at the counter?
    Customer: Sure. Let's go.
    At the counter
    Customer: Hi, perhaps before i make my payment, can u throw in a free battery for me?
    Sales person: I am sorry i can't. However, I assure you that our cams are at the most reasonable price, and that's why you came back to us again after looking around. If you are interested in an extra batt, i can offer you for the price of $xx.xx.

    No offence bro. But i am just thinking in term of a consumer's point of view. I am just thinking sometimes consumer just need to hear some nice words.
    Last edited by OoStarDustoO; 21st October 2010 at 02:36 PM.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    I won't do it. Like I said, I'd prefer to seal all doors than risk any complications half-way or worse towards the end of the assignment when most of the work had been completed. Call me short-sighted if you need to but I'll worry about "reputation" later on.
    Heh I can't call you short sighted lah
    Quite the contrary, it might, for the reasons you outline above, be the best business decision for you to take!
    Anyway, it would be your prerogative as the business owner and dare i say instincts, to (pre?)determine if the client will subsequently give you more hassle than would be worth it
    I would agree, some relationships are worth building on, others not so; I would certainly choose to build my reputation with those who are deserving of it as well
    -------------------------------
    Endure. In enduring grow strong.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by OoStarDustoO View Post
    No offence bro. But i am just thinking in term of a consumer's point of view. I am just thinking sometimes consumer just need to hear some nice words.
    if he can think from a consumer's point of view, u think he will vent here? Obviously this guy needs a course on PR management. But of course, nowadays, this field is filled with "drop a dollar shooters". You pay them more, they will shoot more. No questions asked. And for sure won't vent.

  13. #53
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zichar View Post
    Heh I can't call you short sighted lah
    Quite the contrary, it might, for the reasons you outline above, be the best business decision for you to take!
    Anyway, it would be your prerogative as the business owner and dare i say instincts, to (pre?)determine if the client will subsequently give you more hassle than would be worth it
    I would agree, some relationships are worth building on, others not so; I would certainly choose to build my reputation with those who are deserving of it as well
    Yes, exactly.

  14. #54
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by OoStarDustoO View Post
    Ya la. I know it's not so nice to ask for freebies during last minute, however in future, the sales person could reject the request politely instead of saying that he do not want to sell the cam anymore.

    I give u two examples:

    Example 1:
    Customer: I would like to get this DSLR from you.
    Sales person: That's great. Can we settle the payment at the counter?
    Customer: Sure. Let's go.
    At the counter
    Customer: Hi, perhaps before i make my payment, can u throw in a free battery for me?
    Sales person: I can't, and i am not selling you the cam too. Please leave.

    Example 2:
    Customer: I would like to get this DSLR from you.
    Sales person: That's great. Can we settle the payment at the counter?
    Customer: Sure. Let's go.
    At the counter
    Customer: Hi, perhaps before i make my payment, can u throw in a free battery for me?
    Sales person: I am sorry i can't. However, I assure you that our cams are at the most reasonable price, and that's why you came back to us again after looking around. If you are interested in an extra batt, i can offer you for the price of $xx.xx.

    No offence bro. But i am just thinking in term of a consumer's point of view. I am just thinking sometimes consumer just need to hear some nice words.
    I buy stuff too so I guess that makes me a consumer as well? What I believe in is fair trade. Believe me or not, I will not ask for more than what I pay for. If you give me more on your own accord, that's fine but I won't ask for more and not wanting to pay for the extras. Now put yourself in the shoes of someone running a business, wouldn't you want to be treated in a fair manner?

  15. #55

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    I buy stuff too so I guess that makes me a consumer as well? What I believe in is fair trade. Believe me or not, I will not ask for more than what I pay for. If you give me more on your own accord, that's fine but I won't ask for more and not wanting to pay for the extras. Now put yourself in the shoes of someone running a business, wouldn't you want to be treated in a fair manner?
    Since there is no stopping of other people to ask for more freebies, perhaps in future, again, you can reject that request politely.

    Anyway asking for more than what we pay for is a skill and is the rights of consumer.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by lancey View Post
    if he can think from a consumer's point of view, u think he will vent here? Obviously this guy needs a course on PR management. But of course, nowadays, this field is filled with "drop a dollar shooters". You pay them more, they will shoot more. No questions asked. And for sure won't vent.
    Hi Lancey, don't know why you're so angry at Kit for rebutting you.

    yes i do agree that maybe Kit was kinda harsh in his tone with his client. he ranted, and now he feels better. maybe it'll affect him, but really, what does this have to do with you till you get so riled up? it's his problem, not your's. his life, and the way he wants to live it.

    granted, yes, he didn't approach the client graciously, but i think he knows now what to do next time this happens. chill!

    anyways, i'm from the service industry, so i do know how some people like to bargain for extra stuff even if it's just a drop more of Vodka in their screwdriver. but of course, if it's the last bottle of Vodka and there's not a drop left, i would feel pissed if the customer insists on me going out to buy another bottle back and gave me that tone. but in the end i would have to suck it up and be nice.

    both parties have a part to play, but sometimes, the consumer is not right. i don't believe that the customer service staff has to pay for the customer's bad attitudes all the time. the more we let a customer gain a foothold, the more we'll lose out in the long run. if you turn Professional as a photographer, and your works are respected, i'm sure the clients will come.

    and hey. everyone be nice!

  17. #57

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    it's not what u do. It's HOW U SAY it to reject. Obviously u r not reading Stardust's examples..and obviously empathy-less as a person.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Kit,

    The things I like about you are:
    1. You sound "professional" and very proud of your works
    2. You have a no-nonsense sense of direction
    3. You hate people who want to try their luck with getting more mileage from any deals

    the bad thing about you is:
    You are rather arrogant which is bad for your long-term business.

    Normally I would stay clear from contractors who behave like you even though I am sure you will do a good job.

    Just my honest view.
    always the Light, .... always.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309 View Post
    Hi Lancey, don't know why you're so angry at Kit for rebutting you.

    yes i do agree that maybe Kit was kinda harsh in his tone with his client. he ranted, and now he feels better. maybe it'll affect him, but really, what does this have to do with you till you get so riled up? it's his problem, not your's. his life, and the way he wants to live it.

    !
    it's my words too. It's a public forum so i guess it's open to all comments, like how u r commenting on my comments now?
    Im not angry with his rebuttal, but i just have a soft spot for hypocrites..and call them out as i deem fit.

    y hypocrite? he would rather rant about an email which he rightly got than not to lose sleep when he knows others(me) won't recommend clients to him based on his email exchanges(brush offy, arrogant, PR-less).

    obviously he got so pissed he got screwed by his clients and is here looking for assurance. yes, it's his life. So why bother posting a rant?
    Last edited by lancey; 21st October 2010 at 03:10 PM.

  20. #60
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need to vent!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309 View Post
    Hi Lancey, don't know why you're so angry at Kit for rebutting you.

    yes i do agree that maybe Kit was kinda harsh in his tone with his client. he ranted, and now he feels better. maybe it'll affect him, but really, what does this have to do with you till you get so riled up? it's his problem, not your's. his life, and the way he wants to live it.

    granted, yes, he didn't approach the client graciously, but i think he knows now what to do next time this happens. chill!
    Let's not focus on the irrelevant stuff shall we?

    Thanks for your view though.

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