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Thread: Money versus Friends.

  1. #21
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by expro View Post
    I think it is the other way round. The copyright belong to the photographer, unless stated.
    Under SG copyrights law, is under "work for hired", so even TS received only $1, he will still kiss his photos goodbye.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights;
    Under SG copyrights law, is under "work for hired", so even TS received only $1, he will still kiss his photos goodbye.
    However, in TS case the rights belong to the studio that hire him for the jobs. TS still can not use the pictures for his portfolio without the consent of the studio.

    Many years ago, a Singapore base photograher(now a famous makan guru) sue a client for using some pictures for other uses then the original uses and won the case. This is a first in Singapore and it shock many pro photographers in Singapore.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by chngpe01 View Post
    It must be noted that these corporate professional beside the salary stated, there are actually earning more.

    eg.

    1. employees CPF contribution - comes in very handy when you get older or when repaying housing loan - (for a photog you really have to be discipline to set aside $ for CPF/savings that you cannot touch, if not you will regret when you get older.

    2. Medical benefit - medical/sick leave apart from full or partly subsidies medical or insurance. - (as a photog you have to pay for your own medical or insurance)

    3. 14 - 21 days fully paid annual leave (as a photog you can have go for a long leave but you will not be paid and yet have to spend $ - you cannot really plan you leave - your clients and business dictate your leave schedule)

    4. Being in the mainstream workforce, one can be promoted, upgrade professionally or even switch career/profession to advance in the career and command higher pay - (Can a $2k wedding photog who cannnot penetrate the $3-5k market find ways to increase his/her pay?)

    5. No need to pay office rental, computer, paper, pen stationary. (as a business owner photog - you have to pay for your equipment and spend $ to upgrade them periodically- again it comes from the $100-150k you earned )

    6. Good times or bad there is still pay, it is either more or less. Even if retrenched, still can find another job, it is a matter of whether more pay or good or bad job. (for a photog everyday you have to market and find assignment, good times more job - bad times also less job or even on certain months can be zero. One have to constantly find ways and means to bring food to the table)


    What I am saying here is that it is not that Rosy for a photog - if one do the calculation and have the discipline to plan for retirement(if there is even one and old age) one can get by. And every years as you grow older there will be younger ppl and part timers, moonlighters, armed with a camera and hopes will enter and undercut the market - one have to live with it.

    I have been on both side and I always tell my ex-colleagues to stick to their job unless they are prepared to slogged it out with no guarantee of success even after many years. Yes even to those who assisted me in my assignment or ask for advice as to be a pro photog.

    For me, many a times I am tempted to give up and go back to a steady job.
    Interesting....

    I have gotten an email a few days ago and it wrote:

    Dear Hart,

    I love your work...... Do you have a package that shoot for an hour and I just need all the high rest and no retouching needed for $100, just shoot and burn it on CD.

    Truthfully, I haven't got this type of email since I started some 2.5 years ago

    Of course, I did reply nicely explaining my work and charges. As you mentioned, $100 is not even enough to cover any cost, let alone producing work for my clients.

    It is of course up to the photographer to take the job or not, and the choice is obvious.

    On the other hand, you could profit from this trade if one is doing it right and plan it out correctly.

    The reason many people fail is not to have "unique product" and next to no idea how to communicate the product to their market.

    If the aim is to survive, it's too difficult.

    I am a firm believer of long term business planning and enjoy your work and run it like a business.

    When I first started, I made all the most common mistake that many have done and it was not easy and when I restart again, it is a lot easier now and a lot more enjoyable.

    Regards,

    Hart

  4. #24
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by expro View Post
    However, in TS case the rights belong to the studio that hire him for the jobs. TS still can not use the pictures for his portfolio without the consent of the studio.

    Many years ago, a Singapore base photograher(now a famous makan guru) sue a client for using some pictures for other uses then the original uses and won the case. This is a first in Singapore and it shock many pro photographers in Singapore.
    KF Seetoh has contract written, if not, he has no case.

    Ownership

    Generally, the person who created the work (i.e. the author) owns the copyright in the work. However, there are exceptions to this general rule. Some exceptions are:

    Employment: If the work is created by an employee pursuant to the terms of his employment, the employer owns the copyright in the work.

    Special situation for newspaper/magazine/periodical employees: Where an employee of a newspaper, magazine or periodical creates a literary, dramatic or artistic work pursuant to the terms of his employment and for the purpose of publication in a newspaper, magazine or periodical, the proprietor of the newspaper, magazine or periodical owns the copyright in respect of publication in or reproduction for the purpose of publication in any newspaper, magazine or periodical. The employee owns the remaining rights that make up the copyright bundle of exclusive rights.
    Commissioning: If a portrait/photograph/engraving is commissioned by another party, the commissioner owns the copyright in the work. If the portrait/photograph/engraving is required for a particular purpose, this purpose must be communicated to the commissioned party. While the commissioner is the copyright owner, the commissioned party has the right to stop others from doing any act comprised in the copyright, unless such act is done for the particular purpose for which the portrait/photograph/engraving is created.

    For other types of commissioned works, ownership belongs to the commissioned party, unless the commissioner and commissioned party otherwise agree.

    As mentioned in the introduction, the copyright owner may transfer his rights to another party or entity either partially or wholly.

    taken from http://www.ipos.gov.sg/leftNav/cop/O...and+Rights.htm

    and also this

    1. Copyright Copyright at Work
    I provide photography services. Do I own the copyright to the photos that I take for my clients? If I don't, is there any way that I can own the copyright? I want to showcase the best photos in my website and brochures.

    In general, clients who pay for your services own the copyright to the photos taken. However, you have limited rights in that if the photos are required for any particular purpose (e.g. a corporate client wants glamour shots of the senior management, to use in its annual report), your clients should tell you and you are entitled to prevent the photos from being used for other purposes.

    In practice, however, many photographers have their own terms of engagement with clients. The parties are free to have their own agreement, which automatically overrides the above default position. Thus, for example, you and your clients can mutually agree that you will own the copyright in the photos but that your clients can use the photos for certain purposes; or that your clients own the copyright but you have the license to reproduce the photos in your website and brochures.
    In simple words, photographers does not own the copyrights of the photographs, from the moment we collect money from the our customers, unless both parties enter an agreement to supersede the default law. (see the print in blue above)
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  5. #25
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    Interesting....

    I have gotten an email a few days ago and it wrote:

    Dear Hart,

    I love your work...... Do you have a package that shoot for an hour and I just need all the high rest and no retouching needed for $100, just shoot and burn it on CD.

    Truthfully, I haven't got this type of email since I started some 2.5 years ago

    Of course, I did reply nicely explaining my work and charges. As you mentioned, $100 is not even enough to cover any cost, let alone producing work for my clients.

    It is of course up to the photographer to take the job or not, and the choice is obvious.

    On the other hand, you could profit from this trade if one is doing it right and plan it out correctly.

    The reason many people fail is not to have "unique product" and next to no idea how to communicate the product to their market.

    If the aim is to survive, it's too difficult.

    I am a firm believer of long term business planning and enjoy your work and run it like a business.

    When I first started, I made all the most common mistake that many have done and it was not easy and when I restart again, it is a lot easier now and a lot more enjoyable.

    Regards,

    Hart
    another "I like your work but I can't pay your price, can we work out some solution?"

    what if ones go for a job interview, the boss tell him that likes what he see in the resume very much but only can pay half of the salary his is asking for.
    if this were you, will you take up the job?
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
    www.benjaminloo.com | iStock portfolio

  6. #26

    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    another "I like your work but I can't pay your price, can we work out some solution?"

    what if ones go for a job interview, the boss tell him that likes what he see in the resume very much but only can pay half of the salary his is asking for.
    if this were you, will you take up the job?
    My sentiment exactly.

    Hart

  7. #27

    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by chngpe01 View Post
    I have been on both side and I always tell my ex-colleagues to stick to their job unless they are prepared to slogged it out with no guarantee of success even after many years. Yes even to those who assisted me in my assignment or ask for advice as to be a pro photog.

    For me, many a times I am tempted to give up and go back to a steady job.
    I know what you mean. Sometimes its really all very vague and very difficult to itemise, as I have been in the corporate world for 12 years (extremely big MNC with HQ here) and PG for 6 years. I just find that if one is not in the correct job in the corporate world, it can be real hell. I see a lot of ill-treatment of senior aged staff here. Some may be able to get by with 1/2 the money and much less hell....while others can take it?

    A business can land one into bankruptcy if not done correctly, recently some F&B joints at 313, Cupid Jewels at OC is a good eg. I cannot confirm, but I think one of the highest paid wedding PG gotta drastically cut his rates recently also. Newbies blindly saying "Just do it...." have not gone through the hell of it like being complained by clients or even ngeow relatives/sisters who can sometimes be very "!@%!@#!@", and risk of being sued. These dirty laundry are never publicly aired, but sometimes if you can catch a glimpse of those threads in SW/SBs forums they can give you an idea.

    Employer's CPF, just auto add 15% or something lah....

  8. #28
    Moderator ed9119's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    OMG... $150 ..... I would just in-camera kick-up the contrast, saturation and sharpness levels and slap on a fill-in flash for insurance...... no need anymore PP

    even if its for experience.... this amount is really seriously bad..... I have a strange feeling about this 'friend' of yours........
    shaddap and just shoot .... up close
    Walkeast

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    First, you cannot blame your friend or the people hiring you. You did not allow them to know your expectations and you should not expect them to read your mind.

    Second, each individual's perception of paid photography services is different. Some demand more work for $150, some demand less for $300. You did not allow your friend or ask your friend about the pricing. Naturally the first instinct is to be $150. Do not expect that everything is perfect.

    Third, you do not put your friend and money together. Both do not exist on the same platform. If the hirer of your service screwed up, do you blame your friend? If you screwed up, will the hirer blame your friend? Either way, do it professionally so you do not put your friend in a spot.
    Last edited by theITguy; 13th October 2010 at 02:10 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Money versus Friends.

    definitely under-paid for the second job. Move on. But then again, if it's for the exposure and experience, does it really matter for a one-off job?

    know what's your worth and negotiate in future, if possible.

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