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Thread: Is Nudity Photography a taboo subject here?

  1. #21
    Moderator nightwolf75's Avatar
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    after reading all the posts, it reminds me of wat my prof used to teach us in sociology classes back at NUS. i took a module of 'deviance and social control' back in my 2nd year. wat interested me was how singaporeans are continually being facinated and digusted at the same time abt public (not pubic, as mentioned in the earlier thread. spelling error, CSers.... ) display of nudity.

    on one hand, we have singaporeans who goes "eeeeee...... so disgusting" when anyone display nudity or mentioned it over the media. yet, at the same time, these same people will have no qualms of going to sleazy HCs, geylang, batam, bintan etc... etc.... (just look at the recent channel U programme on health clubs in singapore...) and buy porno books or surf for porno pics online (a recent international survey found that singapore surfers ranks among the top surfers for internet porn....). so, go figure....

    actually, this debate is the same as the movie ratings debate. when the ratings first started abt 10+ yrs ago, we have a bunch of singaporeans up in arms abt the degrading of morals among singaporeans (these protesters are mainly chinese-ed people, as i found out during my module. i dun mean to offend any chinese-ed CSers, okie? this is just something i learnt...). yet, the funny thing was that, when the ratings allowed (back then) the influx of Cat III HK pornos being shown at places like yangtze, we see a funny scene of men lining up to go in with umbrellas! aren't these people the same ones who are up in arms over the loosening of morals in singapore??

    singaporeans have, and will continue to be facinated and digusted by nudity. same here in CS. guess it has partly to do with the way singapore is being governed and our culture. for ages, porno and nudity are illegal in singapore, except in 'sanctioned' places and in 'arts' (i put them in paranteses becos it is not clear where is 'sanctioned' and wat defines as 'art'). in our asian homes, nudity and sex are, generally, taboo topics not to be mentioned by cultured people or in an audience (of course, not only in singapore. dun believe me? search the news for a german couple who dunno how to have sex.... ) so, as amfibus mentioned, we really need to loosen up a bit.

    i agree the line bet nude shots and porn shots are a fine line indeed. all depends on the mentality of the viewer. of course, there are very obviously defined porn pics out there. however, there are some shots, like those we find on jap soft-porn sites, are so well taken that i would consider them as artistic nudes (ladies, pls dun me.... this is my honest opinion...). like amifibus said, shldn't we learn to critic such shots as we would to other pics, rather than view them as porn?

    just my $0.02...

    happy vesak day!
    If Life worked on auto mode then manual mode for photography would have never existed. ― Deeksha Mittal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amfibius

    Well it's YOUR country and YOUR forum. Hey, I might think 95% of you are excessively prudish and sometimes intolerably conservative, but I suppose it's my choice to want to come and visit this forum. Your attitudes towards nudity are your own to fix.

    To agape01, SO WHAT if the photos are "obscene"? You can criticize them like you would a normal photo! An "artistic" shot of a nude model with a cabbage on her head and carrots coming out her ears might appeal to me less than an "obscene" shot of another model showing full frontal nudity.

    Since when has exposing a little bit of breast harmed anybody? In fact, I think that this culture of secrecy with the guise of "protecting" our children is misguided. Children should be taught that our bodies are beautiful, and that we come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. In fact, if I have one criticism of most nude photographers is that they only want to shoot pictures of slim women or muscly men (well, mostly slim women). Nude images of fat women are usually joke images. Hardly anybody shoots normal men and women in the nude. Even fewer people want to photograph elderly men and women in the nude.

    Nude photography is the same as any other type of photography. There are cliche shots and there are excellent shots, just like 3/4 of the pictures posted here are cliched. I am not here to pass judgement about whether pictures are "obscene" or not, nor do I have time for the monkeys who do. The picture is either well-taken or poorly taken, it either fulfils its objective or it does not.

    In any case, it's your board. My comments won't change the way you think, but hopefully some of you will open your minds a little.
    The point here is how you would have an open space to display such work without offending others. It's may be your right to your own opinion about nude photography, and it's also unavoidable that there will be people that will be offended by it being publicly displayed. It's like the smoking issue that started a while back. Restricting smoking to certain areas and stuff. Smokers would say it's a infringement of their human rights, but what they haven't considered is that non-smokers has an equal right not to be affected by 2nd hand smoking. That's why we have non-smoking areas and smoking areas now. I'm quite a liberal person I think, and I'm all for nude photography to be publicly recognised. But I'm also friendly and chummy with everyone else. The question is how to do it in a way so that others wun get offended by it. It's always easy to say, " I didn't mean to offend anyone." But the thing here is, the offence is already done. Sometime, it's the end-result that matters, not the intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightwolf75
    after reading all the posts, it reminds me of wat my prof used to teach us in sociology classes back at NUS. i took a module of 'deviance and social control' back in my 2nd year. wat interested me was how singaporeans are continually being facinated and digusted at the same time abt public (not pubic, as mentioned in the earlier thread. spelling error, CSers.... ) display of nudity.

    on one hand, we have singaporeans who goes "eeeeee...... so disgusting" when anyone display nudity or mentioned it over the media. yet, at the same time, these same people will have no qualms of going to sleazy HCs, geylang, batam, bintan etc... etc.... (just look at the recent channel U programme on health clubs in singapore...) and buy porno books or surf for porno pics online (a recent international survey found that singapore surfers ranks among the top surfers for internet porn....). so, go figure....

    actually, this debate is the same as the movie ratings debate. when the ratings first started abt 10+ yrs ago, we have a bunch of singaporeans up in arms abt the degrading of morals among singaporeans (these protesters are mainly chinese-ed people, as i found out during my module. i dun mean to offend any chinese-ed CSers, okie? this is just something i learnt...). yet, the funny thing was that, when the ratings allowed (back then) the influx of Cat III HK pornos being shown at places like yangtze, we see a funny scene of men lining up to go in with umbrellas! aren't these people the same ones who are up in arms over the loosening of morals in singapore??

    singaporeans have, and will continue to be facinated and digusted by nudity. same here in CS. guess it has partly to do with the way singapore is being governed and our culture. for ages, porno and nudity are illegal in singapore, except in 'sanctioned' places and in 'arts' (i put them in paranteses becos it is not clear where is 'sanctioned' and wat defines as 'art'). in our asian homes, nudity and sex are, generally, taboo topics not to be mentioned by cultured people or in an audience (of course, not only in singapore. dun believe me? search the news for a german couple who dunno how to have sex.... ) so, as amfibus mentioned, we really need to loosen up a bit.

    i agree the line bet nude shots and porn shots are a fine line indeed. all depends on the mentality of the viewer. of course, there are very obviously defined porn pics out there. however, there are some shots, like those we find on jap soft-porn sites, are so well taken that i would consider them as artistic nudes (ladies, pls dun me.... this is my honest opinion...). like amifibus said, shldn't we learn to critic such shots as we would to other pics, rather than view them as porn?

    just my $0.02...

    happy vesak day!


    Not necessary chinese-ed.... Mr Liu Kang was educated in China, he advocate fine art, painted balinese nudes that's well accepted even in the 70s.

    Movie is different from still pics....we are talking about nudes as in still art. When (R) was introduced, so many lousy movie with nudity flood the movies...the theme is simply "show the movie goers plenty of breast" with no artistic value. That's why R(A) was introduced.

    It is the dual personality of Singaporean men, most want to live a very 'upright' life, at the same time want to lead a life on the 'dark side'

    I have friends who visit Geylang, Bankok, Batam etc. They never say "eeee....so digusting", on the other hand they still brag about it. So you shouldn't have said that those who reject nudity at the same time have no qualms going to these places, they may not be the same people, shouldn't make sweeping statement. Besides, seeing nudity and visiting these places is totally different kind of thing, you shouldn't have lumped them together.

    As for those soft porn pics that you mentioned, I also don't deny that I haven't seen them before. Theoretically speaking, they are indeed very well taken, exposure, sharpness, lighting etc. It's the poses and composition that makes a lot of difference.

    Even in U.K, recently there's an advert that was removed because of some sort of nudity. The reason is its expose to everyone. Nude art shouldn't be exposed to the underage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VampTreSS


    p/s: Anyone who's interested to do photography of such genre, do msg me. We could organise our own shoots..
    With the lack of appreciation for this particular form of art, it will also be much more difficult to find people who will pose for it Coz, sad to say, not many people dare to take the first step.

    I have tried engaging models for nude photography, but there are really not many who are willing to do it. Even if they are willing to do it, they will ask for $$$$$$$$.

    Nevertheless, I personally believe (and what I always tell my photog students) is the nude photography is the most difficult subject to approach.

    Most difficult to approach not because of the taboo revolving it but the human body is the most difficult to shoot.

    (1) The body posture is extremely important as it has to represent the character of the model, vision of the photographer & yet remain eye-catching & interesting to the viewer.

    (2) Lighting is vital as it has to accentuate the line and curves of the human body.

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    I'm sure everyone here has seen the bodyscapes pictures, now thats art !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aton
    Not necessary chinese-ed.... Mr Liu Kang was educated in China, he advocate fine art, painted balinese nudes that's well accepted even in the 70s.

    Movie is different from still pics....we are talking about nudes as in still art. When (R) was introduced, so many lousy movie with nudity flood the movies...the theme is simply "show the movie goers plenty of breast" with no artistic value. That's why R(A) was introduced.

    It is the dual personality of Singaporean men, most want to live a very 'upright' life, at the same time want to lead a life on the 'dark side'

    I have friends who visit Geylang, Bankok, Batam etc. They never say "eeee....so digusting", on the other hand they still brag about it. So you shouldn't have said that those who reject nudity at the same time have no qualms going to these places, they may not be the same people, shouldn't make sweeping statement. Besides, seeing nudity and visiting these places is totally different kind of thing, you shouldn't have lumped them together.

    As for those soft porn pics that you mentioned, I also don't deny that I haven't seen them before. Theoretically speaking, they are indeed very well taken, exposure, sharpness, lighting etc. It's the poses and composition that makes a lot of difference.

    Even in U.K, recently there's an advert that was removed because of some sort of nudity. The reason is its expose to everyone. Nude art shouldn't be exposed to the underage.

    haha... no lah. i dun mean to tar all chinese-ed people abt their dual-views. besides, wat my prof said is my prof's views. come to think of it, it did raise a lot of discussion during the tutorial when this point was bought up...

    anyway, my point is that singaporeans who go 'eeee.... so disgusting' every time something like this is raised up shld ask themselves why. i hope it's something we ask ourselves here too, in CS.
    If Life worked on auto mode then manual mode for photography would have never existed. ― Deeksha Mittal

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    Quote Originally Posted by drebel
    mmm.. sorry cant help but OT a bit... why are they called 'private parts' but with 'public hairs'?? strange english, no wonder mine still so lousy..
    it's not public hair, it's pubic hair.

    its named after that part of the body, the pubic region. it's the name of the bones or something like that.

  8. #28
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    Default Photographer Nude

    I'll sidetrack a bit.. hehe. Have you all tried taking photographs nude? As in the nude photographer. "And its works!" No joke!

    Ok wat....

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    How about National Geogrpaphic's topless pics of African/Amazonian women ? Those arent porn rite ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by reno77
    How about National Geogrpaphic's topless pics of African/Amazonian women ? Those arent porn rite ?
    It's porn if you think it's porn. It's all up to the mentality of the person seeing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    The point here is how you would have an open space to display such work without offending others.
    Ah, the second killer of self-expression - fear of offending somebody

    WHO CARES if you have offended somebody in pursuit of your art! If you think that your artistic vision is fulfilled, does it really matter if everyone else is too myopic to see? Of course, in all likelihood if your art is hated then you are probably a crap artist, but if people like Mahler, Wagner, Prokofiev, Picasso, Goya, Bizet, and countless other artists lived in fear of offending others and produced "art" in pursuit of public acceptance then our culture wouldn't be as advanced today, would it?

    In fact what you WOULD get is a Californian type culture, where the arts have been subsumed by commercialism. Music is produced by corporations for mass consumption by undemanding consumers. Film is tailored by market research before multimillion investments are made to milk the consumer. Pop culture is all about short attention span, lowest common denominator, mass market appeal. It is aimed at simple people with disposable income. There is rarely any satisfaction for the thinking consumer.

    And in the case of this forum, our creativity is stifled by this irrational fear of offending other people.

    It must be something about the crowded, suffocating lives that Singaporeans grow up in, living so close to neighbours that you can hear what TV programs they are watching. It may be the regimented lifestyles, the stamping out of individuality in schools and then in national service in early adulthood, the strictly heirarchial system in schools, families, workplaces, and politics. Why so much fear of expressing your individuality? Maybe it's because there is so much pressure to "fit in"?

    Don't get me wrong - art does not have to be provocative, it just has to say something. It's just that sometimes what we have to say is provocative.

    (BTW, if you visit my pbase and find the pictures disappointing - that's because i'm not a good artist!)
    Last edited by Amfibius; 2nd June 2004 at 06:24 PM.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amfibius
    Ah, the second killer of self-expression - fear of offending somebody

    WHO CARES if you have offended somebody in pursuit of your art! If you think that your artistic vision is fulfilled, does it really matter if everyone else is too myopic to see? Of course, in all likelihood if your art is hated then you are probably a crap artist, but if people like Mahler, Wagner, Prokofiev, Picasso, Goya, Bizet, and countless other artists lived in fear of offending others and produced "art" in pursuit of public acceptance then our culture wouldn't be as advanced today, would it?

    In fact what you WOULD get is a Californian type culture, where the arts have been subsumed by commercialism. Music is produced by corporations for mass consumption by undemanding consumers. Film is tailored by market research before multimillion investments are made to milk the consumer. And in the case of this forum, our creativity is stifled by this irrational fear of offending other people.

    It must be something about the crowded, suffocating lives that Singaporeans grow up in, living so close to neighbours that you can hear what TV programs they are watching. It may be the regimented lifestyles, the stamping out of individuality in schools and then in national service in early adulthood, the strictly heirarchial system in schools, families, workplaces, and politics. Why so much fear of expressing your individuality? Maybe it's because there is so much pressure to "fit in"?

    Don't get me wrong - art does not have to be provocative, it just has to say something. It's just that sometimes what we have to say is provocative.

    (BTW, if you visit my pbase and find the pictures disappointing - that's because i'm not a good artist!)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Amfibius
    Ah, the second killer of self-expression - fear of offending somebody

    WHO CARES if you have offended somebody in pursuit of your art! If you think that your artistic vision is fulfilled, does it really matter if everyone else is too myopic to see? Of course, in all likelihood if your art is hated then you are probably a crap artist, but if people like Mahler, Wagner, Prokofiev, Picasso, Goya, Bizet, and countless other artists lived in fear of offending others and produced "art" in pursuit of public acceptance then our culture wouldn't be as advanced today, would it?

    In fact what you WOULD get is a Californian type culture, where the arts have been subsumed by commercialism. Music is produced by corporations for mass consumption by undemanding consumers. Film is tailored by market research before multimillion investments are made to milk the consumer. Pop culture is all about short attention span, lowest common denominator, mass market appeal. It is aimed at simple people with disposable income. There is rarely any satisfaction for the thinking consumer.

    And in the case of this forum, our creativity is stifled by this irrational fear of offending other people.

    It must be something about the crowded, suffocating lives that Singaporeans grow up in, living so close to neighbours that you can hear what TV programs they are watching. It may be the regimented lifestyles, the stamping out of individuality in schools and then in national service in early adulthood, the strictly heirarchial system in schools, families, workplaces, and politics. Why so much fear of expressing your individuality? Maybe it's because there is so much pressure to "fit in"?

    Don't get me wrong - art does not have to be provocative, it just has to say something. It's just that sometimes what we have to say is provocative.

    (BTW, if you visit my pbase and find the pictures disappointing - that's because i'm not a good artist!)
    In my opinion, what you have posted above are simply easy excuses. You are mixing self-expression with art. What got offending other people have to do with artistic expression? And above all, why does it have to be a fear to not offend people? When I offer my hand to shake another person's, it's not because I'm afraid that he will be offended, it's because I respect him as a stranger. The point is, not offending people doesn't necessary mean that you are fitting in. And even if you are fitting in, it doesn't mean you will stop being creative. You can be a piece in a 5000 jigsaw puzzle, but you can be neon green or whatever colour you like. Every other piece can be any colour they want to be. All the pieces still form a complete jigsaw puzzle, you simply get a heck of a picture.

    I don't where you picked up the term Californian culture, but the truth is commercializing of the arts is everywhere and it has been around for a very long time. Maybe for all the great names that you have mentioned, personal artistic achievement have been an significant part of their musical direction, but it will be simply be just patronising them if you do not think they do it for monetary gains or public recognition. They may not do it with for public acceptance, but they definitely have the idea of sharing their artistic talents so that people can ENJOY their music. You draw a picture on the wall with spraypaint. You think it's art, the policeman comes along and tell you it's graffiti, the next man who comes along will tell you its a sign pointing to the nearest toilet. What I mean is, there's good art, and there's bad art, and what the public don't recognise as art, is simply just an expression of form. Part of art is acceptance by others that it is of aesthetic value. Art may be a form of self-expression, but self-expression may not be art.

    After I what said above, I want to ask what's wrong with the commercialization? So what if it means short attention span, tailored to fit and mass market appeal? It simply means that more people get to experience more for any period of time. What's wrong even if it's meant for simple with disposable income? It still an art simply because people enjoy it for what it is and accept it as so. No satisfaction for the thinking consumer? If it's thinking consumers that you are talking about, why couldn't they satisfy themselves with their own simulation? If the thinking consumers were really thinking, they wouldn't be waiting for people to come up with things to satisfaction. That's part of really being creative.

    And I dun see how living in cramp conditions is that important in shaping creativity. I've lived in Tokyo for a while. You have 33 million people squeezed inside an area only 5 time the size of Singapore. You do the maths. You don't just hear what TV program your neighbour is watching, you can hear the neighbour of your neighbour watching the Hanshin Tigers strike a homerun on TV. Something about a regimental life? Tell that to a people who wakes at 5, take the 5.37am train downtown, get off at their stop, get into the office, swipe their cards before 8:30am in time to do morning exercise with your colleagues at your table. Work, work work, leaving your desk only at teabreaks and to go photocopy your docs. Sheesh, it's even taboo to knock off before the guy next to you does. Stifling politics? Tell that to the 20% of Japanese voters who don't bother to vote, the 40% who votes for the LDP simply because they have been doing it since they turn 19 and thinks it's the right thing to do, the 25% LDP party members and the 15% opposition supporters. The LDP is still in power after so long, simply because many voters don't know what they are doing or they simply don't care (That's what I think). The government there is like 10 times more bureaucratic than ours. Still would we dare to say that the Japanese are less creative than us? Being in a cramped and crowded simply provide more stimulant for the creative mind because of the myriad mix of people, material and events. If you spend your life living alone in a wide open plain, from where are you going to get your inspiration? It all depends on how you treat your environment and how you choose to view it.

    The stamping down of individuality is achieved only if you allow it to be. If you are restricted in some way, no one is going to stop from trying out other ways. Pressure to fit in stifle creativity only when you give in. On the other hand, pressure to 'fit out' don't promote creativity either.

    I honestly agree with you that art don't have to be provocative, it just have to say something, and sometimes it can be provocative. But I think that it has to say something meaningful. Being provocative just for the sake of it, isn't art, it's simply self expression. It's a different thing altogether.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amfibius
    Since when has exposing a little bit of breast harmed anybody? In fact, I think that this culture of secrecy with the guise of "protecting" our children is misguided. Children should be taught that our bodies are beautiful, and that we come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

    In any case, it's your board. My comments won't change the way you think, but hopefully some of you will open your minds a little.
    This is not a personal attack on Amfibius, but to those who share the same idea as presented in the above paragraph, that we are 'protecting' our children:

    Tell me then, at what age should I strip and show my daughter and my son the correct anatomy, and at what age should I demonstrate love making to my children. If you have your own children, I'm sure you'll already know the answer. If you do not, maybe you can suggest the suitable age and then adhere to it for yourself.

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    I believe the reason Japan is more creative than us is because they allow pornography there. As Maslow's needs theory states, the basic needs must be met before others. Porn is a basic need. Once the public is allowed access to it they will be satisfied and move on to the next part of their needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yowch
    Tell me then, at what age should I strip and show my daughter and my son the correct anatomy, and at what age should I demonstrate love making to my children. If you have your own children, I'm sure you'll already know the answer. If you do not, maybe you can suggest the suitable age and then adhere to it for yourself.
    I'll respond to prismatic's rather lengthy post later

    This is an easy question: start appearing naked in front of your children as soon as they're born. I grew up seeing my parents naked. My dad would take us swimming at the club and then we'd go into the shower together. I did this between the age of 3 till I was old enough to shower by myself. My mum would get changed in front of us and we thought nothing of it.

    My folks never appeared naked in front of my grandparents, but I have seen my grandparents naked too.

    And before you ask, i've seen my sister and my cousins in the buff ... well at least until before puberty.

    As for making love in front of your children ... that's one thing my parents never did, and I would never do. There's a certain line to be drawn.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by yowch
    This is not a personal attack on Amfibius, but to those who share the same idea as presented in the above paragraph, that we are 'protecting' our children:

    Tell me then, at what age should I strip and show my daughter and my son the correct anatomy, and at what age should I demonstrate love making to my children. If you have your own children, I'm sure you'll already know the answer. If you do not, maybe you can suggest the suitable age and then adhere to it for yourself.
    The correct age for me would be Primary 3 but that was in the 80s kids nowadays are more mature. I learnt about it by reading a human anatomy book in my school.

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    Default Nudity ...

    Hiee...

    Here are some my thoughts on this Nudity and stuff.... . As CS is a locally based website with its own rules and regulations, i think it just make sens to users to adhere to its rules and guidelines.

    Some users may feel that the guidelines in areas such as Nudity Photography may be too stringent, well....rules are rules.

    If one feels that its boring, or out-dated, etc....well....there are other photogrpahy forums that would accept all types of photography....... just type "nude photography forum" in any of the search engine and there you go.

    Nudity is seen in may different ways in different parts of this little globe. Some parts of the world, it may be a culture, some parts it may be a taboo, while some parts may see it as art, and some parts may be seen bad etc.

    What makes you think that countries, that see Nudity as art, will have its society accepting it 100% and make it available for all young and old 24/7.
    They do have regulations and restrictions - all defined by their own country.

    Take Korea for example, in parks and family places, they have nude life size statues and sculptures depicting the beauty of women.....but you dont see TV shows in primetime showing nudity......BUT.....after normal family viewing hours, they do have adult rated movies which may be telecast on normal channels right up till morning.

    They do have program ratings on these ......and these TV ratings are means of regulations that suites their culture and people....

    So for CS, being a locally based web portal, i think it does has its own restrictions and regulations, in line with the society.....here...

    Well...since i was a little swimming tadpole like thingy that this topic has been debated.....it will go on and on and on....


    rgds,
    sulhan

  19. #39

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    Oh. By the way, I am learning bodyscape(artistic nude photography) soon. Anyone want to join me? Of course with model....

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by yowch
    Tell me then, at what age should I strip and show my daughter and my son the correct anatomy, and at what age should I demonstrate love making to my children.
    Wah, I can't imagine being so liberal with my children.

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