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Thread: Being ignorant is good (photography)

  1. #41

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post
    I will comment in this case, since she is buying a DSLR for the seek of getting better photo, she should at least know some basic. She thought night shots should use highest possible ISO.

    So I should just keep quiet and let her keep repeating this mistake?

    I won't say out if she takes using a pns. Different purpose of getting camera.
    well, you must also play it by ear. people are all different.

    we don't know how open or close you are to her. or how well you know her, or how she is. let's put it this way, if they are headstrong, and you are just taking pleasure in poking their sandcastles in air, then there is no point. believe me, it will make no difference to her what you say.

    if she is really earnest about taking good photos, then you can put it nicely to her. the worst way possible to convey your feelings is to sneer and then say that you have seen better photographs. one way of doing it is to show her many beautiful photos, without saying anything. if she asks more, then you can elaborate about how to go about doing it.

    if you think about it, essentially if she takes a night shot handheld with iso 1600, it will still be of better quality with pns camera.

    give it some time, we've all been through the stage where we looked at cleaner shots from dslr and go WA IQ SO GOOD. after a while when you keep seeing better composed shots, etc.. (assuming that you DO care about composition) then that unrequired awe will fade away.

    there are many ways to go about doing things. whether right or wrong, really starts with one's attitude and intentions. are you looking to be a office photography guru? or are you concerned about your colleague's improper approach to photography? you have to ask yourslef. if it is the former, then you need to reflect upon yourself, that is my feeling. there are better valued things in life to pursue then to gain a following of admirers, etc.

    i do consider an audience when i shoot, but i feel happy when i shoot. to be honest, no one believes me when i tell them that i would be just as happy without a camera, sometimes the camera is just an excuse to be there, witnessing the beautiful light, remembering the most briliant moment of the day that always changes.

    someone here once said that if you can't smile when you shoot, or when you partake in photography as a hobby, then you should think about where you've gone wrong. i wholly agree with this.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post
    I've very high demand for myself, as I said, none of my photos are ok to me. I feel inferior when I see good pics from others .
    there is no need to compare to others.

    photos will never do justice to the beautiful moments, we can only work to getting as close to the real thing as we can.

    compare with yourself. look at yourself a week ago, a month ago, a year ago. how far have you gone? have you gotten happier? have you produced pictures you are a bit happier with?

  3. #43
    Senior Member ZerocoolAstra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post
    I will comment in this case, since she is buying a DSLR for the seek of getting better photo, she should at least know some basic. She thought night shots should use highest possible ISO.

    So I should just keep quiet and let her keep repeating this mistake?

    I won't say out if she takes using a pns. Different purpose of getting camera.
    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post
    I've very high demand for myself, as I said, none of my photos are ok to me. I feel inferior when I see good pics from others, especially pics from night86mare.
    don't be sad la...
    I kinda get what you're feeling. Once you have "opened your eyes", it's hard to overlook certain things....

    There have been a lot of comments already in this thread.

    I would just like to add my point that it's commendable you want to help your friend improve her photography, since she bought a DSLR and hence you expect a higher standard from her in future.
    Perhaps you can encourage her to go on a photo outing with you, or if you happen to be shooting side-by-side and she prefers your photos, then you should use the 'soft method' and encourage her instead of pointing out mistakes.

    But it's all about expectations. If your friend is genuinely happy to take such photos, then let her be. Try to improve your own photography and maybe you can inspire her one day!
    Exploring! :)

  4. #44

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    TS. Generally, for me, if they are happy with the photo, I will leave them be.

    However, looking from another point of view from most reply here and somewhat similar to TS thoughts, have anyone thought about the story of "Emperor and his new clothes". Is it ok to let your friends parade around "n@ked" thinking they have the finest "clothes" on?
    Personally, if they like...I will let them be....
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  5. #45

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post
    I don't understand why the comments of me being sour grapes.

    Can I put it this way:
    The photos I saw can be better, technical wise.

    We have a first impression about a photo or a person, there will be something that catch our attention at the very first sight. The terrible noise gets to me before anything else, I don't think sour grape got anything to do here...
    I don't think the term sour grapes is justified, maybe perfectionist ...I do not detect any hint of jealousy but a strong urge that every photo should be technically perfect.
    Nothing wrong with that, except we don't live in a perfect world.

    My 7 year old dotter recently expressed an interests in photography, passed her one of my old PnS cam and she experimented with it, when we viewed the results, my wife was full of praise for her OOF, badly composed shots. I had exactly the same thoughts as you on her pictures that had every single technical fault ! ...correcting and pointing out her mistakes might put her off photography, so I joined my wife in singing praises...
    To her, it matter zitch how technically inferior the pictures is, most important point is that it's a "picture" of her favourite soft toy, her school bag, etc. I had no right to spoilt it by telling her that it's badly taken. ...it's a superior photograph in the eyes of a 7 year old.

    Hopefully when she's older, she will come to her old man and ask the whys and hows to make her photos better.

  6. #46
    Senior Member ZerocoolAstra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostfit View Post
    I don't think the term sour grapes is justified, maybe perfectionist ...I do not detect any hint of jealousy but a strong urge that every photo should be technically perfect.
    Nothing wrong with that, except we don't live in a perfect world.

    My 7 year old dotter recently expressed an interests in photography, passed her one of my old PnS cam and she experimented with it, when we viewed the results, my wife was full of praise for her OOF, badly composed shots. I had exactly the same thoughts as you on her pictures that had every single technical fault ! ...correcting and pointing out her mistakes might put her off photography, so I joined my wife in singing praises...
    To her, it matter zitch how technically inferior the pictures is, most important point is that it's a "picture" of her favourite soft toy, her school bag, etc. I had no right to spoilt it by telling her that it's badly taken. ...it's a superior photograph in the eyes of a 7 year old.

    Hopefully when she's older, she will come to her old man and ask the whys and hows to make her photos better.
    you meant daughter, right?

    yeah, i'm not sure where all the 'sour grapes' comments came from. I did not get that from the first post. Goes to show how words without expression and tone can sometimes be misinterpreted.

    to you...
    Exploring! :)

  7. #47

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post
    I will comment in this case, since she is buying a DSLR for the seek of getting better photo, she should at least know some basic. She thought night shots should use highest possible ISO.

    So I should just keep quiet and let her keep repeating this mistake?
    Bro, did you correct her about her misconception on shooting at the highest ISO for night scenery?

    I am curious to know: did you correct/teach her on some of the basic of a DSLR?
    always the Light, .... always.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    I suggestion you need to ask yourself these question

    1) Am I promoting the art of photography to her? If yes, is she interested in the first place?
    2) Does she want to learn photography or just shoot as she please? If she just want to shoot as she please and she's ok with it, then there's nothing you could do. Its her camera not yours. You can't force her to do what you think you like while she doesn't like.
    If she want to learn start with the basic and slowly tell her. Not demoralize her right in her face. Its hurting to a female if you do that. Of course as male, we are not as sensitive as female so care must be taken when you tell them certain things.
    3) Are you forcing your expectation of photography onto her just because she is holding onto a DSLR? By doing that, you are making things worst for the both of you. Everybody has a choice to follow or not. By holding a DSLR, it does not mean she has to be a pro in return, many teenage girls also hold a DSLR nowadays but that does not mean they will or want to be a pro. They just want to shoot nicer photo than Compact Camera.
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Replying to night86mare, she use 6400 for all night shots. She wants to learn, buy magazines to read but it seems she don't have a clear direction on where to start. I tell her to know the basics first, try my best to explain, went for a shoot with her once.

    Compare my photos taken months back and now, there's some improvements, don't know what am I shooting last time.

  10. #50
    Senior Member ZerocoolAstra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post
    Replying to night86mare, she use 6400 for all night shots. She wants to learn, buy magazines to read but it seems she don't have a clear direction on where to start. I tell her to know the basics first, try my best to explain, went for a shoot with her once.

    Compare my photos taken months back and now, there's some improvements, don't know what am I shooting last time.
    if your friend is interested and willing to learn, I think that is more than half the "battle" won.
    but be gentle
    as skylover said, we must at all times try to be encouraging rather than critical. It's a hobby after all, and hobbies are for enjoyment.
    Last edited by ZerocoolAstra; 6th August 2010 at 11:12 AM. Reason: spelling error
    Exploring! :)

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post
    Replying to night86mare, she use 6400 for all night shots. She wants to learn, buy magazines to read but it seems she don't have a clear direction on where to start. I tell her to know the basics first, try my best to explain, went for a shoot with her once.

    Compare my photos taken months back and now, there's some improvements, don't know what am I shooting last time.
    Go with her more times. Dont explain but show her "it is a better pic?" technique, and if she is interested in achieving your definition of good pic then probably she will ask what are the settings. Things would be better to learn by thinking rather than listening. Some are quite repulsive to learning as they treat those teaching them "inferior". Some due to ego and some due to age.

    Btw, all of us embarked on different learning routes for photography, please dont insist your way is correct especially for newbies if you are still not competent enough. Do so only when you have revelation on what is photography and how to get that perfect shot everytime.

  12. #52
    Senior Member Leong23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Maybe you should ask yourself what actually upset you?

    1.) Your friend have a DSLR but don't know the basic?
    2.) Your friend photo is not up to standard but getting lot of praises in her FB.

    Then ask yourself again why should you bother?

    1.) Because you felt that you have the obligation to correct others mistake?
    2.) Because you know some basic and feel more superior?

    If nothing bother you, then just move on and focus on yourself.

    If you can't move on, and need some help on that. Post some of your master pieces here, many people will be very helpful to help you to move on.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post
    Recently, I found that being ignorant is good at times, some incidents make me thinking if I did the right thing.


    My reason for starting this thread is because of comments about photographs from my colleagues.

    1st incident:
    1 of them bought a DSLR for trip to europe, she know nuts about photography. When she came back, she show everyone her winning shot. It's a cityscape with a building (probably a church) that stands out from the rest due to its height and lighting. Everyone sing praises about the shot and keep saying it's a masterpiece, even after a few weeks. When I first look at it, I shouted out, 'Oh, why is it so noisy!? what was the ISO setting?' Then I find out it's at ISO6400, at this ISO, photo is very noisy, details are lost, colours are washed out. Colleagues don't understand what I mean even when I point out to them, noise is very obvious but they just can't see it. This photo is set as desktop wallpaper in my colleague's workstation.
    .
    .
    .
    They tell me there is no difference in quality for photos taken with DSLR and a pns, even if it's shooting the same thing. What I can easily see in most their photos are blown highlights/shadows, artificial colours, poor bokeh.


    I wonder if it's better if I don't learn at all, continue using pns and be easily satisfied with my shots. Anyone got such experience/thinking before?
    I am happy for you in that you can distinguish those defects in a photo. This shows that you are acquiring the knowledge in judging what makes a good photograph.

    As to your colleagues praising the shot as a masterpiece, we don't see it here, so we can't comment on it. It could very well be a "human relations" kind of thing in the office(they are much closer in term of relationship), or it may be that she was just lucky to be at the right place & the right time to take that shot(although exposure-wise, it may not be that good if judged by a more experienced photographer).

    Anyway, why bother?

    JUst treat it that you have gained better judgement in photography. NOt everyone appreciates what a good photo looks like.
    Last edited by johnlim; 6th August 2010 at 01:38 PM.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by pchmj View Post

    My reason for starting this thread is because of comments about photographs from my colleagues.

    1st incident:


    4th incident:
    photos which I saw was soft and have very poor bokeh due to using it wide open.
    Anyone got such experience/thinking before?
    Not sure what you meant by poor bokeh due to using it wide open..? you mean stopping it down will give better bokeh? strange no one commented on this.. hmm.......

    Anyway, back to topic.. especially in relation to 1st incident..

    Have you even had this experience or encounter.. say, you do a photoshoot with your friends colleagues with your DSLR. You felt the pictures were nice, well composed, well exposed, and well focused and sharp and clean.. simply nice.. better then any of their album collections that you have seen before..

    Then after you pass them the CD, maybe they say it's nice, maybe they have no comments..

    Then, you check their FB, blog, whatever.. and not 1 of your masterpieces were put up.. instead, they continue to upload new pictures taken with their PnS, Handphones.. mostly OOF, under/over exposed, noisy, distorted features.. whatever..

    Why????? Do they not like your pictures? is your picture no good..? Why they prefer handphone pictures then "more professionally done" pictures..

    Sometimes.. just have to accept that different pple likes different things lah.... what you feel is good, pple may not appreciate.. just accept it lor..

    Add: Found NM's example very good.. some fashion expert can tell you that you wear like this like that very nice very "in" very stylo.. but end of the day you still wear your t-shirt and shorts pants..
    Last edited by Limsgp; 6th August 2010 at 05:21 PM.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    knowing the technicalities doesn't mean u can bring out a gd photo.

    I'm not pointing anything at you TS, jus a general statement.

    i find this statement very true in art. I know of a local pro musician, very technical but he's playing isn't musical at all.

    tht's the eauty of art, it isn't about how much you know but on how can you express yourself, of cus dnt get me wrg that technicalities isn't impt but a balance is impt

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    By the TS' definition, all lomographers are bad photographers.....

    Technically good does not equate to good photography. The shots the TS mentioned can capture an audience in the office despite its technical flaws. Would you prefer this versus technically good ones that does not? I guess its different strokes for different folks.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZerocoolAstra View Post
    you meant daughter, right?

    yeah, i'm not sure where all the 'sour grapes' comments came from. I did not get that from the first post. Goes to show how words without expression and tone can sometimes be misinterpreted.

    to you...
    You are right, my apologies for shortform spelling it as dotter ...too used to it at the other forum I frequent and kinda took it for granted.

    Actually, 90% of the flaming and arguments on the forums are due to words without expression and tone being misinterpreted. We certainly don't see this happenning with meetings in groups among total strangers.

    Thanks for the kudos but I'm just trying to be like any other parent raising their kids, nothing special.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    TS seems to be unwilling or unable to answer my questions ...

    Bro, did you correct her about her misconception on shooting at the highest ISO for night scenery?

    I am curious to know: did you correct/teach her on some of the basic of a DSLR?


    this speaks much about TS's intention on his opening of this thread
    always the Light, .... always.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised View Post
    TS seems to be unwilling or unable to answer my questions ...

    Bro, did you correct her about her misconception on shooting at the highest ISO for night scenery?

    I am curious to know: did you correct/teach her on some of the basic of a DSLR?


    this speaks much about TS's intention on his opening of this thread
    I got reply in some way but did not quote.

    I tell her using high ISO for night scenery is not right, better to use low ISO but got to be careful since shutter speed will be low. She told me she got something to rest her camera on and she use it for the ISO6400 shot.

    I did teach her basics of DSLR, what is exposure, how to use metering, how to select focus point, but that is after her trip. There was no time before the trip.

    My purpose for this thread is trying to say my learning journey makes me notice obvious technical flaws before anything else and this is a bad thing, it's affecting me. So much so I can't enjoy as much as them.
    Last edited by pchmj; 7th August 2010 at 04:19 PM.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Being ignorant is good (photography)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus View Post
    By the TS' definition, all lomographers are bad photographers.....

    Technically good does not equate to good photography. The shots the TS mentioned can capture an audience in the office despite its technical flaws. Would you prefer this versus technically good ones that does not? I guess its different strokes for different folks.
    This is not what I meant...

    I prefer photos that can capture an audience rather than those with technical flaws, lomo included. It's just that obvious flaws gets my attention first. I do like grainy b&w photos.
    Last edited by pchmj; 7th August 2010 at 04:17 PM.

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