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Thread: Banding issue with ND filters

  1. #21

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    and then when i google k20d eyepiece cap, the good folks at pentaxforums had already done a thorough test about it, including shining torch into viewfinder.

    http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/p...-exposure.html

    ok, case closed, finally settled after so long. apparently i can find the viewfinder cover somewhere in my box back in... singapore. it better be there!

  2. #22

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    it has happened with k20d with nd400 also, before i lost it somewhere in dorset.

    i know yapster also has experienced it once, so that includes nikon as well, nnb is also nikon.

    don't think it's a camera issue.

    i want to find out the reason though, so that with the understanding of how it arises, can take steps to avoid or correct it when it appears.
    yup. Not only once actually. On different lenses also. It happens especially when light is strong, even when I do not have the sun in the frame.

    Today Kenna again...

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    i experimented a lot today, i have found the cause of the problem

    i think it is because of what you say, the light leakage from viewfinder.

    nothing done, just resized out of camera,
    iso 100, f/22, 60 seconds

    versus

    also resized out of camera,
    iso 100, f/22, 90 seconds

    of course obviously lighting conditions have changed but the main difference was that the second photo had my sweater over the camera..............

    like so:


    you bet i got many weird stares from the people around canary wharf (that's london's cbd)

    but every photo with the sweater over the camera.. did not have banding.

    was painful though, wearing just a t-shirt in 12 degrees and strong wind. now to find a viewfinder cover of sorts.
    ah... Thanks for the info! Time to use my VF curtain that's build on the cam.

    I remember my previous D80 has an external cover for the VF as well (which I never use or don't know what it is for). WK, maybe you can check if your package comes with it as well.
    Last edited by Yapster; 16th June 2010 at 05:53 AM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    WAH! Good job

    Now I must start looking for photos I took in the brighter lights.. see whether my camera also got light leakage or not. In Singapore, it could be even worse to wear a t-shirt and thick sweater in 37 degrees and no wind

  4. #24
    Member zk-diq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Started this thread for a discussion on banding issues at the bottom of landscape photos, when using ND filters such as ND110 or Hoya ND400, after night86mare pointed out on the issue. Trying to pinpoint what could be the cause, and what may be done.

    Enclosed some sample pictures for discussion:

    Pic1 - ND110, banding issue quite clearly seen at the bottom 20% of this photo

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 182.9 sec
    Aperture: 9.0
    Time: 6:56am

    Pic2 - ND110, less banding when exposed more

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 241.6 sec
    Aperture: 11.0
    Time: 7:03am

    Pic3 - ND110, problem also happens with bigger apertures

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 68.8 sec
    Aperture: 7.1
    Time: 7:04am

    Pic4 - An earlier pic

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 176.1 sec
    Aperture: 5.6
    Time: 6:48am

    Pic5 - without filters; the key could be because of lesser amount of light available at the bottom part of the photo even without filter

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 1/80 sec
    Aperture: 7.1
    Time: 7:06am
    Hi every one, most of the banding issue is due to insufficient tone range, from one level gray to the other level gray (tone), that is why in digital we need more bits, some of the image sample appear to be ccd/cmos (hardware issue) some row of sensor dont out put the same voltage but still within factory spec. or sometime factory overlook.

    for long time exposure, we face more issue, noise/heat etc.

    Back to basic is just another digital sampling rate, the higher the rate the smoother the tone. Remember we only have 255 step to display / record.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by zk-diq View Post
    Hi every one, most of the banding issue is due to insufficient tone range, from one level gray to the other level gray (tone), that is why in digital we need more bits, some of the image sample appear to be ccd/cmos (hardware issue) some row of sensor dont out put the same voltage but still within factory spec. or sometime factory overlook.

    for long time exposure, we face more issue, noise/heat etc.

    Back to basic is just another digital sampling rate, the higher the rate the smoother the tone. Remember we only have 255 step to display / record.
    you have to read everything in the thread , you know.......

  6. #26

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    i experimented a lot today, i have found the cause of the problem

    i think it is because of what you say, the light leakage from viewfinder.


    nothing done, just resized out of camera,
    iso 100, f/22, 60 seconds

    versus


    also resized out of camera,
    iso 100, f/22, 90 seconds

    of course obviously lighting conditions have changed but the main difference was that the second photo had my sweater over the camera..............

    like so:



    you bet i got many weird stares from the people around canary wharf (that's london's cbd)

    but every photo with the sweater over the camera.. did not have banding.

    was painful though, wearing just a t-shirt in 12 degrees and strong wind. now to find a viewfinder cover of sorts.
    Thanks for the info. I was about to purchase the uv/ir filter.

    1 More item to put into the camera bag. Look like the old days of photography is back, cover the VF with a piece of black cloth
    Last edited by dleugene; 16th June 2010 at 09:15 AM.
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  7. #27
    Member zk-diq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    you have to read everything in the thread , you know.......
    Yap. Some additional opion only.

  8. #28
    Senior Member icarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    I experience a slight banding too, with my D700+16-35mm. I was doing a 90 seconds exposure with my ND110 and the banding was visible. I believe it's light leakage either from the VF or the lens itself.

    As mentioned by Nightmare, Just pop your jacket over the camera or use the eyepiece blocker on the camera to prevent this issue from happening.
    Yngwie J. Malmsteen - "...I've never considered myself a fast guitar player..."

  9. #29
    Member r00ki3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    WAH! Good job

    Now I must start looking for photos I took in the brighter lights.. see whether my camera also got light leakage or not. In Singapore, it could be even worse to wear a t-shirt and thick sweater in 37 degrees and no wind
    Sorry I'm quite noob about all this but I think I haven't experienced it. On most occasions I took my shots in bright daylight, and so far it turned out ok, that is with regards to the light leakage issue la, unless my eyes are not trained or I'm not observant enough to notice this

  10. #30
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Okay.. now I got question. Does it happen only with ND filters, or is it because only with ND filters are we taking looooong exposure pics thus the problem is accentuated? By right, even without ND if light is leaking in, it should still be leaking in with or without ND, right?

    Maybe will find the answer when dleugene does testing with IR filters

  11. #31
    Senior Member Numnumball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by dleugene View Post
    This is an extract from B+W Cataloge.

    "B+W Neutral Density Filter 06
    This B+W Neutral Density Filter reduces the light by six f-stops. With this filter and without changing the f-stop, a shutter speed of /60 s is changed to a full second, thus requiring the use of a tripod. Flowing water is rendered as flowing in the photo, and people moving in streets are dissolved in unsharpness or become invisible. Because of its higher transmission in the red beyond 660 nm, this filter brings a slightly warm tone to color photographs. If this effect is undesirable,
    a B+W UV-/IR-Blocking Filter 486 in front of the neutral density filter (not behind it!) remedies that situation. The filter factor is 64x."

    I am not sure does this address to the issue that you guy are experiencing? But it seems like it happens only on certain lighting condition.

    Hope this bring so light to the problem.
    Appreciated ur effort in this dleugene - this relates to color shifts only
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  12. #32

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Okay.. now I got question. Does it happen only with ND filters, or is it because only with ND filters are we taking looooong exposure pics thus the problem is accentuated? By right, even without ND if light is leaking in, it should still be leaking in with or without ND, right?

    Maybe will find the answer when dleugene does testing with IR filters
    Solution found still need to test meh?
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  13. #33
    Senior Member Numnumball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    i experimented a lot today, i have found the cause of the problem

    i think it is because of what you say, the light leakage from viewfinder.
    to u naymeh for experimenting out and sharing the results.. *at the risk of his own health (dun catch a cold man) *

    So my guess is affirmative.

    At least we managed to get to the source of the problem.. I will actuially suggest cam rain cover (i got one of those Matin camo kind from OP (SLS) at ard 20 bucks) when doing long expsoure in tricky lighting conditions. Tat should ease our problems with banding..
    I turned PRO in diaper chg!
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  14. #34

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by r00ki3 View Post
    Sorry I'm quite noob about all this but I think I haven't experienced it. On most occasions I took my shots in bright daylight, and so far it turned out ok, that is with regards to the light leakage issue la, unless my eyes are not trained or I'm not observant enough to notice this
    it might be because your exposure is not long enough to have the stray light showing up,

    or it might also be because you did not get much light streaming into the viewfinder.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Okay.. now I got question. Does it happen only with ND filters, or is it because only with ND filters are we taking looooong exposure pics thus the problem is accentuated? By right, even without ND if light is leaking in, it should still be leaking in with or without ND, right?

    Maybe will find the answer when dleugene does testing with IR filters
    well, most of the time when you are shooting with your eye to the viewfinder... it will be covered, right?

    no, it is not just nd filters, i have gotten it with ir filters too.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by Numnumball View Post
    At least we managed to get to the source of the problem.. I will actuially suggest cam rain cover (i got one of those Matin camo kind from OP (SLS) at ard 20 bucks) when doing long expsoure in tricky lighting conditions. Tat should ease our problems with banding..
    hrm.. yeah, i might consider that if i can't find the viewfinder cover that i'm supposed to have..

  17. #37
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Starting this week... there will be a group of photographers shooting with black cloth over their setup


  18. #38
    Member r00ki3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    it might be because your exposure is not long enough to have the stray light showing up,

    or it might also be because you did not get much light streaming into the viewfinder.
    Ah I see, that should be the reason.
    Adding to that when my exposure is long I do sometimes instinctively 'cup' the viewfinder with both my palms or cover it with my hand to prevent excessive light from streaming in.
    Thanks for the clarification night86mare

  19. #39

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by r00ki3 View Post
    Ah I see, that should be the reason.
    Adding to that when my exposure is long I do sometimes instinctively 'cup' the viewfinder with both my palms or cover it with my hand to prevent excessive light from streaming in.
    Thanks for the clarification night86mare
    won't your hand sort of induce movement of the camera, even if it is on tripod?

    think perhaps better to use a cloth or viewfinder cover - of course the latter is much better, just that it's much easier to lose it.

  20. #40
    Member r00ki3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    won't your hand sort of induce movement of the camera, even if it is on tripod?

    think perhaps better to use a cloth or viewfinder cover - of course the latter is much better, just that it's much easier to lose it.
    I don't touch my viewfinder at all when I do that.I just make sure that the it is well shaded from the sunlight.
    Covering with a black piece of cloth is definitely a much better option..It's time for me to get one

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