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Thread: Banding issue with ND filters

  1. #1
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Default Banding issue with ND filters

    Started this thread for a discussion on banding issues at the bottom of landscape photos, when using ND filters such as ND110 or Hoya ND400, after night86mare pointed out on the issue. Trying to pinpoint what could be the cause, and what may be done.

    Enclosed some sample pictures for discussion:

    Pic1 - ND110, banding issue quite clearly seen at the bottom 20% of this photo

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 182.9 sec
    Aperture: 9.0
    Time: 6:56am

    Pic2 - ND110, less banding when exposed more

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 241.6 sec
    Aperture: 11.0
    Time: 7:03am

    Pic3 - ND110, problem also happens with bigger apertures

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 68.8 sec
    Aperture: 7.1
    Time: 7:04am

    Pic4 - An earlier pic

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 176.1 sec
    Aperture: 5.6
    Time: 6:48am

    Pic5 - without filters; the key could be because of lesser amount of light available at the bottom part of the photo even without filter

    ISO: 200
    Exposure: 1/80 sec
    Aperture: 7.1
    Time: 7:06am

  2. #2
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    I thought it was ok because its not those nasty hard-edged banding like what a faulty shutter will do.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    hrm, this is not what i'm referring to

    banding is probably just resizing problems.

    i had a thread about it once, basically there is an entire strip underexposed, and it is very clearly delineated, not like here.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    i think your idea of banding is actually just vignetting.

    examples of what i'm tlaking about (closer to what nnb is getting)


    (bottom)



    top right - which is also bottom of sensor when horizontal

  5. #5
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Ahhh.. *enlightened*

    Okay, sorry, musunderstand. Yeah, I can see one hard band there of different light exposure. Lucky my Nikon camera got no banding! *wipes sweat* will let you know if I kena and maybe will do some test with NNB.

    Either that or my bottom part is always so black that I have to snip it off anyway

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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Ahhh.. *enlightened*

    Okay, sorry, musunderstand. Yeah, I can see one hard band there of different light exposure. Lucky my Nikon camera got no banding! *wipes sweat* will let you know if I kena and maybe will do some test with NNB.

    Either that or my bottom part is always so black that I have to snip it off anyway
    you can use a center filter to reduce the "blackness"
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  7. #7
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by aloyyolaaloy View Post
    you can use a center filter to reduce the "blackness"
    Oh. What's a center filter? Is it like a GND or something?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Numnumball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    hrm, this is not what i'm referring to

    banding is probably just resizing problems.

    i had a thread about it once, basically there is an entire strip underexposed, and it is very clearly delineated, not like here.
    Agreed with Naymeh here.. Bro Bernard. those u posted at the start of this thread are merely vigentting/or allowing too much shadows becos of underexposing ue to long exposures etc etc.. What Me/Kit/Naymeh had encountered is clearly delineated and that off center..
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  9. #9
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by Numnumball View Post
    Agreed with Naymeh here.. Bro Bernard. those u posted at the start of this thread are merely vigentting/or allowing too much shadows becos of underexposing ue to long exposures etc etc.. What Me/Kit/Naymeh had encountered is clearly delineated and that off center..
    Yay.. I only kena cool vignetting issues

  10. #10

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by Numnumball View Post
    Agreed with Naymeh here.. Bro Bernard. those u posted at the start of this thread are merely vigentting/or allowing too much shadows becos of underexposing ue to long exposures etc etc.. What Me/Kit/Naymeh had encountered is clearly delineated and that off center..
    yeah, i've gotten it quite a lot.. it really only seems to appear with water present from my memory. i don't recall doing any city scapes and having that problem!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    yeah, i've gotten it quite a lot.. it really only seems to appear with water present from my memory. i don't recall doing any city scapes and having that problem!
    hmm, if it's water, would it the movement of the water and the reflections off of it play a part?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by 2evans View Post
    hmm, if it's water, would it the movement of the water and the reflections off of it play a part?
    that is my general postulation.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    that is my general postulation.
    I actually thought it was my K-7 issue, so it also happens to your K20D when you use it with the ND110? *ALAMAK*

  14. #14

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by hjbyeo View Post
    I actually thought it was my K-7 issue, so it also happens to your K20D when you use it with the ND110? *ALAMAK*
    it has happened with k20d with nd400 also, before i lost it somewhere in dorset.

    i know yapster also has experienced it once, so that includes nikon as well, nnb is also nikon.

    don't think it's a camera issue.

    i want to find out the reason though, so that with the understanding of how it arises, can take steps to avoid or correct it when it appears.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Numnumball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    it has happened with k20d with nd400 also, before i lost it somewhere in dorset.

    i know yapster also has experienced it once, so that includes nikon as well, nnb is also nikon.

    don't think it's a camera issue.

    i want to find out the reason though, so that with the understanding of how it arises, can take steps to avoid or correct it when it appears.
    Doubt is system specific, its more of a light leaks issue..

    Cant help thinking It has to do with the strength of the filter, and these light leaks will affect the light that is coming into the filter, and the surrounding lighting condition that might worsen it. Like wavelengths not fit in into the sensor and escape throught he leaks and continue to propagate, thus the banding.. Well, my guess..
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by Numnumball View Post
    Doubt is system specific, its more of a light leaks issue..

    Cant help thinking It has to do with the strength of the filter, and these light leaks will affect the light that is coming into the filter, and the surrounding lighting condition that might worsen it. Like wavelengths not fit in into the sensor and escape throught he leaks and continue to propagate, thus the banding.. Well, my guess..
    let me check with hoya and B+W when i have the time - i mean, they manufacture the filters, i'm sure they would have realised these problems..

  17. #17
    Senior Member Numnumball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    let me check with hoya and B+W when i have the time - i mean, they manufacture the filters, i'm sure they would have realised these problems..
    Think it will benefit us users by getting to the root of the problem...
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by Numnumball View Post
    Think it will benefit us users by getting to the root of the problem...
    This is an extract from B+W Cataloge.

    "B+W Neutral Density Filter 06
    This B+W Neutral Density Filter reduces the light by six f-stops. With this filter and without changing the f-stop, a shutter speed of /60 s is changed to a full second, thus requiring the use of a tripod. Flowing water is rendered as flowing in the photo, and people moving in streets are dissolved in unsharpness or become invisible. Because of its higher transmission in the red beyond 660 nm, this filter brings a slightly warm tone to color photographs. If this effect is undesirable,
    a B+W UV-/IR-Blocking Filter 486 in front of the neutral density filter (not behind it!) remedies that situation. The filter factor is 64x."

    I am not sure does this address to the issue that you guy are experiencing? But it seems like it happens only on certain lighting condition.

    Hope this bring so light to the problem.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    no, that has to do with COLOR SHIFTS, not banding.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Banding issue with ND filters

    Quote Originally Posted by Numnumball View Post
    Think it will benefit us users by getting to the root of the problem...
    i experimented a lot today, i have found the cause of the problem

    i think it is because of what you say, the light leakage from viewfinder.


    nothing done, just resized out of camera,
    iso 100, f/22, 60 seconds

    versus


    also resized out of camera,
    iso 100, f/22, 90 seconds

    of course obviously lighting conditions have changed but the main difference was that the second photo had my sweater over the camera..............

    like so:



    you bet i got many weird stares from the people around canary wharf (that's london's cbd)

    but every photo with the sweater over the camera.. did not have banding.

    was painful though, wearing just a t-shirt in 12 degrees and strong wind. now to find a viewfinder cover of sorts.

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