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Thread: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    How did the model get hold of the image then?

    Using other people's image without getting permission is akin to stealing. But u need to ascertain that you have full rights to the image.

    Opps, I just clash a post with Nightmare...in the same instance.


    Snowspeeder, in this case I think it is the model herself picking a picture of herself, so I wouldn't call it stealing.

    Nightmare, I read the site, it may not work that way. It all depend on the agreement of prior to the shoot. There is an incident that a model discover her picture being used commercially in a Resort in Malaysia. She called the photographer and asked why she was not paid for her cut and only then both she and the photographer discovered their photos were used without permission. Subsequently the Resort agreed to pay in full and profits were shared by the model and the photographer. The Resort found the picture on the net but couldn't find the owners so they use the picture.

    There is no fixed rule and many rules (or understanding) are verbal. I have done many model photoshoot and generally this kind of shoot the photographer is to use the picture for himself only. Any commercial use later the model can demand a share of the pay.

    The final rule is what were agreed upon prior to the shoot . In KL, it is stated clearly pictures shot are to be used personally.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Whatever it is, I still think that, w/o the creator's permission to use the photo or not crediting the creator is akin to stealing, i dont know why but i feel it is equals to stealing. be it whatever law or something it has. :s
    Clean. Simple. Makes out a good composition.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by Shin Howard View Post
    Mervin: Is there a possibility that the image was taken from your web album then?

    I do agree with Mervin that his photographs should only be used with his permission given.
    In this situation, it is unethical to use other photographer's images to publicize for paid shoot/commercial event.

    The refusal to remove image also reflects on the integrity of the organizer.
    The image was indeed used and previously linked from my flickr portraiture account to a portraits and poses thread a while ago... but apparently after some checking both images come from seperate sources of the web.

    Image link from my PnP thread: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2541/...3943ca97_o.jpg

    Image link from We are Jaykay shoot thread: http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...262_331450.jpg

    I have the reason to believe that either the organiser or model took the image from my flickr/thread and uploaded it to another account without my permission.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    I have previously posted the images on clubsnap at the following thread;

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=611740

    I presume that I still have sufficient image rights to make such demands from the organiser since I did pay a sum of money to have that image captured.

    And no, there were no model release forms involved during the shoot.
    Wait for advice from the moderators then. This is after all a photography community and I feel that the rights of photographers and their works should be protected.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    why does everyone want to say that i told him to take it and move on .....

    i never did that once here.
    NightMare, my apologies, I was refering to Kan KaiDian. I am the one that say 'take this advice and move on.' Sorry for the misunderstanding.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by innerzen View Post
    Opps, I just clash a post with Nightmare...in the same instance.


    Snowspeeder, in this case I think it is the model herself picking a picture of herself, so I wouldn't call it stealing.
    Well if the model is being paid for the shoot, she cannot just pick up the image and pass it to other biz to advertisement.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    Wait for advice from the moderators then. This is after all a photography community and I feel that the rights of photographers and their works should be protected.
    If you have no model release form signed, and it is the model who uses it , how can you say you have full rights. She can counter sue you for posting in the past.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    Well if the model is being paid for the shoot, she cannot just pick up the image and pass it to other biz to advertisement.
    As said , it depend on what agreement were made prior to the shoot. In this case neither (maybe) the photographer have the right to post it outside his own sites.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by innerzen View Post

    Nightmare, I read the site, it may not work that way. It all depend on the agreement of prior to the shoot. There is an incident that a model discover her picture being used commercially in a Resort in Malaysia. She called the photographer and asked why she was not paid for her cut and only then both she and the photographer discovered their photos were used without permission. Subsequently the Resort agreed to pay in full and profits were shared by the model and the photographer. The Resort found the picture on the net but couldn't find the owners so they use the picture.

    There is no fixed rule and many rules (or understanding) are verbal. I have done many model photoshoot and generally this kind of shoot the photographer is to use the picture for himself only. Any commercial use later the model can demand a share of the pay.
    that is kind of.. different logic.

    here the model is using the photographer's image of her without permission, handing out to organisers like it is her right to do so, despite no permission given by photographer.

    i agree that there are no fixed rules. and yes, without a MODEL RELEASE FORM, the photographer cannot use the image commercially. if he has obtained a MODEL RELEASE FORM, the model cannot demand a share of the pay if it is specified in the model release form.

    if you are supporting the model based on logic that she is in the picture, then you might as well say that the model can sell the pictures on stock photography websites... because that is what she is doing here, she is taking it that she has rights to the image and is giving them out to workshop organisers/advertisers for advertisement.

    in that case, theoretically there is PROFIT involved, so based on your example above, surrephoto should demand for a cut of the profits.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    The image was indeed used and previously linked from my flickr portraiture account to a portraits and poses thread a while ago... but apparently after some checking both images come from seperate sources of the web.

    Image link from my PnP thread: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2541/...3943ca97_o.jpg

    Image link from We are Jaykay shoot thread: http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...262_331450.jpg

    I have the reason to believe that either the organiser or model took the image from my flickr/thread and uploaded it to another account without my permission.
    bro, suggest you find a way to contact the model.

    you see, now the organiser is claiming that the model has given him the image - in some sense that's pushing the responsibility to model.. in some cases (not necessarily this one), organisers have hidden behind models because they think that photographers will be soft-hearted and let a girl use the image.

    so contact the model, let her know your unhappiness - if she did not provide the image, that's another strike against the organiser for lying. if she did, and she is reasonable, she will tell the organiser to take it down.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by innerzen View Post
    As said , it depend on what agreement were made prior to the shoot. In this case neither (maybe) the photographer have the right to post it outside his own sites.
    The point is already clearly outlined by nightmare, the model/or whoever, downloaded the image from the photographer's webby without permission and used it for their purpose. If the photographer had used the image for his own commercial usage without the release form, then its another story altogether.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    lodge a case to CAD ! maybe that will challenge organiser back.

  13. #33
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Haw come no organiser wants to use the photos I've taken even if I beg them to?
    Last edited by Sion; 2nd June 2010 at 06:15 PM.

  14. #34
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    if Mervin takes this photo of this model during a paid shoot, not commissioned by model or somebody else, he owns this photo.

    the model's face or any parts of the body appear in the photo, does not make her owns the photos.

    if Mervin never give this photo to anybody, or giving permission to anybody of using the photo, he has the right to ask anyone to remove it for any unauthorized usage.

    if this Organiser or model took the photo from Mervin's thread/post or website without seeking his consent, is consider leeching of photo.

    I hope this explanation is clear enough..

    Mervin, you may report the post if you think your rights has been violated.
    Last edited by catchlights; 2nd June 2010 at 06:16 PM. Reason: typo error
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    Haw come no organiser wants to use my photos even if I beg them to?
    Maybe there should be another section created titled 'Free Model Photos' -- use it if you like.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    Haw come no organiser wants to use the photos I've taken even if I beg them to?
    cos nobody wants to take photos of old men brandishing toy swords and guns.

    just kidding uncle sion, you know i love you

  17. #37
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    cos nobody wants to take photos of old men brandishing toy swords and guns.
    Not all girls like yan dao boys like you.

  18. #38
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    if Mervin takes this photo of this model during a paid shoot, not commissioned by model or somebody else, he owns this photo.
    Agree with this. Actually refers to any photos whether paid shoot or just shooting anyone out in the street. If it is not commissioned by model or someone else (which would mean a transferal of copyright from photographer to the new copyright owner). That's why protecting our copyright is very important and we do not freely sign away our rights to our photos (especially those photography competition which have these small prints that no one can read coz it's in font size 4).

    I can imagine some people would go to the point of digimarking their photos for ownership disputes if it happens. If not, I can just sell nai meh or some really solid photographer's photos as my own stock photo, or use it for commercial purpose, etc.

  19. #39
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    bro, suggest you find a way to contact the model.

    you see, now the organiser is claiming that the model has given him the image - in some sense that's pushing the responsibility to model.. in some cases (not necessarily this one), organisers have hidden behind models because they think that photographers will be soft-hearted and let a girl use the image.

    so contact the model, let her know your unhappiness - if she did not provide the image, that's another strike against the organiser for lying. if she did, and she is reasonable, she will tell the organiser to take it down.
    I was involved in one of these cases with SPH recently; our non-profit organization have members who are interviewed by them and their reporter has passed us a copy of the article which we posted up. When SPH contacted us, we didn't even bother contacting the reporter, just take it down first, and talk later.

    The fact that the person has been told repeatedly about ownership of the photo already and yet still refuse to take it down shows a kind of irresponsibility on his part. It doesn't matter whether the model passed him the photo or not; as an organizer he should know better and be more responsible than any xmm.

  20. #40
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Organiser refuses to remove my images from thread and challenges me

    i feel that that photo is stolen if the photographer did not give the photo to the model
    the image should be removed if the photographer did not give permission for it to be used

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