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Thread: Canon vs Nikon

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BraveHart
    Uh...the lens is already a USM lens...where does the AFD come in?
    Sorry, should be the EF 28mm f/2.8, from here. Third entry from the bottom of the wide angle lenses section.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpenza
    just wondering.... who came up with the definitive definition?

    Canon USA website has some info on L lenses:
    http://www.usa.canon.com/eflenses/te...y/lseries.html

    some other items are mentioned like Super Spectra Coating, designed and built to meet the needs of the most demanding professional photographers, etc which probably should be included in the "definitive definition".
    When I say it comes by the definition, I refer to technical definition. Yes, L is meant for pros. But it does not have a hard technology enhancements for the pros. When I read that page, the only definitive statement across all L lenses is that it contains LD and SLD. The "sometimes used" is not a statement you can applied across all Ls. This includes AS, SSC (third para that you mentioned above).

    Can non L have them? Yes.
    Can L not have them? Yes.

    Thus, from my reading, the only conclusive, constant, non-marketing babble from the above page is that L lenses always contains at least one LD or SLD element.

    Yes, the 18-70 is not really a pro (even by Nikon's definition), not a "built to meet the needs of the most demanding professional photographers" (this statement does not give any concrete feature btw; marketing talk). But by technical features...

    OTOH, if Canon labels every lens that has LD and SLD elements as L lenses then... .
    Last edited by Watcher; 12th April 2004 at 08:40 AM.

  3. #23
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    Think at the end of the day, you are buying a system and you should choose the one that suits your style the most. There is no such thing as a perect camera. So comparisons are meaningless. If there were such thing as a better camera, everyone would be using it already. But that's not the case. Its personal and subjective. So go figure it out yourself...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpenza
    What I meant was that the comparison isn't too useful if the definition isn't that right to begin with cos there're non-quantifiable qualities which are equally, if not more, important. The technology found in the AF-S 18-70 could also be found in top "ED" Nikkors, so does it mean the AF-S 18-70 is the same class as the top pro Nikon lenses designed to meet the needs of Nikon professionals?
    Well, many here thinks USM == always focus very fast. Sorry no. Faster maybe, always very fast? No.

    The issue here is this: does L guarantee LD/SLD only or does it guarantee that it is the best of the best from them? I don't see Canon putting up a non-marketing statement on the latter... If you read the last statement, they only say that it "enable pros and advanced amateurs to have lenses that are the absolute pinnacle of optical performance" <- marketing talk. How do you quantify that? Nothing that it guarantees that it is the "best of the best".

    I read and write statements like these; I know marketing when I see one.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobotto
    For those interested to see what our Offstone brothers have to say, here's a link to Offstone's clone of this thread.

    Continuing Thread in Offstone


    - Bob
    Heh, read the thread. Yes, it is really that fast. You should drop by the Nikon council for us to demo. Alternatively, try this:

    Turn off the camera.
    press down on the shutter release.
    Turn the camera on (one or two handed is fine )

    The D100/D70/D2H shoots immediately at full speed. Canon's camera ?

  6. #26
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    I always thought the "L" designation was more of a marketing "definition", rather than a "technology" definition. So, comparing the technology aspect doesn't really make sense and is not useful (It's just like comparing the weight of the lens - many lenses from other manufacturers have the same/similar weight as L lenses).

    Lots of lenses have the same LD, SLD and ED "technology" as L lenses and Nikon ED lenses such as a <$300 tamron 70-300 LD macro. Even a consumer digicam has "ED" lens.
    Last edited by mpenza; 12th April 2004 at 09:13 AM.

  7. #27

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    Jed comments:

    on the 10d and 1d, when in preview and zoomed in, it is very easy to navigate left/right/up/down

    Erm, what are you on about? If you have no experience with the 1D don't just throw it in for the sake of throwing it in. You can't zoom in on the 1D, period. Never mind easy to navigate left and right. Nikon btw have done a beautiful job on the zoom in on the D2h, it wasn't quite so great on the D1x/h.


    ok, maybe only on the 10d. after zoomed in it seems faster to navigate around the picture


    focus motor is on the lens, change lens and u change your motor, so u have a choice of fast or slow AF with the same body

    Erm, not quite. There was a good explanation on this in a thread several weeks back ironically on shutter lag. Yes, you can having faster focusing AF, but ultimately your body still decides bottom line focusing speed. A fast lens on a fast body is fast, a slow lens on a fast body is still slow. A fast lens on a slow body is still slow, a slow lens on a slow body is neanderthal.


    hmm, i only have experience with the 300d and 10d, so i'm not so sure about slow body

    most of all my friends use canon, easier to exchange lens/flash if needed

    Very, very valid point, do not underestimate the importance of this.


    heh

    on the 1d, there's no such thing as buffer full, it can shoot at 8fps till the cf is full (i duno how they do it)

    The 1D has a 21 frame buffer, and plenty of my colleagues bemoan it. OTOH the D2h has a more generous 40 frame buffer, which is all but impossible to fill (due to improved CF write speed as well). The 1D mk II will also have a 40 frame buffer, but with bigger files.


    what i heard was that if u did not release the shutter in continuous mode, the 1d/1ds is able to shoot at 8fps till the CF is fill. i have not check out if the d1/d2h is able to do that. yes, i thought it's based on how big the frame buffer is and when the frame buffer is full it'll stop, but canon users have been telling me that story. i heard that the speed of CF card doesnt matter, altough most cards are at least 32x now. i havent been able to find someone willing to let me try that on his cam yet.


    easy to select AF point on 300d/10d, unlike d100

    You are kidding aren't you?


    press a button then turn the dial. on the d100 u have to use the mode dial



    Nikon:

    the mirror slap is not that loud compare to 300d

    Erm, on what camera? As a general rule, the Nikons are louder than the equivalent Canon.


    comparing any dslr with the 300d

    faster startup (not really that important)

    Agree, but who says not important? Individual needs vary.


    depends lah, can just keep the cam on all the time

    3d color metering (i duno how it helps, seems like not much difference to me)

    Nope, I'm with you on that one, both take well exposed pictures with the odd blip.


    rear-curtain flash with built-in flash (seems like not useful to me)

    Canon has rear-curtain sync on their higher-end cameras too I'm sure. Or on their flash units anyway. Rear-curtain flash is critical in any long-ish exposure flash images.


    i'm saying with built-in flash. the higher-end cams dun have built-in flash

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpenza
    I always thought the "L" designation was more of a marketing "definition", rather than a "technology" definition. So, comparing the technology aspect doesn't really make sense and is not useful (It's just like comparing the weight of the lens - many lenses from other manufacturers have the same/similar weight as L lenses).

    Lots of lenses have the same LD, SLD and ED "technology" as L lenses and Nikon ED lenses such as a <$300 tamron 70-300 LD macro. Even a consumer digicam has "ED" lens.
    We are in agreement then... .

    Now back to our usual flamewars

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    We are in agreement then... .

    Now back to our usual flamewars
    no prob

    L designation is like Toyota's Lexus. Expensive and luxurious but it does come with its benefits, whether tangibles (features/technology) or intangibles (workmanship/design/build, etc). Nikon could have done the same to differentiate the top ED lenses from the rest but for good or bad it didn't. Just a difference in marketing strategy (some other manufacturers do have similar designations - Sigma's EX and Tamron's SP for example).

    Comparing just the technology do get people upset, just like if someone were to say that the AF-S 18-70 has the same technology (ED) as the Tamron 70-300 LD. Most of us know that having the same technology does not mean the same optical performance, build, design, etc.
    Last edited by mpenza; 12th April 2004 at 09:28 AM.

  10. #30
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    Let me respond only to some of the statements in italics

    Jed comments:

    on the 10d and 1d, when in preview and zoomed in, it is very easy to navigate left/right/up/down

    Erm, what are you on about? If you have no experience with the 1D don't just throw it in for the sake of throwing it in. You can't zoom in on the 1D, period. Never mind easy to navigate left and right. Nikon btw have done a beautiful job on the zoom in on the D2h, it wasn't quite so great on the D1x/h.


    ok, maybe only on the 10d. after zoomed in it seems faster to navigate around the picture

    Then don't bring in things that you have no experience in...

    focus motor is on the lens, change lens and u change your motor, so u have a choice of fast or slow AF with the same body

    Erm, not quite. There was a good explanation on this in a thread several weeks back ironically on shutter lag. Yes, you can having faster focusing AF, but ultimately your body still decides bottom line focusing speed. A fast lens on a fast body is fast, a slow lens on a fast body is still slow. A fast lens on a slow body is still slow, a slow lens on a slow body is neanderthal.


    hmm, i only have experience with the 300d and 10d, so i'm not so sure about slow body

    Sigh, your statement was a coverall, general statement. Speed of focusing varies between bodies you know... 300D and 10D are the non-pro version of Canon's DSLR. I'm rather hope that the 1D and 1D Mk II focus faster than 300D and 10D

    most of all my friends use canon, easier to exchange lens/flash if needed

    Very, very valid point, do not underestimate the importance of this.


    heh

    Aiyah, make more new Nikonian friends lor

    on the 1d, there's no such thing as buffer full, it can shoot at 8fps till the cf is full (i duno how they do it)

    The 1D has a 21 frame buffer, and plenty of my colleagues bemoan it. OTOH the D2h has a more generous 40 frame buffer, which is all but impossible to fill (due to improved CF write speed as well). The 1D mk II will also have a 40 frame buffer, but with bigger files.


    what i heard was that if u did not release the shutter in continuous mode, the 1d/1ds is able to shoot at 8fps till the CF is fill. i have not check out if the d1/d2h is able to do that. yes, i thought it's based on how big the frame buffer is and when the frame buffer is full it'll stop, but canon users have been telling me that story. i heard that the speed of CF card doesnt matter, altough most cards are at least 32x now. i havent been able to find someone willing to let me try that on his cam yet.

    Oh pleaze! . Even Canon marketing dare not print such thing! Using Sandisk Extreme 512MB, the 1D writes only around 69% of the D70 (JPEG large fine). Please ask. The closest camera that can do this (hold down the shutter until the CF is full) is the D70

    easy to select AF point on 300d/10d, unlike d100

    You are kidding aren't you?


    press a button then turn the dial. on the d100 u have to use the mode dial


    You obviously have not used a D100 or D70 before. The joy pad below operates to select, left right, up or down. No need even to press an button!

    Please, get a real Nikon user to demo to you the D70 or D100 before you write more of this stuff.
    Last edited by Watcher; 12th April 2004 at 09:31 AM.

  11. #31

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    "Most, if not all of the Canon's power switches are in some akward position"

    agree. there are 2 dials with on/off words on the 10d/1d, i have to guess which is the power and what the other 1 do

  12. #32

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    i m a nikon film user & only have a little play with my friends' canon D60 & 10D. i kinda like the features built into canon that makes it feels ready everytime. why did i stick to nikon? well, for their commitment to their lens mount since 70s.

    i guess it really comes down to individual preference. just like some people still use their leica M bodies even thou its not ergornomic to hold & lens limited (no fancy zooms).

    as for the lenses, correct me if i m wrong but i notice a trend in both nikon & canon pro lens, ie, the pro series uses more grounded glass. whereas the cheaper ones uses moulded elements & some even hybrid (some plastic composite). if u read their catalogues on lenses, u shud be able to compare. it doesn't matter which lens has ED or SLD element once u know their construction. a good eg. wud be my 28-105, it doensn't have ED element but the colour & sharpness is as good as those with ED. on the other hand, my other 70-300ED pales against my 28-105.

    lastly, fyi, canon L lens use a material call calcium flourite & it was actually invented by fujinon (broadcast arm of fuji co.) back in the 60s.

    bottom line, both pro lenses r stunning in image quality but the question is: r u willing to pay that price... i for one, no.

    have fun!!! :>

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    on the 1d, there's no such thing as buffer full, it can shoot at 8fps till the cf is full (i duno how they do it)

    The 1D has a 21 frame buffer, and plenty of my colleagues bemoan it. OTOH the D2h has a more generous 40 frame buffer, which is all but impossible to fill (due to improved CF write speed as well). The 1D mk II will also have a 40 frame buffer, but with bigger files.


    what i heard was that if u did not release the shutter in continuous mode, the 1d/1ds is able to shoot at 8fps till the CF is fill. i have not check out if the d1/d2h is able to do that. yes, i thought it's based on how big the frame buffer is and when the frame buffer is full it'll stop, but canon users have been telling me that story. i heard that the speed of CF card doesnt matter, altough most cards are at least 32x now. i havent been able to find someone willing to let me try that on his cam yet.

    Oh pleaze! . Even Canon marketing dare not print such thing! Using Sandisk Extreme 512MB, the 1D writes only around 69% of the D70 (JPEG large fine). Please ask. The closest camera that can do this (hold down the shutter until the CF is full) is the D70
    ops, who was the ones who told me that?
    luckily i didnt go over to canon


    easy to select AF point on 300d/10d, unlike d100

    You are kidding aren't you?


    press a button then turn the dial. on the d100 u have to use the mode dial


    You obviously have not used a D100 or D70 before. The joy pad below operates to select, left right, up or down. No need even to press an button!

    Please, get a real Nikon user to demo to you the D70 or D100 before you write more of this stuff.
    maybe the AF selector is locked when i tried the d100. i knew the d70 have this feature (i'm a d70 user). so this point is invalid

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpenza
    no prob

    L designation is like Toyota's Lexus. Expensive and luxurious but it does come with its benefits, whether tangibles (features/technology) or intangibles (workmanship/design/build, etc). Nikon could have done the same to differentiate the top ED lenses from the rest but for good or bad it didn't. Just a difference in marketing strategy (some other manufacturers do have similar designations - Sigma's EX and Tamron's SP for example).

    Comparing just the technology do get people upset, just like if someone were to say that the AF-S 18-70 has the same technology (ED) as the Tamron 70-300 LD. Most of us know that having the same technology does not mean the same optical performance, build, design, etc.
    True, true, esp for the 2nd para...

    But you see, like I said before, regardless of the technology used, the lens' performance must stand on its own. Just like Nightpiper said about his lens. Just like the Nikkor AF 85 f/1.4. No SWM/AF-S, no ASP (Asperical) and ... no ED. So by the Canon's definition, it is not a L lens. But so what? It is one of the best lenses for portraiture (35mm), pro or not pro.

    That is my main point: for Nikkor lenses, ED or no ED, the lens stands on its own performance.

  15. #35
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    Probably OT, but,

    SHOOT MORE, COMPARE LESS, TALK LESS, LET THE OUTPUT DO THE TALKING.


  16. #36
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    to avoid confusion, it would be good to just state what you know and if you're not sure but really want to make the point, just say "I think". It doesn't help much if more than half of the discussions are corrections of each other's posts

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    True, true, esp for the 2nd para...

    But you see, like I said before, regardless of the technology used, the lens' performance must stand on its own. Just like Nightpiper said about his lens. Just like the Nikkor AF 85 f/1.4. No SWM/AF-S, no ASP (Asperical) and ... no ED. So by the Canon's definition, it is not a L lens. But so what? It is one of the best lenses for portraiture (35mm), pro or not pro.

    That is my main point: for Nikkor lenses, ED or no ED, the lens stands on its own performance.
    Yup. AF-S 18-70 is good, not just because it has ED, AF-S, etc..... similarly, Canon lenses do not need to be L to perform well for pros/non-pros(e.g. macro lenses, primes, 28-135 IS). generally speaking though, Nikon ED lenses and Canon L lenses are pretty good. They're priced similarly right for similar focal lengths, speed and features?
    Last edited by mpenza; 12th April 2004 at 09:56 AM.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightpiper
    i m a nikon film user & only have a little play with my friends' canon D60 & 10D. i kinda like the features built into canon that makes it feels ready everytime.
    Ready to go everytime.. hmm you obviously have not done a test of the ready to go right next with a D70 and 300D.. or a D100 with a 10D - 3s startup time for the 300D.. during which time.. the D70 would have already fired of.. 9-11 frames.. and the sleep mode of the 300D.. approx 1.5-2 sec to wake up.. hmm compared to the ~ instantaneous on the D70..

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpenza
    Yup. AF-S 18-70 is good, not just because it has ED, AF-S, etc..... similarly, Canon lenses do not need to be L to perform well for pros/non-pros(e.g. macro lenses, primes, 28-135 IS). generally speaking though, Nikon ED lenses and Canon L lenses are pretty good. They're priced similarly right for similar focal lengths, speed and features?
    Dont really agree on the 28-135.. I have found the image quality of the 28-135 IS USM to be soft and rather flat.. as compared to say Nikon 28-105.. And note.. I have both lenses.. and have used both lenses..

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadrian
    Ready to go everytime.. hmm you obviously have not done a test of the ready to go right next with a D70 and 300D.. or a D100 with a 10D - 3s startup time for the 300D.. during which time.. the D70 would have already fired of.. 9-11 frames.. and the sleep mode of the 300D.. approx 1.5-2 sec to wake up.. hmm compared to the ~ instantaneous on the D70..

    yep, must admit i have not touch the 300D nor the D70 thats why my statement didn't mention these 2. anyway D70 is so new & 300D is already 1 year old, so not very fair to compare, rite? but i must say the reviews r all raving abt this D70. u kind enuf to let me have a hands on, on your D70?

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