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Thread: Recommendations for my first film SLR

  1. #81

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    Originally posted by munfai


    i agree that a F80 or an EOS 30 can last much much much longer than any base class camera, but then again if you're new to photography (no reference to yeppie99), would you rather pay big bucks for stuff like Focus-Lock, 5fps drive, Wireless TTL flash, blah blah blah when you're just starting out in photography?

    chances are that with more features and automation, the beginner will get even more confused, and reliant on the camera features.

    i believe that the first camera would be a learning tool, and to discover what the user intends to to with the camera. then the next logical upgrade would be inline with his/her needs. for example, if you're into macro shots you wouldn't buy a 200mm f/2.8 just because it's available, right?
    Hi Mun Fai,
    If you think a beginner should really learn, then fully manual camera is a much better choice.

    Your argument doesn't stand:
    1. The price different between F65 and F80 are not BIG BUCKS. New F80D is around S$700, new F65 with 28-80mm G lens is around S$600. I don't like the 28-80mm G lens, and for me...AFD 50mm f/1.8 is a better choice.

    2. Focus-Lock, 5fps drive, Wireless TTL flash...etc. these are not what I am trying to stress in F80. In fact, focus lock is available in both F80 and F65. 5fps is not available in F80 or EOS30, wireless TTL flash doesn't depends on camera but flash. Both F80 and F65 can use TTL wireless flash.

    The reason for choosing F80 over F65 are:
    1. flash compensation
    2. manual iso setting
    3. 89% viewfinder coverage in F65 but 92% in F80
    4. spot metering in F80 but not F65
    5. highest speed 1/4000s in F80 but 1/2000s in F65
    6. flash sync = 1/125s in F80 but 1/90s in F65
    7. no rear sync in F65
    8. on demand grid line on screen
    9. 3D matrix balance in F80 but only matrix balance exposure metering in F65
    10. seperate command dials for speed and aperture in F80, but only one command dial in F65
    11. no light illumination in the LCD panel of F65, but yes on F80. This can be quite useful during night photography

    If you think these features are not important to you, then go ahead with F65.

    3. The price differences between 200mm f/4 micro lens (there is no 200mm f2.8 micro) and 105micro is more than double (105micro = S$1k, 200micro = S$2.1k). You can use 105micro as a portrait lens...and not necessary 200mm micro is better in macro photography, thus your example here is not right.

    Upgrading always mean spending more money (waste money), and the lower end model is hard to sell. Thus, buy a camera you can grow with...and forget about upgrading in camera for a few years and concentrating on building up your lenses military.
    DR KOH KHO KING

  2. #82

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    personally as a newbie... (not necessarily to photography)

    newbies are always looking for something which is easier
    to use/learn, cheap and can use for long term without getting bored.

    which is really hard to find!!!

    2 options:
    -if u wan to pick up fast, get a newbie cam but must upgrade
    soon... not very well-do pple like me, can't choose this option.

    -but if u know photography is your thing, get something in the
    intermediate level...

    just my 2 cents worth!!! sorry for the long msg!
    IT"S THE WEEKEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  3. #83

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    Originally posted by Richard


    Uh... what bullshit is that?
    Shame on you as a Core Team Member!
    DR KOH KHO KING

  4. #84

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    Originally posted by Kho King

    4. spot metering in F80 but not F65
    7. no rear sync in F65
    9. 3D matrix balance in F80 but only matrix balance exposure metering in f65
    eeerrr.... there is rear sync in F65...
    and 6-segment 3D Matrix Metering in all Auto Modes plus classic 75/25 Center Weighted in Manual Mode...

    F80 is also using the same AF chip as F65.. which makes them abt the same in speed when AF.. which is slow~~~

    but i'm not putting the f80 down.. i also wanna upgrade to f80s...
    Last edited by hackie; 10th May 2002 at 10:58 AM.

  5. #85

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    Oops, my mistake. Thanks for your correction.
    DR KOH KHO KING

  6. #86

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    Originally posted by Kho King
    Oops, my mistake. Thanks for your correction.

  7. #87

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    Originally posted by Kho King


    Hi Mun Fai,
    If you think a beginner should really learn, then fully manual camera is a much better choice.

    Your argument doesn't stand:
    1. The price different between F65 and F80 are not BIG BUCKS. New F80D is around S$700, new F65 with 28-80mm G lens is around S$600. I don't like the 28-80mm G lens, and for me...AFD 50mm f/1.8 is a better choice.

    2. Focus-Lock, 5fps drive, Wireless TTL flash...etc. these are not what I am trying to stress in F80. In fact, focus lock is available in both F80 and F65. 5fps is not available in F80 or EOS30, wireless TTL flash doesn't depends on camera but flash. Both F80 and F65 can use TTL wireless flash.

    The reason for choosing F80 over F65 are:
    1. flash compensation
    2. manual iso setting
    3. 89% viewfinder coverage in F65 but 92% in F80
    4. spot metering in F80 but not F65
    5. highest speed 1/4000s in F80 but 1/2000s in F65
    6. flash sync = 1/125s in F80 but 1/90s in F65
    7. no rear sync in F65
    8. on demand grid line on screen
    9. 3D matrix balance in F80 but only matrix balance exposure metering in F65
    10. seperate command dials for speed and aperture in F80, but only one command dial in F65
    11. no light illumination in the LCD panel of F65, but yes on F80. This can be quite useful during night photography

    If you think these features are not important to you, then go ahead with F65.

    3. The price differences between 200mm f/4 micro lens (there is no 200mm f2.8 micro) and 105micro is more than double (105micro = S$1k, 200micro = S$2.1k). You can use 105micro as a portrait lens...and not necessary 200mm micro is better in macro photography, thus your example here is not right.

    Upgrading always mean spending more money (waste money), and the lower end model is hard to sell. Thus, buy a camera you can grow with...and forget about upgrading in camera for a few years and concentrating on building up your lenses military.
    This is getting to be quite an argument

    Yes Kho King, personally I feel that a manual camera is the best.

    Would a beginner, or even a pro, ever reach shutter speeds of 1/1000 frequently? I doubt it, unless he/she is really specialized in some area. And other things like on-demand grid lines, viewfinder coverage, light illumination, well i can do without them, so why pay for it?

    Btw wireless flash DOES depend on the camera body. While the built-in flash can trigger off a wireless flash unit, you still need proper synchronization between and flash. Otherwise your built-in flash still determines the exposure, and it's only after the exposure is made that the wireless unit discharges.

  8. #88

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    Originally posted by munfai


    This is getting to be quite an argument

    Yes Kho King, personally I feel that a manual camera is the best.

    Would a beginner, or even a pro, ever reach shutter speeds of 1/1000 frequently? I doubt it, unless he/she is really specialized in some area. And other things like on-demand grid lines, viewfinder coverage, light illumination, well i can do without them, so why pay for it?

    Btw wireless flash DOES depend on the camera body. While the built-in flash can trigger off a wireless flash unit, you still need proper synchronization between and flash. Otherwise your built-in flash still determines the exposure, and it's only after the exposure is made that the wireless unit discharges.
    shake hand... I love manual camera too!

    In my case, I need speed above 1/1000s for when shooting outdoor portrait at f/2.8 and ISO200 film (I prefer this film for all purpose), I need higher speed to achieve correct exposure.

    Just me...
    DR KOH KHO KING

  9. #89

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    Manual feels great, right? Super-cool... right now I'm looking for a Minolta XD-7/XD-11

    Right from the start I prefer to shoot macro stills, and I've learnt never to use f/2.8 if I want maximum sharpness. So not having 1/1000 isn't an issue.

    But ermm... I've got 1/8000 on the Dynax 7 . Which of course I've never used before...

    So my recommendation remains - get something to learn, then change if necessary to suit your needs. It's easy to find an all-round camera, but all-round photographers are rare.

  10. #90

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    Originally posted by Kho King


    Shame on you as a Core Team Member!
    And in what way have I been vulgar? I don't see the need to be politically correct when I see things like that.

  11. #91

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    Originally posted by Kho King
    Let me help you to decide.

    Go for Nikon if you plan/want/hope to enjoy the mechanical/manual range of Nikon. Eg. FM2, FM3A, F3hp, F2, FE...Old Nikkors manual focus.

    Go for Canon if you want the lastest gadget. Eg. USM, IS.
    Why I say so? Nikon has fewer VR, SW lenses that a beginer can afford. Definitely not within the budget of S$1k. The biggest strength of Nikon is the compatibilty with older lenses and its manual focus line.

    Canon has many affordable USM IS lenses in the market. Eg. 28-105mm USM, 28-90mm USM, 28-135mm IS USM. Even the IS USM 70-200mm lens is cheaper compare to Nikkor AFS 80-200mm (no IS or VR).

    You can't use those old Canon lenses (FD mount) in new EOS body, and they are not fully compatible. There are no EOS manual focus offers by Canon nowadays. Nikon has not changed its lens mount since Nikon F till now Nikon D1x. You can use almost all Nikkor lenses on the latest D1x as well as on the old 20 years old Nikon FM.

    Richard, if you think what I wrote is wrong, I suggest you to be in a more polite way explain why you think so, but think again when you reply.

    Make the forum more friendly.
    DR KOH KHO KING

  12. #92

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    Originally posted by Kho King

    Your argument doesn't stand:
    1. The price different between F65 and F80 are not BIG BUCKS. New F80D is around S$700, new F65 with 28-80mm G lens is around S$600. I don't like the 28-80mm G lens, and for me...AFD 50mm f/1.8 is a better choice.


    Compare apples to apples please. In that case, you might as well compare a F55 with lens and a F65 without lens and say that the F55 is a much better buy.

    The reason for choosing F80 over F65 are:


    1. flash compensation

    With the exception of the most basic flashes, you're able to set flash compensation. Why should this affect the choice? You might as well say that the F80 is a much better buy than the F100 because of the above-mentioned.


    2. manual iso setting

    Again, this is a mild inconvenience. A similar effect can be attained by the manual adjustment of ev values.


    3. 89% viewfinder coverage in F65 but 92% in F80

    Personally, it's not much of a big deal, considering that it'll be cropped most of the time anyway. But I'll give you that.


    4. spot metering in F80 but not F65

    And how often do you use spot metering to be honest? To take an example from Canon, do you buy an EOS3 over an EOS30 just because there's no spot metering in an EOS30?


    5. highest speed 1/4000s in F80 but 1/2000s in F65

    Again, when do you use it anyway? If, by your example, you're shooting in bright daylight, why are you using fast iso film to begin with?


    6. flash sync = 1/125s in F80 but 1/90s in F65

    Yes, I concede on that.


    8. on demand grid line on screen

    To be honest, it's something nice to have, but you can actually do without it.


    10. seperate command dials for speed and aperture in F80, but only one command dial in F65

    Yes, I concede on that. It's really how much you think you'll need it.


    11. no light illumination in the LCD panel of F65, but yes on F80. This can be quite useful during night photography

    As above, it's a case of how much you think you'll need it.


    Upgrading always mean spending more money (waste money), and the lower end model is hard to sell. Thus, buy a camera you can grow with...and forget about upgrading in camera for a few years and concentrating on building up your lenses military.
    On the contary, I would suggest that you try not to blow your entire budget on the body and end up with say, only one lens. You'll have to work into account the bag, tripod, ballhead, filters, etc. Not to forget, to set aside a certain amount for film and developing costs. This can take up quite a huge chunk in the beginning as you get caught up in the hobby.

  13. #93

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    Originally posted by Richard

    Compare apples to apples please. In that case, you might as well compare a F55 with lens and a F65 without lens and say that the F55 is a much better buy.


    Since the original poster has S$1000 budget, thus most of us suggesting EOS 30 or F80, but some suggest F65, that's whey I am comparing these two. F55 is too basic...worse than F65.


    With the exception of the most basic flashes, you're able to set flash compensation. Why should this affect the choice? You might as well say that the F80 is a much better buy than the F100 because of the above-mentioned.


    Can you suggest a flash that can do flash compensation on F65? Please make sure you are certain before mentioning any model.



    Again, this is a mild inconvenience. A similar effect can be attained by the manual adjustment of ev values.


    I agree, but still setting ISO dial is more convenient that changing ev values, especially when you want to take different exposure bracketting further by changing the ev value again.


    Personally, it's not much of a big deal, considering that it'll be cropped most of the time anyway. But I'll give you that.


    Ok, I agree with this one as not much important.


    And how often do you use spot metering to be honest? To take an example from Canon, do you buy an EOS3 over an EOS30 just because there's no spot metering in an EOS30?


    Some find it useful, some find it not.


    Again, when do you use it anyway? If, by your example, you're shooting in bright daylight, why are you using fast iso film to begin with?


    I don't usually finish one roll of film so quickly in one session shot. That means sometimes I shoot 10 frames outside for portrait, later I might shoot some for indoor portrait. Thus, I prefer ISO200 film to be all purpose. Higher shutter speed can be handy.


    On the contary, I would suggest that you try not to blow your entire budget on the body and end up with say, only one lens. You'll have to work into account the bag, tripod, ballhead, filters, etc. Not to forget, to set aside a certain amount for film and developing costs. This can take up quite a huge chunk in the beginning as you get caught up in the hobby.


    That's why Megaweb said this is the dark side...
    DR KOH KHO KING

  14. #94

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    Originally posted by Kho King

    Richard, if you think what I wrote is wrong, I suggest you to be in a more polite way explain why you think so, but think again when you reply.

    Make the forum more friendly.
    I apologise for the use of "bullshit" on you if it has offended you in any way. Althought I fail to see why it has made the forums more unfriendly in any way.

    Anyway, I'll reply in a while work calls. :

  15. #95

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    hello yeppie99!!! where are you??? there's been a lot of activity on this thread of yours, but where are you? give some input as well, or have you gone ahead to purchase?

  16. #96

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    Originally posted by Richard


    I apologise for the use of "bullshit" on you if it has offended you in any way. Althought I fail to see why it has made the forums more unfriendly in any way.

    Anyway, I'll reply in a while work calls. :
    while 'bullshit' might not have been a vulgar word, it might have been more appropriate if left inside us.

    btw Richard, I agree fully with your one-line reply. no-one system is better than the other. otherwise why are there still people buying canon over nikon, minolta over canon, etc etc etc?

    let's try not to make sweeping statements here, lest we tread on some people's toes, ok?

  17. #97
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    Originally posted by munfai
    hello yeppie99!!! where are you??? there's been a lot of activity on this thread of yours, but where are you? give some input as well, or have you gone ahead to purchase?
    yah lor where's yeppie99... all this extensive discussion is for his benefit...

    think there's been enough input already... give the man time to digest...

  18. #98

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    Originally posted by firefox13
    yah lor where's yeppie99... all this extensive discussion is for his benefit...

    think there's been enough input already... give the man time to digest...
    or maybe he's decided to forget photography already. can get a migrain trying to decide

  19. #99

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    Originally posted by munfai


    Would a beginner, or even a pro, ever reach shutter speeds of 1/1000 frequently?
    yes, 12pm noon time out in the open, you'll hit 1/1000 easily
    36frames Wedding Photography - http://www.36frames.com
    rueyloon - http://www.rueyloon.com

  20. #100

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    Originally posted by rueyloon


    yes, 12pm noon time out in the open, you'll hit 1/1000 easily
    once again, depending on what kind of photos you take.

    and at 12pm noon every weekday i'm working, so...

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