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Thread: anyone watching taiwan election live now?

  1. #21
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    hwchoy, good say.

    So they are sum-mah sum mah

  2. #22
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    Lien-Song and their supporters are in a silent protest, demanding a recount of polls, still very happening at this hour. i support them tho im not taiwanese

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by therat
    I will only respect Japanese if they're sorry for what they did during WWII.
    this will never happen because the younger Japanese are taught that THEY WERE THE VICTIM of the war.

    some years ago a group of Japanese shool girls were holidaying in Singapore where they spied a crowd at the WWII Memorial, on Feb 15. When they managed to get to the front, they were shocked to find out what the ceremony was about, and to be told what their forefathers did in Singapore during the War, by a survivor no less. This was shown on TV news, you should see the shock on the girls' faces. It was not their fault but by virtue of being a Japanese they have to carry forever the shame, whether they are aware of it or not.
    Last edited by hwchoy; 21st March 2004 at 01:21 AM.

  4. #24
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    I really hope that you are expert in human migration and anthropology here. It's good that you have a good knowledge in such a matter but you are going OT. You think they have a idea of geopolitical concepts 13-15,000 years ago???

    So what you are suggesting that Japan and Korea should reunify with China now? Simply because they are linked by DNA? Then shouldn't we all be the nationals of some African country now?

    You haven't provided a strong argument why China should have a claim on Taiwan yet. Sure historically, Taiwan has been part of Tang, Yuen, Song, Qing and whatever. But it has never been ruled under Communist CHINA.

    If we follow your line of argument, then we should be rightfully part of Indonesia where our Sang Nila Utama came from. History can't be ruled out, but in our comtemporary age, politics, economics and culture has become stronger lines of differences.


    Quote Originally Posted by hwchoy
    the real "Taiwanese" are the natives who are now minority tribes. Just as the Ainus are the true Japanese. They are of a different stock and migrated north from South-east Asia probably around 30-40,000 years ago. Another branch continued east to Australia where they're the Aborigines.

    The Japanese, Taiwanese (whether "Minanese" or KMT), and even Korean are basically the Han tribe which reached East Asia via a northern migration route (from East Africa via Middle East). Another branch went north and crossed the Bering straits into North America. This is apparently 13-15,000 years ago.

    So, strictly speaking almost all Taiwanese are "invaders" from the mainland. Just because they have been there for 400 years doesn't mean China (meaning the continuation of the Chinese empires through the last 2000 years) doesn't have a claim on them. Chinese have been on the island since the Sung dynasty if not the Tang (dangerously relying on useless memory here). The "Minanese" and the KMT can quarrel but you can't cut short history just like that. The "Minanese" is just yet another wave of immigrant from the mainland. Surely the natives will agree.

  5. #25
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    I am merely trying to point out the futility of relying on the "we are here first" line of argument. The facts are real-politiks and cultural assimilation.

    Real-politiks means whoever is more muscular gets to have a say. Is it fair? No. But who's talking about being fair? As long as China continues get grow her economy and being more indispensable to the world than Taiwan, Taiwan independence is out of the question. Reunification may even come about by force or coercion, but this will not last for more than decades.

    Cultural assimilation, where cultures and people are alike, they will unite. Where they drift apart or could never mix, then they will disperse. There are too many examples in history. Recently Yugoslavia fell apart, because it was a union of several disparate cultures that did not managed to assimilate. East and West Germany reunited because they are of the same people and culture, and the desire of the people to become one is strong.

    In Singapore and Malaysia, for example, the "multi-cultural" society has been a success (or at least not a disaster) because there is a clear strong majority culture. If the three main races were to be more balanced in proportion I am not sure if we would have enjoyed the peace we had.

    Indonesia is another danger zone, under the "largest muslim country" label, it is a collection of 13000 islands and hundreds of tribes and cultures. Is it any wonder the central government goes all out to tackle any regional uprising?

    For the exact same reason the Chinese government is concerned about separatist activities in Tibet and Xinjiang.

    So, in another 100 years, if the Taiwanese doesn't look any different from the Chinese, the people will eventually have the desire to unite, because of family ties and business links. Now you will also see why the Chinese is so incensed by the attempt to differentiate the "Taiwanese" from the Chinese (by teaching Hokkien in schools for example). Well, perhaps they should teach tribal dance and languages in the schools instead.

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    I'm so sorry for making that last line in my first post, it was careless of me to make my opinion known. But please dun OT. We are talking about the elections here, not about how the world should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiama
    Lien-Song and their supporters are in a silent protest, demanding a recount of polls, still very happening at this hour. i support them tho im not taiwanese
    Ya. now in 2:42 AM, and it is reported that the supporters still surrounded and would not leave the court compound, not even the person in charge of the crowd can call them off.

    Things seem like getting out of hand. Lian/Song can't even get their supporters to calm down and have them dismantle.
    The silent protest, lian zhan said that it should be silent so that it won't disturb those living near and around the compound; and in the end, the "silence" lasted for only half an hour. Now it is noisy and i think worse than day time.(poor chaps, those living there )

    People tends to get tired and aroused with this kind of gathering->not getting a good nice sleep, how about food/water? and the emotions. When people feel tired and the emotions get too high, and the organizer can't even guide them, but have to follow the crowds, there is the danger of mob/riot.
    A group of aroused/tired/high emotion/and maybe hungry and thirsty crowd, this is like playing with flames.

    I can't make clear decision when i am too tired, and i guess those supporters are normal human beings too.

    It is very irresponsible for the part of the organizer, not to restrain the crowds and call off the crowds, let them have a good rest, and then take whatever legal steps intended when the emotion is more calm down.

    Just my 2 cents tots.

  8. #28
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    there was an article in the Chinese papers two days back, suggesting things may get out of hand if the results were deemed "unfair" or the margins were too thin.

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    If Sentosa declare independence do you think our government would just sit around?
    I think China is gonna act if ah bian got the ballz to declare independence.
    The Taiwanese people will suffer if China acts.
    China have been known to attack for the sake of Face saving as in the case of the Sino-Viet war where china attacked vietnam and then pulled out after going almost 1/2 of vietnam....... Will China do a retake ????

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    Quote Originally Posted by emollientcolt
    If Sentosa declare independence do you think our government would just sit around?
    I think China is gonna act if ah bian got the ballz to declare independence.
    The Taiwanese people will suffer if China acts.
    China have been known to attack for the sake of Face saving as in the case of the Sino-Viet war where china attacked vietnam and then pulled out after going almost 1/2 of vietnam....... Will China do a retake ????
    Sentosa is island for tourist, the management there didn't had a war with singapore government and retreated there.

    Taiwan government, had a war in with communist government, and retreated to taiwan.

    So you are saying that both cases are the same?

    ya.. agree on the communist government scared of lossing face, and can attack just for the sake of face.

  11. #31
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    anyone watching taiwan election live now?
    Sorry. We've got "Sex in the City" in the other channel leh.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by emollientcolt
    China have been known to attack for the sake of Face saving as in the case of the Sino-Viet war where china attacked vietnam and then pulled out after going almost 1/2 of vietnam....... Will China do a retake ????
    No the Chinese did not go "almost 1/2 of vietnam…". it was also not the intention of that conflict to do so (doesn't matter whether the PLA could do it even if they had wanted to).

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheechee
    Taiwan government, had a war in with communist government, and retreated to taiwan.
    It should be remembered that the KMT considers themselves to be the rightful ruler of China (Taiwan included) and that they have merely being forced to retreat to the Province of Taiwan in order to eventually return and drive out the Communist "bandits".

    As such, the KMT will never want independence for Taiwan.

    ya.. agree on the communist government scared of lossing face, and can attack just for the sake of face.
    To be fair, I wouldn't say they would attack for the sake of face. It goes much deeper down to the pride of a race. On the other hand, there is also the real-politiks of Tibet and Xinjiang.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwchoy
    It should be remembered that the KMT considers themselves to be the rightful ruler of China (Taiwan included) and that they have merely being forced to retreat to the Province of Taiwan in order to eventually return and drive out the Communist "bandits".

    As such, the KMT will never want independence for Taiwan.
    Yes, the KMT wanted to peace talk with communist government before ah bian get elected, but then the communist government could not agree to "equal status" talk with taiwan KMT government then.
    But now, i guess, the communist government would rather take the only chance to hold peace talk with KMT-controlled government(if KMT managed to), than to have ah bian on the other line.
    That is basically a change in attitude.
    But now, KMT cannot stand too firm on their previous commitment too.

    Quote Originally Posted by hwchoy
    To be fair, I wouldn't say they would attack for the sake of face. It goes much deeper down to the pride of a race. On the other hand, there is also the real-politiks of Tibet and Xinjiang.
    It is not the communist government that is the trouble, they love face, but they do know how to avoid trouble. It is the generation of china mainland
    youths, especially guys. Just browse thru the chat channels or forums in the web and you will see how people yell at killing taiwanese and wage war, even before taiwan declare indepence.
    And the most quoted reasons are "not to lose face, rather bomb the land into pieces and rebuild it"

    Do browse through and you will be surprised.
    It is this kind of attitude that i think would make the problem worsen soon.

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    Both sides have their logic and both sides do not have anything to back themselves up with. Neither would want a war when economy is still unstable. China would attack but then it would also affect their economy as Taiwan invests a lot in helping with their infrastructure. This is going to be a lot of hoohaa over nothing. Even Ah Bian don't have the guts to declare independence and I'm betting China would not attack Taiwan either. Too much is stake over this issue of independence, its would be lose-lose situation if it ever came down to war. Taiwan's semi-autonomy is going to continue.

    Unless someone throws a bomb into this powderkeg, the balance is going to stay as it is. Once China manage to get itself into shape and has the capability to manage both HK and Taiwan together, then we will see progress in this matter.

    As for what Japan did in WW2. The suffering of the past generation cannot be forgotten but the responsibility is not the present generation's. They can teach their kids whatever they want. The reality is still in our museums and as long we do not forget, its all good. No point harping on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    And I feel that I must elaborate here on the situation here. A lot of us in Singapore has stereotypical view of the Taiwan-China affair. Actually it's a lot more complicated than that. I'm glad that after staying here for the past 2 months and talking to a lot of my friends and colleagues here, I've gained a better understanding on the Taiwanese point-of-view.

    A main point of the election is these recent years here, is not just about the parties' approach to the Taiwan-China issue. It's also a lot about racial and ethnic differences. The country has become deeply divided between the Minnanese and Mainlander line cos of all the campaigning. The Minanese here consider themselves the true nationals of Taiwan because they have been on the island for 400 years. The Mainlanders are those that came with the KMT when they lost the war in China. The Minnanese actually sees the KMT as invaders cos they just conveniently came to Taiwan and declared themselves in charge. and a sore point was the 28 Feb 1948 ( I hope I got the date right) massarce where the KMT supposedly killed Minnanese to put down a rebellion.

    There is a lot of support for the DPP because there's a lot of Minnanese (in the south) who dun want the KMT who they see as outsiders to decide the fate of their homeland for them. And if you really think about it, China doesn't have a very strong claim on the island, since it was ceded to Japan long before the KMT arrived.

    I hope I've the facts here right. tmc17479, please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Correcto. A lot of the locals (for lack of a better term) actually regard those, who came with KMT during the retreat, as outsiders. When KMT took over Taiwan, these locals were treated harshly and thus the resentment. 228 incident (28th Feb) was a demonstration turned ugly, resulting in a massacre. So I would assume DPP has a lot of locals supporting it, even Ah Bian is a local.

    So on one hand you have the outsiders(KMT) who wanted a reunification with China. On the other, the locals(DPP) that wanted a separation. I'm no expert on the situation but this is my understanding from frequent trips back home.

    Prismatic: There's a 228 park near the Taipei Main Station. Have you visited that place before? But I wouldn't recommend going by there at night unless you have a group of friends or a girl with you. Lots of guys there waiting for "love" Lots of museums to see around there too. I guess would be pretty crowded around this time as the Presidential Palace is around there too. KMT or DPP HQ there as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmc17479
    Prismatic: There's a 228 park near the Taipei Main Station. Have you visited that place before? But I wouldn't recommend going by there at night unless you have a group of friends or a girl with you. Lots of guys there waiting for "love" Lots of museums to see around there too. I guess would be pretty crowded around this time as the Presidential Palace is around there too. KMT or DPP HQ there as well.
    I've heard, been there a couple of time, but only ran into a couple of geezers who were looking for money... with a knife.

    Anyway, wanted to go out for coffee at Zhongshan just now, but after looking at the mess around the government centre now, we decide today is a good day to stay at home. :P

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    Hmm.....I know there's a fantastic coffeeshop at Yi die shooping centre. Should be around zhongshan station as well. It's called Melange, do give it a try. HAve fun there. Tell me when you are planning to return, might ask you to help me bring back some stuff

  19. #39
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    Haha.. I like this Gao Siong Mayor.

    Below is in chinese:

    下面這几篇可以讓您多了解有關謝長侹的:

    1)親民黨立委質疑在垃圾中找到被丟棄的選票

    謝長廷回答:一接獲電話,我們立即放下手邊的事情,和檢察官、警察一起趕到現場,將現場包圍起來,就像處理 命案現場那樣圍著,然後開始一包一包的找,找了半天什麼都沒有,但是沒關係,因為我們很重視檢舉,並且我也 下達了指示:以後要丟垃圾,一定要先打電話給林享能,告訴對方說,我們這裡有一包垃圾要處理了,你要不要看 一下?(對記者認真解釋)我甚至可以將要丟棄的垃圾先送過去給他,當然不是一般垃圾不然他會以為我們在糟蹋 他,是回收垃圾而已。我有特別下達指令,就是區公所要丟回收垃圾前,一定要打電話給林享能,既 然社
    會已經互相不信任了,那我們盡量做到能讓對手滿意嘛!如果你要查 到我謝長廷家,我到垃圾前,也可以先打電話通知你一下。


    2)包圍高雄高等法院要求「保留」槍案所有證據的訴求

    謝長廷回答:這也很奇怪,槍案不是在我高雄發生的,你要我保留什麼證據?


    3)包圍高雄高等法院,要陳總統露肚子驗傷。

    謝長廷回答:這個我也有下達指令,因為陳總統在台北,如果很窮缺車馬費上台北 的,我會考慮補助他幾百塊上台北,因為陳總統不在我這裡。又或許,陳總統哪天決定了,各縣市停留兩天,以供 民眾檢視他肚子的時候,那就會輪到我高雄,現在你包圍我高雄高等法院,說要看陳總統的 肚子,我很為難。

    以上,就是我對一些問題的回答,因為為了讓社會盡快回到和平,只要是我能配合的我都很願意配合,但是不關我 的事的,我真的沒辦法了。

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    Please observe the guidelines for Kopitiam:

    In addition to the basic tenets, although Kopitiam is meant as a catch-all area for things not related to photography, posts/threads which are:
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    As such I am closing this thread and will be removing it soon.

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