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Thread: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

  1. #41

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    I honestly don't believe there is a difference optically between a MIJ and a MIV lens. Its all in the mind, people just have the misconception that MIJ stuffs is definitely better.
    Life is like photography, we develop from the negatives.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by neon2 View Post
    It may not be the difference of MIJ or MIV, but the handling of freight operators that send the assembled lenses from Vietnam to Japan. In the process of shipping, there can be a small percentage of goods being damaged during delivery in bulk. I have heard some stories of damaged goods at the bottom layers due to stacking.
    Very hard to believe. By this argument, its best not to ship anything at all (Japan > S'pore will also cause more damages). Even eggs will have to use to hands to personally 'hoop' it from the hen, else they will be damage during shipments.
    Its possible once in a while due to serious mishandling by the logistics ppl, but overall items are safe. Items are packed in individual boxes, and then onto larger boxes and onto pallets. These are of course reinforced and cushioned by cardboard/styrofoam/bubbble wrap (like your new TV for instance). No company can accept packaging and logistic services that keep damaging goods, it certainly affects the bottom line.

    There are in fact drop test, packaging test and mech shock/vibration tests for most of these products
    Last edited by pinholecam; 1st March 2010 at 04:43 PM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron80 View Post
    I honestly don't believe there is a difference optically between a MIJ and a MIV lens. Its all in the mind, people just have the misconception that MIJ stuffs is definitely better.
    maybe they get off imagining that japan factory workers look like this:



    whereas vietnamese factory workers look like this:




  4. #44

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by clioboy View Post

    a) a Japanese, paid USD$50 an hour, has gone thru in college/university in an established education system, certified and trained according to Japanese's QC system and in-house training, only then be able to handle the lens.

    or

    b) a vietnamese, paid USD$5 an hour, similarly educated in a vietnam college/university, certified and trained according to Japanese's QC system, translated from Japanese and in-house training, only then be able to handle the lens.
    no, no difference to me.

    are you saying that having an established education system does anything for work attitudes and ability to assemble lenses?

    p.s. i'm off to japan to be a factory worker. if i work 9-6, that's 450usd every day, and 9K usd every month. who wants to be a banker and be stressed when you can be a pentax japan factory worker??
    Last edited by night86mare; 1st March 2010 at 05:10 PM.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by scorpioh View Post
    I agree with Flowerpot on this. The place of manufacture does matters. It's not just the process, its the whole CULTURE!!! Japanese are very rigourous and demanding where quality is concerned.
    not really, i don't think anyone cares where those vending machine schoolgirl panties come from.



    just kidding.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    i swear, made in vietnam products are seriously horrible.

    the other day i just gave my lens a friendly pat, and it came apart:



    to my horror, the lens seems to have TWO rear mounts and 2 REAR LENS CAPS. i am wondering how i could even use it in the first place! must be that funky vietnamese engineering.

    now i am wondering where i can find a pentax vietnam factory worker to assemble it back together for me again.

    p.s. just kidding, my kit lens is made in vietnam and it's held up for pretty damn long.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    maybe they get off imagining that japan factory workers look like this:


    ok then i want MIJ...
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  8. #48

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by pinholecam View Post
    Very hard to believe. By this argument, its best not to ship anything at all (Japan > S'pore will also cause more damages). Even eggs will have to use to hands to personally 'hoop' it from the hen, else they will be damage during shipments.
    Its possible once in a while due to serious mishandling by the logistics ppl, but overall items are safe. Items are packed in individual boxes, and then onto larger boxes and onto pallets. These are of course reinforced and cushioned by cardboard/styrofoam/bubbble wrap (like your new TV for instance). No company can accept packaging and logistic services that keep damaging goods, it certainly affects the bottom line.

    There are in fact drop test, packaging test and mech shock/vibration tests for most of these products
    When you have friends working in the logistic industry and they tell you stories about such things, you will wonder why some people get bad copy of lenses. Why 1 lense SDM malfunction in 2 weeks, while others last them 2 years without problems. Of course, all these damages are only minority.
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by neon2 View Post
    When you have friends working in the logistic industry and they tell you stories about such things, you will wonder why some people get bad copy of lenses. Why 1 lense SDM malfunction in 2 weeks, while others last them 2 years without problems. Of course, all these damages are only minority.
    see if they want to publicize the full QC methodology for all their lenses rather then the top lines. See what their QC considered Pass Inspection.
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  10. #50

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by clioboy View Post
    no problems..just getting the facts right tat's all..

    then i like to pose a question to the floor.

    will it make a difference if the assembly worker is:

    a) a Japanese, paid USD$50 an hour, has gone thru in college/university in an established education system, certified and trained according to Japanese's QC system and in-house training, only then be able to handle the lens.

    or

    b) a vietnamese, paid USD$5 an hour, similarly educated in a vietnam college/university, certified and trained according to Japanese's QC system, translated from Japanese and in-house training, only then be able to handle the lens.

    pay more means better quality?

    how about this:

    a) a japanese who can easily find another job in Japan.

    or

    b) a vietnamese who really treasure his job as he really needs the money.


    seriously, both our scenarios dont make sense at all. These are all assumptions that may or may not be true. And definitely do not affect the quality of the lenses.
    Last edited by liveevil; 1st March 2010 at 09:34 PM.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Previously worked at a Japanese company, always and always, Japanese people have the direct control over QC. Even send their best people to handle such as they QC is the most critical part of the process.
    I dunno!!!
    It's banana-zero-neh. :)

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    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    no, no difference to me.

    are you saying that having an established education system does anything for work attitudes and ability to assemble lenses?

    p.s. i'm off to japan to be a factory worker. if i work 9-6, that's 450usd every day, and 9K usd every month. who wants to be a banker and be stressed when you can be a pentax japan factory worker??
    I beleive it's the culture that makes the difference.
    Japan is an industrailized country way before Singapore, not to mention VN.

    Does anyone knows that Voigtlander cam and lens made in Rollei Singapore at that time had quality issue? It's not difficult to google search to find such info.

    In one of the thread, I mentioned the lens elements may be from same overseas source, that the box says AIV, not MIV.

    To classified as MIV or CO (Country of Origin), you need to have certain % component made in VN. You can see on the box, it is printed ASSEMBLED IN VN.

    Perhaps the thread title should be Made In Japan vs Assembled in Vietnam?
    Last edited by Ben Loke; 1st March 2010 at 10:21 PM.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by liveevil View Post
    pay more means better quality?

    how about this:

    a) a japanese who can easily find another job in Japan.

    or

    b) a vietnamese who really treasure his job as he really needs the money.


    seriously, both our scenarios dont make sense at all. These are all assumptions that may or may not be true. And definitely do not affect the quality of the lenses.
    A Japanese stays with a company longer....

  14. #54

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Its an interesting topic to 'talk' about... So, i intend to keep it that way.

    Remember Rollei Singapore some 20 yrs ago at Chai Chee Industrial Park? It took Rollei 10 years to realised that lens manufacturing its simply not possible in the tropics.

    Binos, military optics, navigation optics... there are a few versions of location manufacturers then, and Singapore's is the most problematic. In terms of precision alignment (not the fault of production/human error), the climate condition here is just too challenging.

    Sigma Corp. couldn't even be bother with the 'attractive' lure then... knowing the difficulties. This was reviewed by its President's speech.

    That was 20 years then... 10 years ago, Sigma have its film PnS (the very first) made & assembled in Indonesia and it was a TOTAL flop. Nothing works! Despite QC tick of approval. I was shopping for one for a foreign friend(he insisted on a Sigma then!) and I have to go thru 4 new cameras & finally settled on the 5th one.

    The earlier 4 pieces? The 28-105 lens is beautifully multi-coated with a finger print within. On another, a different screw type is used at the base of camera. And another the rubberise coating on hand grid part is uneven...etc

    Sigma is bad? No... of course not but when you farm the job out to a much lesser stringent culture that doesn't practice Quality in their life, it will simply reflect on its product. To qoute an MP friend... "You simply can't train farmers to understand what's precision is all about..."

    I preferred Made in Japan as far as optics is concern, quality hence the reason I owe Fender (Japan) Stratocasters too despite it originate from USA.
    Last edited by Francis Lee; 1st March 2010 at 10:37 PM.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Loke View Post
    I beleive it's the culture that makes the difference.
    Japan is an industrailized country way before Singapore, not to mention VN.
    cultures change. i think it's fair to say that singapore's current generation has a very different mindset as compared to the people in their 40s, 50s.

    similarly, the same applies for japan.

    i think in this day and age, it has progressed to a point where the differences are much more unnoticeable as before - in particular because more companies are taking the "cheaper labour" route, hence you will see more and more things being made in poorer countries like vietnam, china, thailand, indonesia.

    when i was younger MIC was like a dirty thing to be tagged with, and in some sense it was rightfully so.

    today? things are different. so let's have a more open mind. as far as i see it, forcing the issue by making sure all lenses are made in japan simply will lead to unhappiness as well. labour costs will go up, thus these will have to be passed on via lens price.

    yes, maybe you might get better QC by having everything MIJ. but every company has to weigh the costs versus the benefits. given current trends, it is clear where most of them (not just pentax) are looking to.
    Last edited by night86mare; 1st March 2010 at 11:06 PM.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    There was a time that "Made in Japan" used to mean "cheap imitation" and second-rate quality. Until the Japanese mastered quality control......

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    when i was younger MIC was like a dirty thing to be tagged with, and in some sense it was rightfully so.

    today? things are different. so let's have a more open mind. as far as i see it, forcing the issue by making sure all lenses are made in japan simply will lead to unhappiness as well. labour costs will go up, thus these will have to be passed on via lens price.

    yes, maybe you might get better QC by having everything MIJ. but every company has to weigh the costs versus the benefits. given current trends, it is clear where most of them (not just pentax) are looking to.
    My point is that assembled in VN is not bad move as long as the quality of the parts & QC not compromised. To convince our mindset that AIV is as good as MIJ, it will takes time, just like MiC or MiROC in my early days.

    When my company product was MIJ, seldom received complaint from customers about QC issue. Not until factory move to Big Road, then situation changed slightly.

    Finally, buyers will expect lower cost and that what manufacturers are doing by relocating. Lower cost means lower price to consumer & most of all staying competitve.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    My first copy of the legendary Voigtlander Apo-Lanthar 125mm f/2.5 Macro which was made by Cosina had a problem with the aperture blade assembly. This was a Made in Japan lens. Got it replaced. When I purchased my Voigtlander 58mm Nokton, I had the chance to select between 3 copies. One had a clear and obvious bubble in one of the elements and the other had a black speck on one of the elements, even though it was the sharpest of the 3 copies. All made in Japan. Go figure...

    I still have a Nikon point and shoot that's made in Indonesia... it's discontinued but it still works flawlessly but contrast that with issues surrounding the 18-200mm VR that's made in Thailand. Bottomline is there will always be the good and the bad no matter where something is made...

  19. #59

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by banana0ne View Post
    Previously worked at a Japanese company, always and always, Japanese people have the direct control over QC. Even send their best people to handle such as they QC is the most critical part of the process.
    have you ever worked in a company in vietnam to compare the qc? as far as the discussion is going no valid facts/comparisons has been presented that can say that MIJ lenses are better than AIV.

    even if it somebody already have worked in either japan or vietnam manufacturing company it wont suffice to invalidate the claim of the Pentax US president that both MIJ or AIV have the same quality, unless he's worked in both company's QCs and knows the details.

    and about the credibility of the Pentax US President? as far as i can tell the argument about this is weak. Saying that an author lacks the authority to write/say about a topic is a variant of ad hominem. The question is whether the author is correct or not.

    so far the idea that MIJ lenses are better than AIV are just nothing but rumors.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Made in Japan vs Made in Vietnam? No difference says Pentax USA President

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    cultures change. i think it's fair to say that singapore's current generation has a very different mindset as compared to the people in their 40s, 50s.

    similarly, the same applies for japan.

    i think in this day and age, it has progressed to a point where the differences are much more unnoticeable as before - in particular because more companies are taking the "cheaper labour" route, hence you will see more and more things being made in poorer countries like vietnam, china, thailand, indonesia.

    when i was younger MIC was like a dirty thing to be tagged with, and in some sense it was rightfully so.

    today? things are different. so let's have a more open mind. as far as i see it, forcing the issue by making sure all lenses are made in japan simply will lead to unhappiness as well. labour costs will go up, thus these will have to be passed on via lens price.

    yes, maybe you might get better QC by having everything MIJ. but every company has to weigh the costs versus the benefits. given current trends, it is clear where most of them (not just pentax) are looking to.
    Actually the same was said about MIJ, MITW, MIK in the 50's,60's,70's
    So MIC will almost certainly move from the perception of poor quality to high quality. In fact there is already differentiation for MIC products, it depends on the company you buy from.
    Haier for example is often recognized quality oriented (In the start up days, the CEO in fact assembled the workers, and made them smash up those non-conforming products that they had assembled - NO REWORK!).

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