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Thread: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Without the US support, China would have started a full scale invasion of Taiwan ages ago.....For all those supporting China in this... do you seriously want to see Taiwan fall, the CCCP in China getting more powerful and more PRCs flowing into our country because as our mentor says it, we need to build ties with our "friend"

    I say arm Taiwan to the teeth man! This is the only way to prevent China from invading.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    What total Rubbish!

    A Government makes money from Arms sales and any other sales via taxation of businesses.
    Sure. But they make money regardless of what is sold, ie whether it's wheat or guns or software or trains. So why pick on arms sales?

    Do you think that such occasional high profile arms sales adds that much to the govt's tax revenues? Haven't you seen cases where arms export licences were rejected? If $$ was the driver, there'd be no need to set up an approvals process.

    Arms sales approvals are driven by policy considerations, eg is the nation friendly to american interests, will this upset the balance of power, etc.

    In many cases, the us actually provided military aid to many friendly countries to buy arms because they were allies, so in effect not only did they not make any money, the us govt even gave its own money. But they had reasons to do so, eg to support south vietnam against north vietnam, etc.
    Last edited by Xtol19; 8th February 2010 at 09:49 PM.

  3. #23
    Member LiuLangMao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    ya crap give money to the future terrorists.......train the taliban to fight the russian....
    they shd have support their allied UK to send the teletubbies in instead of supporting the taliban
    its all abt divide and rule....full of yank BS.....
    Last edited by LiuLangMao; 8th February 2010 at 11:05 PM.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xtol19 View Post
    Sure. But they make money regardless of what is sold, ie whether it's wheat or guns or software or trains. So why pick on arms sales?

    Do you think that such occasional high profile arms sales adds that much to the govt's tax revenues? Haven't you seen cases where arms export licences were rejected? If $$ was the driver, there'd be no need to set up an approvals process.

    Arms sales approvals are driven by policy considerations, eg is the nation friendly to american interests, will this upset the balance of power, etc.

    In many cases, the us actually provided military aid to many friendly countries to buy arms because they were allies, so in effect not only did they not make any money, the us govt even gave its own money. But they had reasons to do so, eg to support south vietnam against north vietnam, etc.
    Yawn and your point is? The fact is they gain money from the sale, something you failed to appreciate. The rest is all window dressing after the fact. The fact that in the USA nearly 20% of their workforce and over 20% of their corporate sales are military in nature has no bearing on it either. Nor does arms restrictions which are very old news indeed and have been around for at least 5 documented millenia.

    The fact that the yanks are pi$$ing China off with the sale to Taiwan and China's reactions in the last 24 hours are far more critical and crucial for US foreign policy globally is not something that should or needs to be discussed on a photography forum.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xtol19 View Post

    In many cases, the us actually provided military aid to many friendly countries to buy arms because they were allies, so in effect not only did they not make any money, the us govt even gave its own money. But they had reasons to do so, eg to support south vietnam against north vietnam, etc.
    so fun hor

    support taliban to fight russians

    then have a fun time denying that any of the money/weaponry went to bin laden.

    close one hole to open 8 more........ that's what happens when you meddle, meddle, meddle, self appointing yourself as the global policeman to justify playing god.
    Last edited by night86mare; 8th February 2010 at 11:18 PM.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    (edited)
    US does not have a stellar record in their past actions in Asia.
    Sometimes they back the wrong horse (Nguyen Van Thieu, apparently disliked by his own people in South Vietnam) or may have had a hand in coups to put the wrong guy in charge. (e.g. Lon Nol in Cambodia)

    Maybe they don't understand Asia.
    Maybe their people who do understand Asia, are ranked very low back in the US political pecking order. And thus good advice is brushed aside.

    Traditionally, US has concentrated on Europe and Middle East. (Oil)
    In the past, also on Russia. But maybe cooled it after end of cold war and breakup of USSR.

    Within US also a lot of inter-agency rivalry.
    The CIA does not cooperate with the FBI, and so on.... Then there are the powerful lobby groups. So final decision on Asia may be a bit haywire.

    In Iran, when the Czar of Iran (Pahlavi) was still around, US supplied it with planes and the Phoenix missile system. Then the Czar got overthrown and the sophisticated missile system fell into the wrong hands.

    Fast forward, Russia invaded Afghanistan. US supplied the Taliban with US Stinger missiles to fight the Russians. After the Russians left, the Taliban used the Stinger missiles against US helicopters and planes.

    So you see, one screw up after another.

    Let the US sell what ever they want to Taiwan.
    After re-unification, all of these arms will become a part of PRC's arsenal of weapons.
    Taiwan fight PRC? No, lah. Chinese people are smarter than that. Now is the age of prosperity for Asia. Chinese people just want to lead prosperous lives. Why would they want to drag themselves down in a war.

    Who is the most dangerous (potential) enemy of US in Asia?
    It is not China.
    Not even the drama-king Kim Jong Il in North Korea.
    I believe it is Japan. The ever-ambitious country that is lying low now. Waiting for an excuse to be allowed the re-militarise once again...this time with smart hi-tech weapons. They are so hi-tech they can easily become a nuclear power fast. Not to mention biological weapons...germ warfare...remember unit 731 during 2nd WW.
    Last edited by ricohflex; 11th February 2010 at 07:18 AM. Reason: improve language

  7. #27

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    Within US also a lot of inter-agency rivalry.
    The CIA does not cooperate with the FBI, and so on.... Then there are the powerful lobby groups. So final decision on Asia may be a bit haywire.

    In Iran, when the Czar of Iran (Pahlavi) was still around, US supplied it with planes and the Phoenix missile system. Then the Czar got overthrown and the sophisticated missile system fell into the wrong hands.
    correct on most count except these two. fbi and cia is not not cooperate...they operate in different jurisdiction. the problem is critical information were timely distributed for them to be of any use.

    and there is oni one country to have claim to a czar...that's imperial russia. the iranian thing is called shah. but this is nit-picking. but ur right...the usa did support the opposition on the iranian shah, which is the current gahmen now opposed to the american hegemony. hmmm....the usa has a tendency to support opposition gahmen to overthrow gahmens hor....

    and one more thing...IF china passed a law to say...they will supply sophisticated weapons systems to cuba as part of their cuba relations act, what would america do leh? and why does usa has extra-territorial law that others (non-americans) have to obey?
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    I truly believe it is JAPAN. The ever-ambitious monster that is lying low now. Waiting for an excuse to be allowed the re-militarise once again...this time with smart hi-tech weapons. They are so hi-tech they can easily become a nuclear power fast. Not to mention biological weapons...germ warfare...remember unit 731 in Manchuria during 2nd WW.
    That is a very strong statement. Is not like my family doesn't have members that went thru WWII etc...but let's not open up a can of worms.......

    And we know that there is a reason why US military still wants a base in Jap(whether there is personal interests or not is another reason)

  9. #29

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by iMac08 View Post
    That is a very strong statement. Is not like my family doesn't have members that went thru WWII etc...but let's not open up a can of worms.......

    And we know that there is a reason why US military still wants a base in Jap(whether there is personal interests or not is another reason)
    hmmm...i believe the base issue is the reason usa is supporting multiple regime change around the world....so they have basses every where in the world in accordance with their self appointed world sheriff role.
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    hmm i don't want to act smarter than i am...these things are very political...no right and wrong....The base issue has its purpose and of course it brings along its own set of problems..

  11. #31

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    err.....in politics...everything is wrong until proven right...lol......
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  12. #32

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    The irony Peace Prize winner to sell arms. No prize for guessing who.

    In any case, this arms package had been approved for sale in April 2001 and the Taiwan government for whatever reasons only financed it now.

    IMO, I don't see the point in selling arms to Taiwan esp the F16s (if approved). It will just trigger an arms race and tension across the straits. Taiwan has more to lose if they were to fight a war with China. They are akin to Singapore in terms of military size. Our defence can only hold up for a couple of days before a neighbour comes to our aid. The question is who will support Taiwan if China was to attack. Will the US uphold the Taiwan Relations Act? Will UN support Taiwan even though it doesn't recognise them as a soverign state?

  13. #33

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by aeskywan View Post
    Without the US support, China would have started a full scale invasion of Taiwan ages ago.....For all those supporting China in this... do you seriously want to see Taiwan fall, the CCCP in China getting more powerful and more PRCs flowing into our country because as our mentor says it, we need to build ties with our "friend"

    I say arm Taiwan to the teeth man! This is the only way to prevent China from invading.
    If China attack Taiwan US will never been stupid to join the fight, US just want to earn Arm $$$. If China has the ability to conquer Taiwan they will do it long long time ago. See how they fight the viet.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokiemon View Post
    Our defence can only hold up for a couple of days before a neighbour comes to our aid.
    Not quite so, the SAF have the capabilities to maintain a "limited regional power projection" into neighbouring countries for an indefinite amount of time though it will be an economy suicide, if not a major economy disaster at the very least.

    Our military doctrines are modelled after the Israelis under their advise for a very good reason and it dreads me to think about how the international community and even our citizens will react if we were to be doing the exact same things the Israeli Armed Forces (IAF) are conducting, needless to say any war will not be fought on our homeland when diplomacy fails.
    Last edited by 9V-Orion Images; 9th February 2010 at 01:12 AM.
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Yawn and your point is? The fact is they gain money from the sale, something you failed to appreciate. The rest is all window dressing after the fact. The fact that in the USA nearly 20% of their workforce and over 20% of their corporate sales are military in nature has no bearing on it either. Nor does arms restrictions which are very old news indeed and have been around for at least 5 documented millenia.
    You've been sleeping and yawning too much to appreciate anything.

    Again, I repeat very simply: arms sales are a policy tool, carried out for political reasons. I gave the example of south vietnam, others here have given many other examples. I shld also remind you in many cases export licences were also rejected because of political considerations, eg us refused to sell fighters to pakistan, us refused to supply spare parts for fighters to indonesia, us imposed arms embargo on iran, etc.

    Purely $$$ reasons, you say?

    China is such a huge market but the us govt would never allow advanced arms sales to china. Or iran, or russia, or a dozen other countries, even though $$ would be lucrative.

    Arms sales are so sensitive that tax revenue is the least impt consideration, if it is at all.

    If you can't see this basic fact-- that weapons are for killing people thus the 1st consideration is what your buyers will do with the weapons-- then too bad for you.
    Last edited by Xtol19; 9th February 2010 at 08:38 AM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    None of these actions by the US is surprising.. I know for sure we all will soon see more and more anti Chinese sentiment and actions from the Western powers. They've been in power for so long I'm sure they won't lightly give up their position quietly without a fight. I personally think US sold arms to Taiwan for two reasons. First reason is money obviously. The US economy is bad and all their local industries and manufacturing have gone abroad. One of the last things they have left is their military machine and military spending. Also know that once government agencies have X amount of budget they will have to use it or lose it. The US seems to have to create necessary enemies to keep their military agencies budgets going afloat and keep all employee's and contractors employed. Stability is probably something they least desire.. Imagine if their last great industry drying up due to world peace. lol

    Which brings the second reason.. and that is to destabilize the Chinese /Taiwan relation. The more unstable the region the more energy, headache, and money China has to put out. It's the classic tactic of giving the enemy too many things to worry about so they cannot be focused on task of advancement. This allows time for the US to recover and slow China's domestic growth and recovery momentum. The more messy Asia is the slower China advances, and the more justification for continued US military spending to "protect" other Asian nations from the Red China threat.

    If China is smart they will not fall for this tactic and instead concentrate on peaceful domestic growth and internal social development, not military matching with the U.S. Let the US be the worlds greatest military and be the world police. Like many great empires of the past once they over stretch themselves too far they will burn themselves out. Currently there's no way any country can match the U.S's military anyway. If China can ignore this trap and concentrate on improving it's society it can naturally and peacefully rise to the top over the West. Call me negative but it's something I think the West doesn't want to see happen.
    Last edited by sayjaibow; 9th February 2010 at 09:04 AM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xtol19 View Post
    If you can't see this basic fact-- that weapons are for killing people thus the 1st consideration is what your buyers will do with the weapons-- then too bad for you.
    so you think there is no difference between selling arms to a peaceful country who will only use the weapons as a representation for deterrence is the same as selling arms to a country in a hotspot region?

    or as it has done in the past, countries that are typically violent?

    yes, weapons are used for killing people. but some countries are more than willing to use them than others.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Would they say the same thing if China supplies Cuba?

    Quote Originally Posted by sayjaibow View Post
    If China is smart they will not fall for this tactic and instead concentrate on peaceful domestic growth and internal social development, not military matching with the U.S. Let the US be the worlds greatest military and be the world police. Like many great empires of the past once they over stretch themselves too far they will burn themselves out. Currently there's no way any country can match the U.S's military anyway. If China can ignore this trap and concentrate on improving it's society it can naturally and peacefully rise to the top over the West. Call me negative but it's something I think the West doesn't want to see happen.
    the usa military is pre-eminantly powerful, true...but becoz they are so powerful, that no other powers were able to match them that they will fail. there is an adage: they can win the battle,but they'll loose the war. consider the piecemeal, and stupid minor skirmishes and wars they're engaged in now. they can win the individuals battle, but the larger 'war' of hegemony will fail.it's like a mighty giant...a single small cut wont do a thing...but with enough small cuts...the giant will bleed to death...in america's case...the small cuts appears in the form of escalating gahmen debt.
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