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Thread: Foreign talents... are they ok?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion Prieur View Post
    Do you think Singaporeans are all that goody goody when they are abroad? When I have time I'll tell some nice stories.
    it is not hard to discern a singaporean overseas..

    in my recent trip to paris, i tried to hide my face when a carriage load of singaporean tourists kept everyone from sleeping on the eurostar because the kids were talking about beer and how their parents were going to buy them beer and ho ho ho they were going to have a fun tipsy time.

    i glanced at the old man next to me in the same row and he winced and shrugged his shoulders.

    when entering the train, there was a mini-jam when an obviously singaporean family was deciding "where to put their luggage". the train conductor came by and just grabbed the luggage, shoved it into an easy empty space and told them "we don't have all day, the train has to start".

    i always like quoting nietzsche for such things. it is easy to pass comments on others, say that they are disgusting, etc. what of ourselves as a country? are you proud to be singaporean? sometimes i am. sometimes i am not, what we should always remember is that

    "if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

  2. #42

    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Integration?
    But there's no magic bullet for that

    Going abroad alone, one will tend to band with fellow countrymen
    Facing common obstacles,
    Learning from experience
    Gaining advice and support

    Longing to seek that,
    Surrounding yourself with,
    Familiar faces, language, even food

    Why venture out then?

    But it's also really tough for a PRC or Indian national
    The negative stereotypes brand you the moment you interact
    Which after an incident or two, forces them to stick together
    Rinse and repeat

    Broad level policy is just that, broad level
    It will never be perfect; pockets of complaints will always exist
    -------------------------------
    Endure. In enduring grow strong.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    If i were a foreign company looking to set up shop, ho ho ho, singapore is the place.

    Why? Because this isn't like the old days where govt just make the place pro investment. Today, the govt will pay for my investment, anything from 50% to 100%.

    So what do i do? Of course i set up here. Farm out some work to this place, make it seem i'm doing some high-tech work. In the meantime take the govt money to use elsewhere. I will hire some top graduates from local universities. Use them as some bargaining chips to ensure govt funding.

    But one thing is for certain. I will ensure my core technology will never be produced or researched here. You want technology transfer? Wait long long.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Hmm, I do think that Foreign talents are okay. But foreign talents(外來人才)and foreign people (外來人源)are different...

    And I also think that Singapore could survive without Foreign talents, as evident in Singapore becoming one of the Four Asian Tigers. But with Foreign talents, it would be easier to a certain extent. As the world has became an integrated place to live, and countries need Foreign talents to compete with the other countries.

    imo.

  5. #45
    Senior Member limwhow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenleonhart View Post
    yo bro. i'm so gonna put ur last line into the first post. WAIT FOR ME
    Wooaahhh... allenleonhart.
    I'm flattered. But at the same time so pai seh.
    But OK, I hope this title would be of some use.

  6. #46
    Senior Member limwhow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    it is not hard to discern a singaporean overseas..
    .... are you proud to be singaporean? sometimes i am. sometimes i am not...
    I have the same feelings, night86mare. As much as we Singaporeans have certain opinions about other countries' citizens, the same is true when we Singaporeans go abroad. How I sometimes wish we could call ourselves Gracious Singaporeans. I try to be one both at home and overseas. But after years of being in contact with Singaporean tourists, would say, the JB store keeper look at me through coloured-glasses coated with stereotype?
    And are we Singaporeans not guilty of the same towards, for example, our PRC or Indian National foreign co-workers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zichar View Post
    Integration?
    But there's no magic bullet for that

    Going abroad alone, one will tend to band with fellow countrymen
    ...

    But it's also really tough for a PRC or Indian national
    The negative stereotypes brand you the moment you interact

    Which after an incident or two, forces them to stick together
    Rinse and repeat

    Broad level policy is just that, broad level
    It will never be perfect; pockets of complaints will always exist
    Precisely, Zichar, as your points in red and green, integration is the political aim, but segregation is the human norm.
    Studying the history of America, one will also find tumultuous periods marked by inter-group aggression between Irish migrants, Italian migrants, and those from other parts of Europe.
    Even today, migrants from down south of USA are still giving the state police a run for their money.
    So how do they integrate?
    I personally think our Singapore Government is doing a good job. What reassured me is the stern hands of the law that is solidly in place here in Singapore. Yes, you may be able to do certain things back home and get away with it. But here, you'd better behave.

    The gov understands the glaring differences among the different group. But it uses a common interest to motivate (?coerce) all towards one direction. it is still the same like back then in the early-mid 20th centuries when the grand(great)fathers of this present generation set foot on the soil of Singapore.

    Yes, I welcome your contribution to our society.
    You want money? You work.
    You want better salary? You study, and you send your children to school.
    You want to give me trouble? I will send my mata to get you.
    Last edited by limwhow; 10th January 2010 at 03:00 AM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    For those that like to differentiate people by birth right (who your parent is, where you are born), do you think systems like apartheid or m'sia new economy policy for bumiputra are fair?

    Just because you're born here, you should automatically boss over foreign workers regardless of how capable/hardworking/much they contribute?

    If you say some of those who come has nothing to contribute, low skill level, can't speak english, I'm sure you can find a lot of singaporeans who are worse off. What about citizens who commit crime, laze around living off others? What about those citizens who are shirking their duties in doing national service (I'm sure you see a lot of chao kengs of all kind)? Are you going to chase them off the land?

    I'm born here but I can't stand it when I see my fellow citizens grumbling why foreigners are taking over jobs which are obviously shunted by singaporeans. For those grumbling about why they didn't get the higher paying job taken up by foreigners, I say look at yourself first.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    I believe without the foreign talent or foreign people we are ok.

    I have been leaving in Indonesia in the past.

    What I did not forget is "I am a foreigner in a foreign land"

    1. I give ways to locals.
    2. I respect the rules and regulation in that area.
    3. I do not create trouble.

    But if you look around the foreigners in our country not all lah dun get me wrong i dont want to create trouble ... you can see in the news. They do not respect our laws. They bring there own bad culture into singapore.

    If they abide to these rules.

    1. Respect the locals. (everything should be fine)
    2. Respect the Singapore culture and abide to them.
    3. Respect the law

    I believed we locals will be happy to have them here.

  9. #49
    Senior Member limwhow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchRival View Post
    ...You want technology transfer? Wait long long.
    Singapore Government: "Never mind. You come, you come. I just want you to set up here to provide for employment opportunities."
    [Theoretical conversation]

    Quote Originally Posted by tehzeh View Post
    Hmm, I do think that Foreign talents are okay. But foreign talents(外來人才)and foreign people (外來人源)are different...

    And I also think that Singapore could survive without Foreign talents, as evident in Singapore becoming one of the Four Asian Tigers. But with Foreign talents, it would be easier to a certain extent. ...
    tehzeh, good to see you participating in this thread here.
    In blue: How to avoid? These are mutually inclusive. With foreign talents come their spouses & children. 搞不好全家大小都来。But don't take me wrong.
    It is socially dysfunctional to have a single person here without his/her family. Human beings need the family unit as a support. And all these add on to the critical number for economic growth.
    Of course, the consequent social impact of this we'll discuss a little later down the thread.
    But number-wise, it gives us the mass.

    In red: Yupe. We would find it certainly smoother and easier to kick start things a little more, to accelerate a little faster, with our good foreign talent friends around. I am for that.
    But with the provision that these foreign talents are really talents, that help instead of hinder. How to ensure? The respective authority will really have to work hard to ascertain. (We may elaborate on this part again a little later down the thread to address that part of the discussion about competition in employment.)
    Last edited by limwhow; 10th January 2010 at 03:35 AM.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    To add 1 more thing.

    The foreigner that I really respect in Singapore are the Japanese. I salute them.

  11. #51
    Senior Member limwhow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by xMetalx View Post
    To add 1 more thing.

    The foreigner that I really respect in Singapore are the Japanese. I salute them.
    Why? Can you share with us?

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by limwhow View Post
    Why? Can you share with us?
    My experience with them....

    1. While Working with them; Very Hard Working.
    2. When talk to them; they never directly look into your eyes; every end of a sentence with a bow.
    3. Even though they are not very good in English they will try very hard to understand you before concludes anything.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by xMetalx View Post
    My experience with them....

    1. While Working with them; Very Hard Working.
    2. When talk to them; they never directly look into your eyes; every end of a sentence with a bow.
    3. Even though they are not very good in English they will try very hard to understand you before concludes anything.
    could it be becoz they are in a foreign land? or is the japanese back in japan also like dis de?
    おれのflickrださ

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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by shiruikage View Post
    could it be becoz they are in a foreign land? or is the japanese back in japan also like dis de?
    that is the polite one, wait till you come accross the yakuza

  15. #55

    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by xMetalx View Post
    My experience with them....

    1. While Working with them; Very Hard Working.
    2. When talk to them; they never directly look into your eyes; every end of a sentence with a bow.
    3. Even though they are not very good in English they will try very hard to understand you before concludes anything.
    i don't understand what's wrong with talking with my eyes look directly into yours...
    as for me, i feel myself get more respect if people who talk with me is looking directly to my eyes...

    i'm FT btw.. and i'm not japanese...

  16. #56

    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by limwhow View Post
    Singapore Government: "Never mind. You come, you come. I just want you to set up here to provide for employment opportunities."
    [Theoretical conversation]
    Of course i will. The locals employed are funded by sg govt money anyway. As far as i see it, free labour for me.
    And one day when govt $$ dry up, i'll just pull out. And i'll make sure sg will not end up with any significant knowledge/technological advantage.
    In the meantime, Singapore can eat!
    Last edited by ArchRival; 10th January 2010 at 09:33 AM.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    1/3 of the people in london are foreign-born.

    in 2005, 35% of new yorkers are foreign-born.

    what do you make of that?

    sometime, you should go and live in another country for a while, see how the locals there talk of your nationality, race.. maybe walk by a drunk 14 year old on a bridge in london calling you "chink! hey chink! look here chink!" and you just smile at him because it's become normal for you. maybe you will understand why i abhor such statements.
    still. u realised london is pretty much a screwed up place? why bother raising countries with not as good standards in their social hospitality? we arent looking to er. go like.

    hey i wanna be a more racist country than urs right?

    pick japan. japan may have a lot of foreigners going there, but their society requires people to fit in to them. People who go to japan to work/stay are required to learn japanese so as to converse. people who work in germany have to learn german to converse.

    what i feel is that FTs has to respect the society that they are going to stay in. If FTs wanna work in singapore, shldnt they at least be trained to converse with our people? enough said.
    Secondly, singaporeans have a general negative attitude towards FTs, not that we are racist as per se. but rather amidst the lack land, housing, and a small local economy, we are facing threats from FTs, who earn money in singapore and return it back to their native country. This is what we know as a outflow of money from singapore to... lets say china. It isnt benificial to singapore in the long term run. and hence the FTs---> citizens. at least they are part of singapore.

    Singapore is a country originally made up of immigrants. However, we chose to call this our home, and took up the national identity of singapore. in order for singapore to really survive, what we need is accepting the FTs, and hopefuly the FTs become singaporeans. This will expand our local economy, while hopefully, improving our standards of living. Singaporeans need to work on their social attitude aspect too.

    we are not like london where it is an ethnic state, as compared to singapore where we are made up of immigrants initially. hence, the big difference. we can accept FTs, provided that they are willing to conform to our society, communicate with us, in the long term run settle down in singapore, and hopefully singaporeans will have a more accepting attitude towards them

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by aryanto View Post
    that is the polite one, wait till you come accross the yakuza
    well... yakuza, dun piss them they dun piss u? actually quite a few of them are like mini governments. at least they dun go around randomly raping ppl, shooting or killing them. they do have a certain code of honour

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchRival View Post
    Of course i will. The locals employed are funded by sg govt money anyway. As far as i see it, free labour for me.
    And one day when govt $$ dry up, i'll just pull out. And i'll make sure sg will not end up with any significant knowledge/technological advantage.
    In the meantime, Singapore can eat!
    and precisely this is what we dun want:x if like tat hor i rather no FTs in singapore.

    now the crux is : how can we convince FTS (not FWs) to actually settle down in singapore, as compared to leech on our society then leave like a parasite? (:

    as i said liao. FTs come here invest, money goes back, no tech transfer, also useless right? what we want is local talents. rely on singapore more than rely on china etc etc.

    look at lucas arts ~~ (once again its lucas!)
    they set up branch in singapore BRINGING tech with them. we have local talents who work under them, learn and keep this tech in singapore, further developing. this is wad we want.

    what we do not want: china come singapore set up company like factory nia. no tech brought here. r&d done back in china. after they finish, close company, people no job, china pat pat backside walk back home. and ur faced with a few hundred jobless people by then.

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    Default Re: Foreign talents... are they ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by limwhow View Post
    tehzeh, good to see you participating in this thread here.
    In blue: How to avoid? These are mutually inclusive. With foreign talents come their spouses & children. 搞不好全家大小都来。But don't take me wrong.
    It is socially dysfunctional to have a single person here without his/her family. Human beings need the family unit as a support. And all these add on to the critical number for economic growth.
    Of course, the consequent social impact of this we'll discuss a little later down the thread.
    But number-wise, it gives us the mass.

    In red: Yupe. We would find it certainly smoother and easier to kick start things a little more, to accelerate a little faster, with our good foreign talent friends around. I am for that.
    But with the provision that these foreign talents are really talents, that help instead of hinder. How to ensure? The respective authority will really have to work hard to ascertain. (We may elaborate on this part again a little later down the thread to address that part of the discussion about competition in employment.)
    Hi

    I would say it's understandable for the foreign talents to bring their family to Singapore. And yes, I have seen people from PRC who are still speaking their own languages (少數民族)and I can't understand why they are here. But the population in Singapore has to be proportionate (I hope you get what I mean, it's quite sensitive if I say it here), and we do need the foreign people to take on jobs that Singaporeans do not want. Some of them are less choosy as they are from Less Developed Countries. And We need more people... since many couples nowadays aren't intending to have a child.

    Yes, it is very difficult to ensure that 90% of the foreign talents are really talents, but I do not think that that's the objective (as stated above). I have also seen foreign talents coming to Singapore for a few years and migrating to other developed countries by using the name 'Singapore's PR', and not 'LDC's Citizen'.

    But let's face it, Singapore is country of immigrants back then. It's difficult to change this fact and turn Singapore into a Japan or whatnot.

    IMO.
    Last edited by tehzeh; 10th January 2010 at 01:38 PM. Reason: sensitive issues..

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