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Thread: Shoot alot on a dSLR

  1. #21
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    thanks for specifying the ideal keeper rate, Ian!

    fortunately it's realistic enought, and not 100% for each of them...

  2. #22

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    passport photo machines: 100%

    (onus on the subject to try not to blink!)

  3. #23
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    Speed cameras are pretty spot on too me think.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit
    Speed cameras are pretty spot on too me think.
    so... who are the photographers hiding in those boxes? own up!!!

  5. #25
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    My keeper rate for wildlife is actually higher than my sports. Guess it depends on which area of photography you are focusing on. Different skills to develop to increase keeper rates in each area.


    And yeah, 2 rolls of film is pretty unrealistically low even for film, esp for events or sports. Hmmm... makes me wonder what kind of sessions requires only 2 rolls (which is 2*36 = 72 shots???).

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus
    And yeah, 2 rolls of film is pretty unrealistically low even for film, esp for events or sports. Hmmm... makes me wonder what kind of sessions requires only 2 rolls (which is 2*36 = 72 shots???).
    When you don't have money to burn?

    If it is for personal enjoyment/practice, anything beyond the average of 2 rolls for an 1 hour event is an overkill. For example, I used only 1 roll of film for the IVP Canoe Polo event. No need to be accountable to anyone else, so even if it's a low keeper rate it's okie. Suprisingly, there's still (for me) a number of keepers in just one roll.

    If it is for serious work, shooting 4-5 rolls or more for an event is nothing. For example, I spent a total of 7 rolls covering a musical for a friend, including backstage and 2 shows. Not cheap considering I used Press 800! Plus all the developing and scanning/printing leh?

    When I recently covered another play using a DSLR, I took more than 100 shots for just the performance itself, not to mention another 60-70 backstage and other "fun" shots.

    Basically, with film, I was really hesitant to snap, even if it's for serious work because of the 36-exposure boundary...having to change film in the middle of an event is not very desirable sometimes. Because of that I did miss a number of good moments.

    With digital, of course trigger-happy lah...take a few more shots of the same scene in case that person blink or cover his mouth or what...anyway it's "free"...so it's not entirely impossible to tend to "overshoot" using digital.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by smallaperture
    I have heard a guy fired 300 shots in a single outing. Try doing that in a film SLR and you'll be broke in no time.
    Actually, believe it or not, people have been shooting 300 frames in a single outing for a really long time now; it's nothing new whether film or digital. It's just that now with the mass appeal of digital, more people own cameras and more people, with less experience, are finding the need to machine gun scenes when there isn't any need. Doesn't mean there aren't occasions that do require machine gunning. Or at least serious quantity shooting; not necessarily the same thing.

    With dSLR, just need to recharge your battery and erase the dud shots. I think it's an utter waste of time and effort.

    As others have already pointed out, if you think this way then you're seriously mistaken. Shutters can and will fail, and other items within the camera, not just shutters will also wear down; the imaging sensor for instance.

    When I shoot, I take time to think and adjust and compose.

    Good for you. Curiously enough, I try to too.

    So far the most I have done in almost 30 years of shooting is 2 rolls in a session and that was a big waste of film IMO.

    In which case you can't have been thinking, adjusting and composing properly then. That's not an insult; but think about it. If you think, adjust and compose before every frame, then it doesn't matter if you shoot 1 roll or 20, every single frame will have been thoughtfully composed and therefore not a waste.

    At the rate of 200 shots a session would mean 10,000 shots a year. In 3 years, the camera would more or less have reached the design life of the shutter and mirror - the camera would be more or less finished.

    That makes a lot of assumptions. For instance, that you only shoot one session a week. I shoot three sessions a week on good weeks, more on bad weeks. You're assuming shutters are worth 30 000 exposures; even the base models (excluding the 300D and D70 as I have no information on them) are worth more, and the professional bodies in excess of 100 000 exposures. Even based on 200 exosures x 3 sessions x 52 weeks = 31 200 exposures a year, a professional DSLR from Canon or Nikon would still be expected to last around 5 years (based on your figures, 15 years!). By which time the camera would have long served its purpose, paid its way, and been superceded in the marketplace.

    Counting exposures and skimping on them because of wear on the shutter is a false economy and missing the wood for the trees. This doesn't mean I waste exposures when I don't need to, but it certainly means that I don't shirk from taking a shot because I'm worried about destroying my shutter sooner than necessary.

    Wear and tear too for the AF motor, the aperture blades of the lens....

    Again, all part of operational expenses, and that's why cameras need to get serviced regularly and lenses CLA'd. And that's why part time freelance photographers who don't realise all this charge the little amount they do, whereas professionals who do need to factor all this into the equation struggle to remain price-competitive.

    Yes, you can check the number of times a camera's shutter has been released. Canon and Nikon both have the ability to do so when the camera is hooked up to their diagnostic software; the Kodak 14n camera allows you to check this on the camera LCD.

    Yes, shutter cycles are MTBF which means sh*t can still happen. Which means the solution is not to change shutters before an important shoot once the cycle is up (although you regular servicing should also ensure this) but you should have backup equipment. That's the best way to make sure you can keep shooting. And another cost and responsibility that undercutting freelancers get away from having to worry about.

    The F5 that hit a million shutter cycles. 15k to 30k a year? Even at 30k a year, it would take 33 years to achieve a million cycles. And the camera hasn't been around for a decade. Simple maths folks. In professional use, where the camera earns the photographer a living, 30k shots a year can be very little depending on what industry you are in.

    I have had a D1x shutter fail, although the diagnostics cleared the problem and Nikon replaced the shutter as a preventive/courtesy gesture.

    CKiang also raises a valid point. Film, S$9.50 for 36 exposures. Processing, S$10 mounted. John Prescott with egg on his face. Priceless.

    205/65 R15... big? Erm...

    And in which case... how about this scenario:

    I have heard a guy put 205/65 R15 tyres on his Nissan March. Try doing that on a performance car and you'll be broke in no time.

    With the March, just need to recharge your battery and change normal tyres. I think it's an utter waste of money to fit 205/65 R15 tyres when the car doesn't need them.

    When I drive, I take time to think and accerlerate and steer. So far the most I have done in almost 30 years of driving is 95km/h in a session and that was a big waste of petrol IMO.


    Actually, speed cameras have a track record of being inaccurate too...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian
    I hate to burst your bubble here ESPN but if you can't achieve a minimum of 70% good shots (keepers) when shooting sports professionally then you really aren't up to the job.

    This doesn't mean all shots will make it in to publication (eg shooting for a magazine, paper etc) as its normal that only the very best shot or shots will make it. However what it does mean is that each shot will be able to be saleable and meet the standard technical requirements for photography of the given sport as well as the standard requirements for professional sports photography (ie: correctly exposed, field boundaries level in background, suitable zones of focus etc.)

    Furthermore what Small Aperture appears to be advocating is an old old photographic 'rule' that you never take a shot unless you indend to. While I'd quibble with his 2 rolls per shoot statement as it's insufficient for professional purposes his point is quite valid in so far that too many people with Digitals just point and push and hope to get a good shot rather than pre-visualise and use their skill to create a good shot.

    Typical of the point 'n' push types are those low end wedding photographers who charge low fees, shoot hundreds of shots per wedding (400-600 seems common) and then offer perhaps 50-100 as a final proof set. True professional wedding photographers may take 200-220 shots (Medium format and or 135) and produce 60-100 stunning images for the client to select from.
    No worries Ian, my bubbles are made of iron, they don't burst unless you drill through with a diamond or a D2H

    Again, I'd like to quote what Jasphotography said, smallaperture was referring to the consumer side of shooters, which includes me, and many others, and like others, I fire off unncessarily before which I don't admit that every frame is a keeper either. The point I'm trying to raise is that I'm not a pro (and many others), 70% keepers rate is very applaudable and which is what the professionals should be achievable, I'll try my best to achieve it if I can, but I'm not a sports photography person though

    I do agree with smallaperture on the think before you shoot mentality, but with what Ckiang has mentioned, the moment is more important than the pre-visualization, I believe as a professional (not pointing fingers) that you would have maybe shot aviation before (assumption here, aka CSBF) if you spot the target/subject landing on a branch, you're trying to compose a target that moves and acts unsuspectedly and before you can shoot, it flies away. The moment is lost. Time is wasted, so what's a few shutter clicks and wastage of shots? I frankly don't think that most professionals can keep that kind of keeper rate, apart from knowing that at least you do

    Keeper rate list is something I'd want to keep to, but in real life not many amatuer photographers like me can achieve, in short as long as you're happy with what you can achieve it's something good enough. Your list of keeper rates I dare say I can only achieve one of the items on it

    Regarding your wedding photography comment, apparently you haven't seen how singapore couples really like to see more shots over quality shots, I've heard of couples insisting they want 360 shots (10 rolls) developed even though you're on digital. It doesn't matter if you get bokeh'd or angles right, they only want moment shots. Try doing that on a MF & 135 to get a near 360 shots. I'm not challenging you, but different countries and different kinds of people yields different types of photography

    And people do fire off regardless of the shot was nicely composed or not, just to get a lot of shots, and go home to choose one. This mentality is the "shoot first talk later", which I'd say works for fun shooters, but maybe definitely not for pros. The amatuers like me do that a lot, which is something I do agree that we need to cut down on.

    Nice talking to you

  9. #29
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    I do know if you sent your camera to Nikon/Canon, they are able to clock the counter for you. Alternatively, for Nikon F90x, F100 and F5, downloading the shooting data using the diagnostic software can also provide you with the shutter released counts.


    In response to smallaperture quote "So, those who buy used dSLR, watch out for those overused ones that are over a year old."

    I asked "Is it possible to check how many shutter have been released or how many shots have been taken in a DSLR?"

    I meant to mean if there is any counter visible to the public user via the LCD to evaluate how used a used DSLR is. Anyway, I doubt there is.

  10. #30

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    Hmm ... I highest record so far shooting 3 rolls of B&W films in 5 minutes!

    It all depends what you are shooting at and should not be considered as a waste of film whether it is digital or film, of course digital gives you all the advantages you needs.

    The important things to get out of the shots, is a picture that worth a priceless quality. You never know it when going to happen, just keep shooting ...

    Sometimes being too careful on planning the shots may just missed that fleeting and decisive moment .... don't b so kiamsiap lar
    AMPA * WPPI * J team

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasphotography
    I asked "Is it possible to check how many shutter have been released or how many shots have been taken in a DSLR?"

    I meant to mean if there is any counter visible to the public user via the LCD to evaluate how used a used DSLR is. Anyway, I doubt there is.
    yup, as Jed and I have mentioned, Nikon & Canon both yes. interesting snippet regarding the 14n, since it's waaay out of my league...

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ckiang
    What's wrong with 300 shots in an outing? If you consider a wedding shoot an outing, and the average whole-day wedding is typically 10 rolls, that's 360-380 shots. A waste of film? Of coz not.

    For other kinds of shoots, it varies. I have known people who shot like 5 rolls in an outing. Waste of film? Again, of coz not. Getting the shot is more important. Film is cheap, the moment is not.

    And this "300 shot syndrome" isn't exclusive to digital. It's all up to the individual.

    Regards
    CK
    agree.... i may be just a small time amateur photographer, but i ever clocked up to 10 to 15 rolls (around 400 plus shots) on only two important occasions. i usually average about 3 to 5 rolls for a school event (unless they forbid me to do so for $$ reasons)
    Last edited by mervlam; 23rd February 2004 at 11:44 AM.

  13. #33
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    Geez, I must be a sinner then, I took 800+ shots for my company's D&D within 6 hours.

    And no, I am not just trigger happy. Out of these, 600+ are keepers, it consists of many games events, speeches and prize presentation, lucky draw, table shots and individual/group shots.

    I do agree with some of the posters on the keeper rate and composition. But really, the number of shots per shooting greatly depends on the nature of the work involved.

    High shot rate == Lower Keep rate == Shoot abundant then choose?

    And yes, speed cameras tend to bobo a bit more...

  14. #34
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    AJ23, dont worry la. so many different events, all have to go into records ma, if got 10 separate "games", each one 5 photos - already 50 lor. then if you shoot for each person playing in the game...

    time to chimp!

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed
    the Kodak 14n camera allows you to check this on the camera LCD.
    oppsss, missed this.

    ya, this is the answer I wanted to know.... LCD on the camera to assess shutter counts. So, Kodak DSLR does have such feature ehhh... cool!

  16. #36
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    How to define a keeper shot?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomshen
    How to define a keeper shot?
    I think only you can define your keepers. They're your pictures are they not?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit
    I think only you can define your keepers. They're your pictures are they not?
    Then even a newbie can claim a 90% keeper rate coz everyone's expectation varies.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomshen
    Then even a newbie can claim a 90% keeper rate coz everyone's expectation varies.
    Of course. Keeper rate is a subjective issue. It will help if people develop some editing skills. That'll certainly raise some expectations.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomshen
    Then even a newbie can claim a 90% keeper rate coz everyone's expectation varies.
    And your point being?

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