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Thread: Shoot alot on a dSLR

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    Default Shoot alot on a dSLR

    I have heard a guy fired 300 shots in a single outing. Try doing that in a film SLR and you'll be broke in no time.

    With dSLR, just need to recharge your battery and erase the dud shots. I think it's an utter waste of time and effort.

    When I shoot, I take time to think and adjust and compose. So far the most I have done in almost 30 years of shooting is 2 rolls in a session and that was a big waste of film IMO.

    At the rate of 200 shots a session would mean 10,000 shots a year. In 3 years, the camera would more or less have reached the design life of the shutter and mirror - the camera would be more or less finished. Thus wearing out an expensive gear in a short 3 years, or probably, the shutter and mirror could be changed if it's ever worth it. So, those who buy used dSLR, watch out for those overused ones that are over a year old. Wear and tear too for the AF motor, the aperture blades of the lens.... also watch out for those used lenses bought from dSLR owner too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smallaperture
    I have heard a guy fired 300 shots in a single outing. Try doing that in a film SLR and you'll be broke in no time.

    With dSLR, just need to recharge your battery and erase the dud shots. I think it's an utter waste of time and effort.

    When I shoot, I take time to think and adjust and compose. So far the most I have done in almost 30 years of shooting is 2 rolls in a session and that was a big waste of film IMO.

    At the rate of 200 shots a session would mean 10,000 shots a year. In 3 years, the camera would more or less have reached the design life of the shutter and mirror - the camera would be more or less finished. Thus wearing out an expensive gear in a short 3 years, or probably, the shutter and mirror could be changed if it's ever worth it. So, those who buy used dSLR, watch out for those overused ones that are over a year old. Wear and tear too for the AF motor, the aperture blades of the lens.... also watch out for those used lenses bought from dSLR owner too.
    Doing max 2 rolls per session still doesn't warranty all the shots are keepers. And let's see u shoot 1 roll per sports action, let's say, football for example.

    Different needs require different shooting style, don't impose your one shot one kill everywhere, it doesn't work, the original idea for creating DSLRs was the ability to shoot continously without worrying on loading film, and mostly those who shoot with DSLRs won't have much issues with replacing the shutter when it's damanged, the D2H's shutter is built based on the F5 (max known shots is 1 million++ to date) and the replacement fee is only $400/-.

    Importantly is, FM, AF cameras are just the same, just because you shoot less it doesn't mean it dies slower, when Murphy's law strike, it will die even if it doesn't have to.

    Try starting something more worthwhile to discuss about rather than the " I do this instead of that " and expect everybody to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Try starting something more worthwhile to discuss about rather than the " I do this instead of that " and expect everybody to follow.
    Check his post history and you'll notice the types of threads he starts. Given his constant harping on his 'experience' and various other pronouncements but without any 'proof' of his ability in the form of his own photographs to illustrate his points, I'm beginning to suspect that this is a 15-year kid from Hardwarezone with too much time....

    All I can say is that if someone claims to use 'only' 2 rolls of film in a session and finds it to be a 'waste of film', this only means that his photographic skills aren't up to scratch. I've on occasion shot more than 2 rolls of film in a session and never found it to be a 'waste of film'.

    The real pros do not ask how much film you used but "Did you get the shot?" (quote from Dewitt Jones)

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    well, I thought smallaperture has given us some thoughts to really think about:

    overused of a DSLR and buying a used/overused DSLR.

    I sensed that smallaperture was projecting his thought more towards the common users and not so much so on professional photographers.

    It is quite common, or so I feel, that some users (excluding professional) out there are shutter releasing more than necessary. Why not since this is free but you never know, as smallaperture has rightly pointed out, shutter fails you when you least expected.

    So, the relatively low cost for a replacement may become irrelevant if you are caught with a broken shutter on the top of the Himalayas or in the mid of the congo forest.

    DSLR based on Nikon F5 body may have the most reliable shutter but I won't commit to say the same for Canon, Fuji DSLR or even Nikon D100/D70. If I am not wrong, Tomshen's D60 Shutter broke down en route to Nepal.


    Quote Originally Posted by smallaperture
    So, those who buy used dSLR, watch out for those overused ones that are over a year old.
    Is it possible to check how many shutter have been released or how many shots have been taken in a DSLR?

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    Murphy strikes at the worst possible times... even for low used cams.

    Anyway, as most mechnical parts have rated cycles before failure, it's only the avarage time before it fails... it may fail even when it's new or it may exceed that figure by 10x. To be on the safe side, it's better to replace the shutter/mirror mechnism before an important shoot and when the cycle is up.

    smallaperture is right for my case as I have fired my Digicam/DSLR at rates that I would never do for my flim cam.... then again I'm only in photography for fun.

    BTW, what's the rated shutter/mirror lifespan? F5 is about 100K right?
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    The problem is not the high shutter count. Put another way, i would say that dSLR gives you the freedom to shoot as many as you ought to, while film tends to cause (almost) all of us to undershoot. The issue is the heck-care-it's-digital attitude.

    i handed my dSLR once to a friend (who is on CS and i hope he's not reading this) who shot a couple of 'nonsense' shots. i just 'critiqued' his work on the LCD, and he lighthearted replied that since it's digital can 'anyhow shoot' while he's more careful for each shot with film.

    300 shots for an event may be too much, or it may be too little, or just right. It depends on how much care he put into his shots.

    Put in perspective, the F5 which clocked a million shots - i think the yearly shot count should be in the 15k to 30k range, way above the '10,000' estimate in the first post.

    Interestingly, tomshen is the only person i know who bought a dSLR new and used it to the point of shutter failure. (Coincidentally, my 10D's shutter failed in Nepal too, about the same time last year, but it was premature failure, way below expected lifespan. Murphy must have been in Nepal last October.)
    Last edited by ST1100; 22nd February 2004 at 05:11 PM.

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    If you get what you want without overbudgeting, it is never a waste of money. But to be environmentally friendly, always think before you shoot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasphotography
    Is it possible to check how many shutter have been released or how many shots have been taken in a DSLR?
    yes, it is possible. i got a shock knowing my shutter tripped over 59K times when i requested for it while servicing at canon's service center. since the legendary unit of F5 was clocked at a 10^6 figure (1 million), that may mean there's some invisible counter only the staff know how to coax out, and it's not a 5 digit number, which is 10^5, which limits up to 10,000 only, and not more. i presume (without evidence ) that the number may be stored in a binary code somewhere, since 2^20 => 1048576....

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    until now, i'm on film discipline.. i try as much to compose my shots in be mind before squeezing off the shutter. for sports and fast paced events, i normally have a set of ideal compositions placed in my 'RAM' to look for. but still, special moments need fast reflexes, which i'm still working on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasphotography
    well, I thought smallaperture has given us some thoughts to really think about:

    overused of a DSLR and buying a used/overused DSLR.

    I sensed that smallaperture was projecting his thought more towards the common users and not so much so on professional photographers.

    It is quite common, or so I feel, that some users (excluding professional) out there are shutter releasing more than necessary. Why not since this is free but you never know, as smallaperture has rightly pointed out, shutter fails you when you least expected.

    So, the relatively low cost for a replacement may become irrelevant if you are caught with a broken shutter on the top of the Himalayas or in the mid of the congo forest.

    DSLR based on Nikon F5 body may have the most reliable shutter but I won't commit to say the same for Canon, Fuji DSLR or even Nikon D100/D70. If I am not wrong, Tomshen's D60 Shutter broke down en route to Nepal.

    Is it possible to check how many shutter have been released or how many shots have been taken in a DSLR?
    If you need to worry about the amount of shutter the camera has released and busily counting the lifespan of the shutter, wouldn't it be a total spoilt-sport in owning a camera and enjoying the usage? And like you mentioned, common users have a habit of squeezing it off as if firing a GPMG and it might die, but since they're shooting for the fun of it, it won't hurt since you weren't doing paid shots. The shutter can be replaced after the shoot. Like Harlequin put in his signature, "Shoot first, talk later".

    As mentioned, you can bring a new FM camera or a new D2H to the top of Himalayas and it will still spoil (based on Murphy's law). It doesn't mean shooting conservatively will prevent it from dying sooner, which in my first post already mentioned. Although cheap in replacement, yes, but if it's to die, it will die (sounds like a china king in ancient stories eh? )

    Myth's D60 is a good example of Murphy's law. I've known of people's D60 already hitting the max shutter life and is still going strong. The problem here is not worrying about the shutter life, but to know that servicing + regular check up ensures better security when shooting, but again I stress that Murphy's law will strike anytime, and there's nothing to do about it. Not only Canon/Fuji/Nikon's, I'm pretty sure any RF/MF would suffer from breakdown due to Murphy's law (I wanna strangle Murphy )

    Yes, you're able to check how many times your camera has fired, the XPan has a counter on the body, for Nikon there's a counter somewhere inside the camera similiar for Canon, and of course since the respective brands built it, naturally they'd have the tools to fish it out

    And I'd really love to see smallaperture shoot sports at night with small apertures, I'm really interested in seeing only 36-38 exposure with all keepers for a 1 hour football game. Looking forward to it

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    What's wrong with 300 shots in an outing? If you consider a wedding shoot an outing, and the average whole-day wedding is typically 10 rolls, that's 360-380 shots. A waste of film? Of coz not.

    For other kinds of shoots, it varies. I have known people who shot like 5 rolls in an outing. Waste of film? Again, of coz not. Getting the shot is more important. Film is cheap, the moment is not.

    And this "300 shot syndrome" isn't exclusive to digital. It's all up to the individual.

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    Default GPMG shooting sydrome

    If it cost only 400 bucks or so to replace the shutter, then it doesn't really matter. It becomes just another wear and tear part, just like a car battery, tyres, etc. when the time or km is up. 4 pieces of tyres cost more than that shutter. BTW, I use small apertures but big tyres (205/65R15)

    So, for a D100 or D70 for that matter, like the F80, may I suggest you replace the shutter at say 30,000 cycles or 50,000 so that it doesn't fail on you. This is called Predictive Maintenance. This is more for those who depends on photo for a living. For me, it's play, play.

    Routine maintenance is well, routine in automobile, almost not heard of in building structures. How about applying to camera bodies?

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    essentially...machines are made to be used. whether buying new or used, i will still try to use it all the way n trash the living daylights out of it..its either the machine die out first or i die first...for a used machine, just bargain for an acceptably lower price, thats all. now everyone stop thinking about shutter lifespan and start takign pictures! =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by smallaperture
    If it cost only 400 bucks or so to replace the shutter, then it doesn't really matter. It becomes just another wear and tear part, just like a car battery, tyres, etc. when the time or km is up. 4 pieces of tyres cost more than that shutter. BTW, I use small apertures but big tyres (205/65R15)

    So, for a D100 or D70 for that matter, like the F80, may I suggest you replace the shutter at say 30,000 cycles or 50,000 so that it doesn't fail on you. This is called Predictive Maintenance. This is more for those who depends on photo for a living. For me, it's play, play.

    Routine maintenance is well, routine in automobile, almost not heard of in building structures. How about applying to camera bodies?
    Big tyres are also subjected to Murphy's law.

    And again, Murphy's law will kick in even if you replace the shutter once it hits 100 shots, there's no failsafe, if it kicks in, it kicks in. D100/D70, 30,000, 50,000 as long as Murphy's law exists, you're in the L**L status. (Guys should know what term I'm using and why I censored it )

    Who told you there's no routine maintenance on building structures? Guess again.

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    Well, I cannot say that replacing the shutter/mirror at its due time does not up your chances of it not failing. That is what maintenance is all about isn't it? It's not to guarantee that it will not fail, (no one can guarantee that, it's a natural law - quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's Principle of Uncertainty) but it does give u a better chance of not failing.

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    300?

    BTW, have you shot any events before?


    Quote Originally Posted by smallaperture
    I have heard a guy fired 300 shots in a single outing. Try doing that in a film SLR and you'll be broke in no time.

    With dSLR, just need to recharge your battery and erase the dud shots. I think it's an utter waste of time and effort.

    When I shoot, I take time to think and adjust and compose. So far the most I have done in almost 30 years of shooting is 2 rolls in a session and that was a big waste of film IMO.

    At the rate of 200 shots a session would mean 10,000 shots a year. In 3 years, the camera would more or less have reached the design life of the shutter and mirror - the camera would be more or less finished. Thus wearing out an expensive gear in a short 3 years, or probably, the shutter and mirror could be changed if it's ever worth it. So, those who buy used dSLR, watch out for those overused ones that are over a year old. Wear and tear too for the AF motor, the aperture blades of the lens.... also watch out for those used lenses bought from dSLR owner too.

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    Some Centra African Tribes believe in spirits that are everywhere.

    In the industrial and information era, we have a branch of mathematics called Statistics. It helps us in a tremendous way. Warranty period is based on this branch of mathematics. 3 years for most cars. Only 1 year for dSLR.

    Most of us would like to believe that we are luckier than our neigbour. Most of the industrialised world and most businesses make use of statistics in one way or other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Doing max 2 rolls per session still doesn't warranty all the shots are keepers. And let's see u shoot 1 roll per sports action, let's say, football for example.
    I hate to burst your bubble here ESPN but if you can't achieve a minimum of 70% good shots (keepers) when shooting sports professionally then you really aren't up to the job.

    This doesn't mean all shots will make it in to publication (eg shooting for a magazine, paper etc) as its normal that only the very best shot or shots will make it. However what it does mean is that each shot will be able to be saleable and meet the standard technical requirements for photography of the given sport as well as the standard requirements for professional sports photography (ie: correctly exposed, field boundaries level in background, suitable zones of focus etc.)

    Furthermore what Small Aperture appears to be advocating is an old old photographic 'rule' that you never take a shot unless you indend to. While I'd quibble with his 2 rolls per shoot statement as it's insufficient for professional purposes his point is quite valid in so far that too many people with Digitals just point and push and hope to get a good shot rather than pre-visualise and use their skill to create a good shot.

    Typical of the point 'n' push types are those low end wedding photographers who charge low fees, shoot hundreds of shots per wedding (400-600 seems common) and then offer perhaps 50-100 as a final proof set. True professional wedding photographers may take 200-220 shots (Medium format and or 135) and produce 60-100 stunning images for the client to select from.
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    Ian, you're talking about "keeper rate", aren't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sehsuan
    Ian, you're talking about "keeper rate", aren't you?
    SS Yep I am .. ie: a minimum of 70% shots that are good enough for publication assuming all of your good shots were published.

    Keeper rates to aim for:

    Sports: 70-90% (it gets easier with the years and varies with the sport)
    Weddings: 80-90%
    Commercial Product: 85-95%
    Street: 80%
    Wildlife: 50%
    Astrophotography: 10% (even that's hard unless it's the moon or bright planets)
    Macro (still life) 80-90%
    Macro (moving beasties) 40-50%
    Sunrises/Sunsets: 80%
    Landscapes: 90%
    Architectural exteriors: 80%
    Architectural interiors: 80%

    The Ang Moh from Hell
    Professional Photography - many are called, few are chosen!

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